DCC starting out - I'm not a techy but so far its been worth it!

[halsey]

25 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

Sorry have to be blunt here again, I have just gone through the whole thread again and it’s been a yo yo experience for you, I get the impression that you have not been fully set on the idea of DCC so let’s see what can be done to settle your concerns.

 

These thoughts relate to your plan in general I wouldn’t go this way but Bering in mind your parameters my thoughts are thus. I would put IRJs at every frog end of the points but not always both rails. Where you have dead end sidings you could put them on frog rails only. It appears your going to only rely on the blades of the point to conduct power ok for the interim but may fail in time, normally I bond these with wires but your trying to keep wiring down. Dispense with a bus and run a bus to each end, not as a ring but in any event your need some form of a bus, even a simple one. Feeders from this bus should go to each toe end of a point. Where you have two parallel tracks just run a jumper from each rail to the next parallel rail. if your putting motors on each point these will need wires so from DC there be no difference. Solder all metal rail joiners. Looking at your plan you would only need one command station and no boosters for trains only not including anything for points. But from what I have read and a quick skim on the other thread these issues would equally apply to DC or DCC so I ask the question should you build anything at all ? But that said if I lived closer I would be happy to help you on this front but there must be a member who’s nearby that can help where you may find it physically hard.

 

to members let’s help this poor chap out as he clearly needs help as he is finding this all daunting and a somewhat uphill struggle.

 

YES I should be building a model railway as in general terms I love it - hence my commitment and focus - I am fortunate in that I have a great location in which to do so, loads of time and "enough" money.

 

As a basic principle wiring above boards is do-able I am pretty good with soldering but any wiring I can do pre laying out (to address point blade issues?) would be good to understand - In summary my concern is when I was asking what to do the overwhelming advice (from a group of people) was DCC is simpler once committed this seemed to change and a different group started saying/suggesting the opposite.

 

It has been suggested that I should have gone slower and done more research BUT if you have no knowledge from what standpoint to you gain it and filter it.

 

I am not an academic nor do I like reading that much I don't like travelling (to shops or shows) or sitting down for hours at my laptop - this was therefore the chosen/best way to go which worked very well last time and I'm sure will this time as well - your last comment to "members" is appreciated but I'm truly OK - I just need to recommit and get on with it...………….

 

Thanks

[Philou]

@halsey, hello,

 

I've been following your trials and tribulations regarding DC or DCC. I would say this: You have gone so far now as to buy into DCC - don't just stop now without at least trying it out. You have the starter pack so lay a short section of track, a couple of points and see how you get on. From what I can see, you will not have bought sound chips (well not at the price that I saw ). These can always be changed later. Sound is what sold me into DCC.

 

Regarding the wiring - and this will apply to DC or DCC: If you rely solely on the point blades to feed sidings you MAY experience bad contacts there eventually - it does happen regardless whether DC or DCC- hence the advice for additional wiring.

 

Insofar as I understand, underboard wiring may be difficult for you - I am not sure whether you will be able to avoid any underboard wiring at all - but this would be the same whether DC or DCC. However, you can wire everything from the top - it would from a certain point of view be less aesthetically pleasing, that is all.

 

You will need to lay two wires of a reasonably large diameter (many use 13amp ring main wire) that has a surface area of 2.5mm². You can use any two colours but I'm intending to use blue and brown as my 'bus' - the 'ring main'. For convenience, you can lay your 'bus' on the inside face of your baseboards going left and right from where you intend to have your controller(s). If you're intending to feed power to your points then you will need to lay at least one other wire (in another colour) as your common return for these. This too will go left and right from your controller(s). These wires will go as far as your angled board section as, unless I have mis-understood, this is a lift-up section to enable access into the central operating well, and will need to terminate either side.

 

You can take smaller gauge wire from your 'bus' to feed your track - remembering to keep the polarity the same. This you will need to do whether DC or DCC. My advice would be to solder the wires to the outer edges of the rails - if you want to use power connectors that is your choice - not forgetting to remove any suppressors that may be inside the connector. Don't forget to leave a gap in the underlay to pass any wires underneath the track. I have assumed that you will use underlay - if not, you will need to remove a little bit of the webbing (the plastic bit between the sleepers and not the sleepers themselves) to allow the wire to slide underneath. DON'T bare the wire under any rail so as to avoid shorts. How you join the finer gauge wires to the 'bus' I leave to you. There are options - remove a little bit of the insulation and solder directly, use a cable connector (used in the motor trade) or cut the 'bus' and use a Wago connector (a modern form of the domino screw connector) no soldering or screwing required. You will need to allow some slack in the 'bus' for cutting.

