DCC starting out - I'm not a techy but so far its been worth it!

[Izzy]

10 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

Really? I, and my friends, must have been very lucky in not experiencing any failures out of the packet - or perhaps you have all the bad luck and are ensuring that we only get the good ones without failures.

Yes, really. At times I must admit it has felt like that. You don’t readily believe that the decoder is at fault but anything else, mainly of course yourself. Things like the early Hornby class 31 TTS that will only work with the loco one way around on the track (I have 3 of these) because of the differing way DCC systems can broadcast the signal is but one example. So completely dead one way, works perfectly the other. A real puzzle until the errant firmware was found as the issue. 
 

I would say you and your friends have been most fortunate. Others, like me, are not so lucky......

 

Izzy

[halsey]

2 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

I wouldn't use a car 12v socket.  Don't know what its max current is on your car through the 12v socket, but it could be 10A or more.  So, I'd be cautious about that as a test circuit.

 

A 9v PP3 battery is a cheap - under £5 for brandname examples at a supermarket, far less at some other sources -  and the two terminals are about the right place to just push directly onto the wheels of a OO loco to show its working.  Max current from a PP3 is more reasonable.

 

 

 

The PP3 battery confirmed the loco is still OK on DC so having contacted the chip supplier and retailer this morning and completed a CV8-8 reset I'm going to send all back to the retailer resolve.

I'll keep you posted...…………………. 

[Harlequin]

4 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

The PP3 battery confirmed the loco is still OK on DC so having contacted the chip supplier and retailer this morning and completed a CV8-8 reset I'm going to send all back to the retailer resolve.

I'll keep you posted...…………………. 

Did you check the decoder was aligned correctly?

 

[halsey]

2 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Did you check the decoder was aligned correctly?

 

 

Yes - and I removed it and replaced it just in case of "dirty" pins - as it was a 21 it could only go on one way round

 

Zimo admitted they do have returns but that they are usually solved with a CV8 - 8  reset.

 

I'll move on to my speed whiskers 2 car DMU next (and the last one for now) 

[WIMorrison]

3 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

I wouldn't use a car 12v socket.  Don't know what its max current is on your car through the 12v socket, but it could be 10A or more.  So, I'd be cautious about that as a test circuit.

 

A 9v PP3 battery is a cheap - under £5 for brandname examples at a supermarket, far less at some other sources -  and the two terminals are about the right place to just push directly onto the wheels of a OO loco to show its working.  Max current from a PP3 is more reasonable.

 

 

Most, if not all, adapters the you fit into the ‘cigarette lighter socket’ have a fuse in them, I have seen them as low as 0.5 amps and as high as 2 amps

[halsey]

1 hour ago, halsey said:

 

Yes - and I removed it and replaced it just in case of "dirty" pins - as it was a 21 it could only go on one way round

 

Zimo admitted they do have returns but that they are usually solved with a CV8 - 8  reset.

 

I'll move on to my speed whiskers 2 car DMU next (and the last one for now) 

 

OK decoder fitted and all basic functions work BUT internal lights in power car don't work (trailer car is fine - set up using CV29) and direction lights don't work on either unit?

 

Any experience out there - Bachmann 32-515 Derby Lightweight??

 

This may be a bit too much for me to get my head around at the moment but the info would be good ……………….

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by halsey
more info given

[newbryford]

There's always the possibility that the fault is with the unit and not the decoder.

 

Swap the decoder to a known "good" loco, or use a known good decoder in the unit.

 

 

[WIMorrison]

I spend months (or it seemed like that) trying to work out a fault on a loco and it transpired to be the wire from the power pickups on the bogies to the circuit board that fed the decoder and hence the motor. The wire has a connector inside a heatshrink that pushed onto the circuit board and that connection was intermittently faulty.

 

simplest of faults can cause a lot of angst and annoyance, in this case the loco was about to be thrown out when I finally diagnosed the real fault.

[Izzy]

If none of the lights work with a 8-pin then it might be that it’s fitted the wrong way around, (the motor functions will still work but the direction will be reversed to what it should be). If you look back through Derby Lightweight threads on forums it seems quite a few experienced lighting issues through faulty wiring or with the internal sprung connections not ‘ making’. This is a ‘feature’ of their N gauge versions as well which share the same design. Occasionally it can be a poor/broken solder joint of the decoder wires to the 8-pin plug, not helped by having to bend the group of wires to fit the plugs into their sockets with the Bachmann DMU’s due to the very limited room as a result of where they are situated.

 

Izzy

 

 

[halsey]

13 hours ago, newbryford said:

There's always the possibility that the fault is with the unit and not the decoder.

 

Swap the decoder to a known "good" loco, or use a known good decoder in the unit.