 

For the pointwork, you will need to feed two wires from a point switch (passing contact switch) from your operating centre so that your solenoid point motor will actuate 'left' and 'right'. The return wire you can take back to the single wire 'bus' laid for this purpose, not forgetting to allow space under the rails to take your wires to the points.

 

Regarding pointwork being operated by DCC, insofar as I understand as I haven't got to this stage yet, you can have four (maybe more) points connected to a module. The module would be connected to a separate 'bus' comprising two wires therefore obviating the need of taking a 'left' and 'right' feed to your points all the way to your operating centre - a definite advantage of DCC over DC. You will not avoid any wiring but it would be reduced. This could be for another day when you become more confident with DCC.

 

How you deal with the surface cabling will be for you - subterfuge and disguise will be the order of the day .

 

Unless I've got things hopelessly wrong, I think that's it from me, other than to wish you good luck.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[Andymsa]

3 hours ago, halsey said:

 

YES I should be building a model railway as in general terms I love it - hence my commitment and focus - I am fortunate in that I have a great location in which to do so, loads of time and "enough" money.

 

As a basic principle wiring above boards is do-able I am pretty good with soldering but any wiring I can do pre laying out (to address point blade issues?) would be good to understand - In summary my concern is when I was asking what to do the overwhelming advice (from a group of people) was DCC is simpler once committed this seemed to change and a different group started saying/suggesting the opposite.

 

It has been suggested that I should have gone slower and done more research BUT if you have no knowledge from what standpoint to you gain it and filter it.

 

I am not an academic nor do I like reading that much I don't like travelling (to shops or shows) or sitting down for hours at my laptop - this was therefore the chosen/best way to go which worked very well last time and I'm sure will this time as well - your last comment to "members" is appreciated but I'm truly OK - I just need to recommit and get on with it...………….

 

Thanks

 

It's good to hear that you got the focus still, looking at previous posts it came across to me that you were on the verge of giving up. That's why I suggested a small test build to find methods best suited to you and gain understanding. But ask a group of people the same question and we all have different take on things and can understand your frustration. 

 

In reply to your question on bonding point blades. Basically I loop a small wire from the blade to the rail it pushes against. The application of this varies from point to point in my situation as I use three different track manufacturers but with peco points I use the grove on the bottom side of the blade by soldering 0.7 copper wire and then soldering a small length of cable to it. But don't solder right next to the pivot point as this will heat the plastic to much and effect the pivot of the blade.

 

regards

[halsey]

1 hour ago, Philou said:

@halsey, hello,

 

I've been following your trials and tribulations regarding DC or DCC. I would say this: You have gone so far now as to buy into DCC - don't just stop now without at least trying it out. You have the starter pack so lay a short section of track, a couple of points and see how you get on. From what I can see, you will not have bought sound chips (well not at the price that I saw ). These can always be changed later. Sound is what sold me into DCC.

 

Regarding the wiring - and this will apply to DC or DCC: If you rely solely on the point blades to feed sidings you MAY experience bad contacts there eventually - it does happen regardless whether DC or DCC- hence the advice for additional wiring.

 

Insofar as I understand, underboard wiring may be difficult for you - I am not sure whether you will be able to avoid any underboard wiring at all - but this would be the same whether DC or DCC. However, you can wire everything from the top - it would from a certain point of view be less aesthetically pleasing, that is all.

 

You will need to lay two wires of a reasonably large diameter (many use 13amp ring main wire) that has a surface area of 2.5mm². You can use any two colours but I'm intending to use blue and brown as my 'bus' - the 'ring main'. For convenience, you can lay your 'bus' on the inside face of your baseboards going left and right from where you intend to have your controller(s). If you're intending to feed power to your points then you will need to lay at least one other wire (in another colour) as your common return for these. This too will go left and right from your controller(s). These wires will go as far as your angled board section as, unless I have mis-understood, this is a lift-up section to enable access into the central operating well, and will need to terminate either side.