 

 

 

The unit is fine on DC - I don't have a selection of spare decoders but as I move on perhaps I should

[halsey]

8 hours ago, Izzy said:

If none of the lights work with a 8-pin then it might be that it’s fitted the wrong way around, (the motor functions will still work but the direction will be reversed to what it should be). If you look back through Derby Lightweight threads on forums it seems quite a few experienced lighting issues through faulty wiring or with the internal sprung connections not ‘ making’. This is a ‘feature’ of their N gauge versions as well which share the same design. Occasionally it can be a poor/broken solder joint of the decoder wires to the 8-pin plug, not helped by having to bend the group of wires to fit the plugs into their sockets with the Bachmann DMU’s due to the very limited room as a result of where they are situated.

 

Izzy

 

 

 

It is definitely the right way round as per various google'd sources all saying the same but I will double check - it could have internal connector issues - the body was a "sod" to get off (and back on) but I'll remove and review

 

WHY doesn't the search facility work within the forum as well as it does in google which comes up with refs back to RMW that couldn't be found directly?? Or is this an old chestnut??

 

On the subject of body removal I've seen guys on youtube use a small "plastic" spatula type tool any info/advice on these as I really don't like using screwdrivers??

Edited December 25, 2019 by halsey

[WIMorrison]

Look for the tools to take mobile phones apart

[boxbrownie]

Or use old credit/membership/club cards etc.

[dhjgreen]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Or use old credit/membership/club cards etc.

Or cocktail sticks.

[boxbrownie]

23 minutes ago, dhjgreen said:

Or cocktail sticks.

Surely the Olives leave a sticky residue on the model? 

[Matt C]

Plastic picnic knives from Poundland.  Also picked up the cheapest 21 pin dcc ready loco from hattons (damaged body)  which lives with its top off and is used purely to test and pre program  decoders before they go near a new loco. I have a 21 pin to 8 pin plug in adaptor so I can test them as well. My new year project is to butcher an old lima  chassis with lights to add a block of lever connectors so I can clip in  loose wire decoders for testing before fitting. Yeah I could buy a decoder tester but wheres the fun in that ? 

[friscopete]

Maybe an  MRC Loco Genie might help .It runs on 12V DC or DCC  .Its RC and sound .The sound is American but  you can turn it off  though the sound was surprisingly good . .Probably purists will be sniffy but it works .my Mine is in a gP9 and it works independently of  any other control going through the track but will also just run and control on DC or DCC ..so its RC ,DCC ,DC  all with sound .Maybe pricey per loco  at about 60 sheets a throw .From Gaugmaster .Happy Christmas while you sort that lot out

Oh well back to cooking the chicken .My turn this year .

Edited December 25, 2019 by friscopete

[dhjgreen]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

Surely the Olives leave a sticky residue on the model? 

Not the cocktail sticks with umbrellas , the wooden pointy ones, the point gets into the small gaps.

[RobjUK]

On 25/12/2019 at 07:51, halsey said:

On the subject of body removal I've seen guys on youtube use a small "plastic" spatula type tool any info/advice on these as I really don't like using screwdrivers??

 

Guitar plectrums  (aka "picks").

 

You can get them in packs on ebay very cheaply & they are one of the main tools in phone disassembly kits.

Look for medium or heavy gauge ones.

eg. https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?LH_PrefLoc=1&_from=R40&_nkw=plectrums+12+medium&_sacat=0&_sop=15

 

Or look for triangular bass guitar ones if you prefer a larger, stronger type:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-x-1-5mm-large-triangle-bass-guitar-string-picks-plectrum/392162663962?epid=2005684893&hash=item5b4eb75e1a:g:c24AAOSwB8Rb2Ees

 

 

 

[Andymsa]

29 minutes ago, RobjUK said:

 

Guitar plectrums  (aka "picks").

 

You can get them in packs on ebay very cheaply & they are one of the main tools in phone disassembly kits.

Look for medium or heavy gauge ones.

eg. https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?LH_PrefLoc=1&_from=R40&_nkw=plectrums+12+medium&_sacat=0&_sop=15

 

Or look for triangular bass guitar ones if you prefer a larger, stronger type:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-x-1-5mm-large-triangle-bass-guitar-string-picks-plectrum/392162663962?epid=2005684893&hash=item5b4eb75e1a:g:c24AAOSwB8Rb2Ees

 

 

 

 

 

Got it some on order 

[Guest Jack Benson]

Earlier this year, we reached an impasse. 

 

Our DCC layout worked perfectly despite being 'wired' for two-rail DC and all our locos were chipped with a mix of Bachmann (ESU lokpilot v1) and Zimo units.