 

You can take smaller gauge wire from your 'bus' to feed your track - remembering to keep the polarity the same. This you will need to do whether DC or DCC. My advice would be to solder the wires to the outer edges of the rails - if you want to use power connectors that is your choice - not forgetting to remove any suppressors that may be inside the connector. Don't forget to leave a gap in the underlay to pass any wires underneath the track. I have assumed that you will use underlay - if not, you will need to remove a little bit of the webbing (the plastic bit between the sleepers and not the sleepers themselves) to allow the wire to slide underneath. DON'T bare the wire under any rail so as to avoid shorts. How you join the finer gauge wires to the 'bus' I leave to you. There are options - remove a little bit of the insulation and solder directly, use a cable connector (used in the motor trade) or cut the 'bus' and use a Wago connector (a modern form of the domino screw connector) no soldering or screwing required. You will need to allow some slack in the 'bus' for cutting.

 

For the pointwork, you will need to feed two wires from a point switch (passing contact switch) from your operating centre so that your solenoid point motor will actuate 'left' and 'right'. The return wire you can take back to the single wire 'bus' laid for this purpose, not forgetting to allow space under the rails to take your wires to the points.

 

Regarding pointwork being operated by DCC, insofar as I understand as I haven't got to this stage yet, you can have four (maybe more) points connected to a module. The module would be connected to a separate 'bus' comprising two wires therefore obviating the need of taking a 'left' and 'right' feed to your points all the way to your operating centre - a definite advantage of DCC over DC. You will not avoid any wiring but it would be reduced. This could be for another day when you become more confident with DCC.

 

How you deal with the surface cabling will be for you - subterfuge and disguise will be the order of the day .

 

Unless I've got things hopelessly wrong, I think that's it from me, other than to wish you good luck.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

Many thanks for the time and effort here - there does seem to be a common theme developing which is certainly helping me and will enable me to do point mods on the workbench and lay track with isolators included all of which will save buggeration later.

 

My use of 10mm XPS under the track should help with any subterfuge.

 

New DCC concepts soldering iron just ordered from AGR

[grriff]

10 hours ago, halsey said:

I am now seriously considering reselling my current £450+ investment in DCC before I commit to it as I don't now see any wiring benefits at all.

 

My physical constraints are a major concern and are already driving wiring above boards (hence laying on 10mm XPS) and needing as few wires/complications as possible as reach is a real issue.

 

If anyone has time could I have advice from a DCC user as to how I need to wire this layout bearing in mind everything is above boards

 

I really do need some advice now as I can easily go either way - the money isn't the issue I need to make the right decision based on the amount of work involved which I thought I had done.

Halsey

My neighbour is in a similar position to you. He is not at all teccy and has a layout about the size of yours but with three ovals of track and many sidings  I helped him with his wiring which consists of two feeds (using Peco clips) to the two outer ovals and point clips (https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/power-control/dcc-accessories/Hornby-digital-electric-point-clips.html) fitted to Peco setrack points. It is far from best practice but it works in an outside shed with three locos running around the ovals.  As with DC, keep the tracks and wheels clean. In my experience with his layout you do not need complex wiring. The only problem is fitting the point clips is a bit fiddly. Looking at your layout I'd put a feed into each oval and fit point clips where needed, that is where you want both tracks 'live' as opposed to only the one set for the route. If you aren't bothered about sidings being isolated where the point isn't set to them, you don't need to fit clips. I'm not familiar with 'lIve' frog points but I suspect they will need more complex wiring (as they do for DC),

Edited November 28, 2019 by grriff
tack to track. Comment re point clips

[halsey]

18 minutes ago, grriff said:

Halsey

My neighbour is in a similar position to you. He is not at all teccy and has a layout about the size of yours but with three ovals of track and many sidings  I helped him with his wiring which consists of two feeds (using Peco clips) to the two outer ovals and point clips (https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/power-control/dcc-accessories/Hornby-digital-electric-point-clips.html) fitted to Peco setrack points. It is far from best practice but it works in an outside shed with three locos running around the ovals.  As with DC, keep the tacks and wheels clean. In my experience with his layout you do not need complex wiring. The only problem is fitting the point clips is a bit fiddly. Looking at your layout I'd put a feed into each oval and leave it at that.

 

I will definitely get one pack and have a play - I'm not a Hornby fan and am always suspicious of quick fixes but must be worth a look - many thanks

[boxbrownie]

22 minutes ago, grriff said:

Halsey

My neighbour is in a similar position to you. He is not at all teccy and has a layout about the size of yours but with three ovals of track and many sidings  I helped him with his wiring which consists of two feeds (using Peco clips) to the two outer ovals and point clips (https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/power-control/dcc-accessories/Hornby-digital-electric-point-clips.html) fitted to Peco setrack points. It is far from best practice but it works in an outside shed with three locos running around the ovals.  As with DC, keep the tacks and wheels clean. In my experience with his layout you do not need complex wiring. The only problem is fitting the point clips is a bit fiddly. Looking at your layout I'd put a feed into each oval and leave it at that.

I may well be in a similar position to Halsey, about to start building a new smaller layout but due to failing health and dexterity issues I can no longer “model engineer” as I used to so I took the plunge and investigated some alternative way, I decided after much deliberation to build the layout using the Trix ready ballasted sectional track (which actually looks really very good) and to keep wiring to a minimum follow the Trix/Marklin general instructions for DCC and just power the track and take all power for the motorised points from the track (beneath the ballast) so the only wiring is to a few well placed feeds to the main track, all the points are fully live and self isolating, it basically just needs assembling like an old fashioned “train set” would, sure it isn’t the cheapest way to model but it’ll be reliable and will work, after all it’s only money! 

Edited November 28, 2019 by boxbrownie

[halsey]

10 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

I may well be in a similar position to Halsey, about to start building a new smaller layout but due to failing health and dexterity issues I can no longer “model engineer” as I used to so I took the plunge and investigated some alternative way, I decided after much deliberation to build the layout using the Trix ready ballasted sectional track (which actually looks really very good) and to keep wiring to a minimum follow the Trix/Marklin general instructions for DCC and just power the track and take all power for the motorised points from the track (beneath the ballast) so the only wiring is to a few well placed feeds to the main track, all the points are fully live and self isolating, it basically just needs assembling like an old fashioned “train set” would, sure it isn’t the cheapest way to model but it’ll be reliable and will work, after all it’s only money! 

 

exactly - as the saying goes - "there are no pockets in shrouds"...……………...

[Free At Last]

33 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

exactly - as the saying goes - "there are no pockets in shrouds"...……………...

They can be specified though...

[traction]

Hi,

 

This photo shows the Hornby point clips fitted.

 

Also a short video, this is a basic layout for children to play with at exhibitions and for me to test stuff on, hopefully get it finished soon!
There are only two wires from the Hornby Select to the track.

Point clips have been fitted to all of the points.

The points are fitted with Peco low Power point motors fitted direct to the points, these are controlled by the Peco passing contact switches via a CDU.

All really basic DCC stuff and two wires, I do it this way initially so I can have things running quickly and see if I like that track layout, it saves lots of  soldering wires to track if I decide to change the track plan at any time.

 

 

Hope this helps

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[halsey]

9 hours ago, traction said:

Hi,

 

This photo shows the Hornby point clips fitted.

 

Also a short video, this is a basic layout for children to play with at exhibitions and for me to test stuff on, hopefully get it finished soon!
There are only two wires from the Hornby Select to the track.

Point clips have been fitted to all of the points.

The points are fitted with Peco low Power point motors fitted direct to the points, these are controlled by the Peco passing contact switches via a CDU.

All really basic DCC stuff and two wires, I do it this way initially so I can have things running quickly and see if I like that track layout, it saves lots of  soldering wires to track if I decide to change the track plan at any time.

 

 

Hope this helps

 

Cheers

 

Ian

 

Apparently point clips don't work on Peco streamline track just Hornby and Peco set track?????

[boxbrownie]

Ian......love the sounds with Thomas, did you write the “narration” to the chip,yourself or is it commercially available? 
 

As I am going to run a Thomas “commemorative blue metal flake” version on my new layout for the kiddlywinks.

[traction]

The sound file was a complete one pre-installed.

 

Why don’t the clips fit streamline points?

Ive bought a pack of them and bent them to fit in an N-gauge point so I can’t see why the wouldn’t be able to fit.

 

cheers

 

Ian

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, traction said:

The sound file was a complete one pre-installed.

 

Why don’t the clips fit streamline points?

Ive bought a pack of them and bent them to fit in an N-gauge point so I can’t see why the wouldn’t be able to fit.

 

cheers

 

Ian

Oh, great....;where did it come from please?

[traction]

It was a one off special that was done for me. A very long time Ago now.

I was told it wouldn't be done again. Sorry 

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[halsey]

2 hours ago, traction said:

The sound file was a complete one pre-installed.

 

Why don’t the clips fit streamline points?

Ive bought a pack of them and bent them to fit in an N-gauge point so I can’t see why the wouldn’t be able to fit.

 

cheers

 

Ian

 

Apparently they do so I have some coming next few days...………….

[traction]

Cool, I find it a great way of getting the layout up and running very quickly.

I was thinking about the wiring above the baseboard, you could use thin copper tape either side of the track and solder wires from the track to the copper 'go's

The copper tape can easily be painted over or hidden with scenery.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

 

[pauliebanger]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Oh, great....;where did it come from please?