 

We had suffered a number of unrekated mazak Hornby failures , two T9s, a 700 and a WC had to be replaced. Instead we changed horses and sold all the remaining Hornby locos and replaced with Bachmann SDJR types. But then the question of re-chipping the new locos arose and we spent a couple of months running with DC (Gaugemaster W) and the original cab control system was pressed into use.  The lack of sound was not an issue as we never used DCC sound-fitted stock (smallish shed) but motor control was just as good with DC and double heading was a doddle.

 

Consequently, we decided that a steam era, single track cross country line was not an essential candidate for digital control.  

 

The fact that we never removed the cab control, installed multiple feeds or changed the wiring on Peco electrofrogs when we were using DCC was not a coincidence, it simply meant abandoning DCC and returning to DC that much easier. We simply find cab control (two dpdt switches) plus a Gaugemaster W rather easy to manage.

 

Cheers

 

JB

 

[Pete the Elaner]

12 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

The fact that we never removed the cab control, installed multiple feeds or changed the wiring on Peco electrofrogs when we were using DCC was not a coincidence, it simply meant abandoning DCC and returning to DC that much easier. We simply find cab control (two dpdt switches) plus a Gaugemaster W rather easy to manage.

 

 

 

My method of wiring for DC or DCC is similar until I get to the sections or buses.

Wiring for Electrofrog points has nothing whatsoever to do with DC/DCC & everything to do with reliability.

IRJs are always fitted at the frog end of all points then new feeds used for sidings.

I have even added sections for DCC. It allows block detection to be added at a later date. Much easier to have & not use than need but can't fit.

This is not a compromise for either method of power supply. I prefer to switch sections on & off from a panel than rely on point blades & rail joiners which can be less reliable.

 

Once the droppers are all there, it is time to work under the boards. Only now does the wiring change (sections for DC, busses for DCC) & if at a later stage you wanted to switch between one & the other, you don't have to disturb anything above the board.

[halsey]

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Once the droppers are all there, it is time to work under the boards. Only now does the wiring change (sections for DC, busses for DCC) & if at a later stage you wanted to switch between one & the other, you don't have to disturb anything above the board.

 

You will recall from the outset (and in my other thread) my issue was a physical/age related one re working "under" the boards as I simply can't do it.

 

I came up with the idea (not unique I'm sure) to allow the wiring to "drop" under the boards but to be of sufficient length "typically" 1m each time to come into the centre of the layout and terminate in (50 mm x 50 mm) conduit fitted to the inside face of the baseboard framing which houses the bus wires and the subsequently soldered connections which can be made sitting on a stool without grovelling.

 

This has worked very well for me and the XPS foam I used to hide the wiring on the surface has been a great idea anyway as it helped with the TT fitting and has silenced the stock running noises/echos so a win win

 

The shots below show work in progress and the top section of the 50x50 conduit closed up with the wiring to the Green and Blue switched sections inside and the bottom conduit still to wire to take the Red and Blue sections and the points wiring in due course

 

The loose hanging red and black wires (and the horizontal switch) are TT related and the wires disappearing at the top out of shot are the Red section bus wire coils sitting waiting to be fitted 

 

 

The wires disappearing towards top right are the coils for the Black section bus which will run in the conduit in due course

Edited December 28, 2019 by halsey
more info given

[halsey]

14 hours ago, RobjUK said:

 

Guitar plectrums  (aka "picks").

 

You can get them in packs on ebay very cheaply & they are one of the main tools in phone disassembly kits.

Look for medium or heavy gauge ones.

eg. https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?LH_PrefLoc=1&_from=R40&_nkw=plectrums+12+medium&_sacat=0&_sop=15

 

Or look for triangular bass guitar ones if you prefer a larger, stronger type:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-x-1-5mm-large-triangle-bass-guitar-string-picks-plectrum/392162663962?epid=2005684893&hash=item5b4eb75e1a:g:c24AAOSwB8Rb2Ees

 

 

 

 

I've got glue spatulas on order but will retain this idea...……………………...

[Pete the Elaner]

14 hours ago, halsey said:

 

You will recall from the outset (and in my other thread) my issue was a physical/age related one re working "under" the boards as I simply can't do it.

 

I had not remembered that but I think you mis-interpreted my point.

'under the board' was really a loose term because most have wiring underneath the board.

I had to physically work from underneath on a friend's layout. A moderate period of doing so was very painful. Even though my current home layout is intended to stay there, I have wired it in separate boards so they can be individually lifted if I ever need to work on them. It creates more work but I am happy to have done so whenever I want to lift a board for any reason.

 

The point I was trying to make is that points, sections & droppers can be placed on a layout & if done properly you WILL have a well wired layout, irrespective of DC or DCC.

It is only once you start installing the bus or sections that a decision between DC or DCC becomes relevant.