Sodor?

Edited November 29, 2019 by pauliebanger

[halsey]

OK down to the nitty gritty...…….

 

I am going to run a bus wire (twin HD speaker wire) in 40mm domestic conduit fitted around the central control area on the vertical face of the layout board framing so I have easy access to it and run "droppers" within the XPS foam to that conduit.

 

What is the best way to make the connection between droppers and bus??

 

I expect there will be about 12 of these spread around the "loop" and sidings - do the small car type plastic push close connectors work OK??

 

I want to lose all of this within the conduit when the cover is clipped back on.  

 

Thanks

[WIMorrison]

I use IDC connectors (which is what I think you mean?) These are what I use and despite what naysayers will advise I have never in many years had an issue. I have also used them in repairs for much more critical wiring that a model railway  

 

 

But I don't think I would be using speaker wire, probably not heavy enough. I would suggest 1mm mains lighting cable, or even larger, but 2.5mm power cable is possibly overkill for a  smaller layout. Also running if running the 2 wires in close proximity, which is what you will be doing, then you should really put a loose twist of 3 - 4 twists per foot into the bus wire. If you keep the wires a few centimetres apart then you wouldn't need the twist.

[halsey]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

I use IDC connectors (which is what I think you mean?) These are what I use and despite what naysayers will advise I have never in many years had an issue. I have also used them in repairs for much more critical wiring that a model railway  

 

 

But I don't think I would be using speaker wire, probably not heavy enough. I would suggest 1mm mains lighting cable, or even larger, but 2.5mm power cable is possibly overkill for a  smaller layout. Also running if running the 2 wires in close proximity, which is what you will be doing, then you should really put a loose twist of 3 - 4 twists per foot into the bus wire. If you keep the wires a few centimetres apart then you wouldn't need the twist.

 

I think the main prejudice about these connectors is in cars they are subject to vibration and sometimes condensation - not the case here

 

Rest assured I am using VERY HD/Pro speaker wire that I happen to already have a lot of - its 2mm'ish per strand!

[Nigelcliffe]

20 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

I think the main prejudice about these connectors is in cars they are subject to vibration and sometimes condensation - not the case here

 

 

I have a concern about such connectors when they are used with random wire sizes.   If used with the correct wire sizes for the connector they work well.   Used with the wrong wire sizes and connectivity is questionable.    Each connector has a wire size appropriate for it. 

 

Unfortunately there are a lot of model railways wired with "whatever I had lying around" or "I got this from my grandad's army service decommissioning of a signals station",  or "have this wire left over from something else",   etc.. 

 

The speaker wire is an example.  Yes, decent speaker wire (eg. the old classic QED 79 strand, or something better/newer) is going to be fine for model railway currents.  But you now have to find out if its the "right" size (diameter of conductor, strand count and diameter of insulation)  to suit a quick clip connector.   If a dropper is to be a different size, then the clip connector needs to be one designed for a larger "bus" and smaller "dropper" (such types of connector exist).  

 

 

- Nigel

 

[WIMorrison]

1 hour ago, halsey said:

 

I think the main prejudice about these connectors is in cars they are subject to vibration and sometimes condensation - not the case here

...

If they vibrate off in a car then either wrong size has been used or they haven’t been fitted correctly. I have used them in everything from main battle tanks to earth movers through almost anything you can imagine in between in my lifetime and I have yet to see one fail when the right size is used and it is fitted properly.

 

if you are concerned about condensation then use the waterproof ones - they will work anywhere.

 

Did you know that the telephone system - including your FTTC broadband connection - relies on IDC connectors?

 

Now that signal is much more susceptible to electrical noise and damp than anything on a model railway

Edited December 6, 2019 by WIMorrison
I hate autocorrect - keeps getting it wrong!

[Harlequin]

Just to open the discussion up a bit, I've been reading and hearing good things about Wago connectors. Unlike IDC you do have to cut and strip the wires. Maybe overkill for the job? Maybe they have enough advantages to make them worthwhile. I'm not sure but it's another option.

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Harlequin

[didcot]

Just a thought, but if you are using Peco track products then they provide a very useful service in that if you give them a diagram of your layout along with part numbers for points etc, they will reply with a wiring diagram suitable for either DC or DCC which ever your preference is.

They were very helpful to me providing schemes for a small oo9 layout I have just started. You can find information on the Peco website. I can't praise them enough for the speed and level of information they gave me.