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DCC starting out - I'm not a techy but so far its been worth it!


halsey
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27 minutes ago, halsey said:

This topic is supposed to be helping people make DCC decisions - and it isn't - I'm seriously bored...……………………………..


I think it was solved way before page 10 but conversations continue.

 

Said before in this topic, but I use good old fashioned toggle switches for my points.
Having to press a button on the controller, type in the correct accessory number, then operate it, then press the loco button again all seemed too much effort.

 

Charlie on Chadwick Model Railway has a lot of automation set up with his points that sets whole routes for trains.  My layout isn't big enough for that.

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25 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:


I think it was solved way before page 10 but conversations continue.

 

Said before in this topic, but I use good old fashioned toggle switches for my points.
Having to press a button on the controller, type in the correct accessory number, then operate it, then press the loco button again all seemed too much effort.

 

Charlie on Chadwick Model Railway has a lot of automation set up with his points that sets whole routes for trains.  My layout isn't big enough for that.

On my controller I have two independent Loco controllers and have the mimic point diagram open at the same time, need only touch the point on the layout diagram to change point direction........I can even press the point button while slowing down a Loco with the other hand.....what is this ancient system of DCC you speak of? :lol:

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9 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

....Said before in this topic, but I use good old fashioned toggle switches for my points.
Having to press a button on the controller, type in the correct accessory number, then operate it, then press the loco button again all seemed too much effort......

 

But you don't have to be restricted to pushing a button on your handset, or even typing in any addresses.

As repeated over and over, there are other much easier ways to change points via DCC, .......including using "old fashioned toggle switches", wired up to work on DCC.

 

.

Edited by Ron Ron Ron
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16 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

But you don't have to be restricted to pushing a button on your handset, or even typing in any addresses.

As repeated over and over, there are other much easier ways to change points via DCC, .......including using "old fashioned toggle switches", wired up to work on DCC.


Not too sure what your reply was about :wacko: I simply stated what I used against what I could have to do, if I didn't want to go all out and have computer controlled or a mimic panel or whatever other gizmos just to change points.
Using switches means I don't need to bother using accessory decoders.

 

21 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

On my controller I have two independent Loco controllers and have the mimic point diagram open at the same time, need only touch the point on the layout diagram to change point direction........I can even press the point button while slowing down a Loco with the other hand.....what is this ancient system of DCC you speak of? :lol:


A Prodigy Advance 2 :P 

I don't have a mimic panel or screen or this or that for my layout.  Just a bit of wood with some switches sticking out of it :yes:

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56 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

Not too sure what your reply was about :wacko: I simply stated what I used against what I could have to do, if I didn't want to go all out and have computer controlled or a mimic panel or whatever other gizmos just to change points.
Using switches means I don't need to bother using accessory decoders.

 

It was your apparent implication that the only alternative to your toggle switches, was limited to addresses needing to be typed in to your handset.

If that's a personal limitation, because you have made no other provision to do this via DCC, then that's fine; but in not being specific, it appears to me that it's perpetuating the myth that DCC operation of points can only be done by the long winded method of individually typing addresses into a handset, or console.

 

Using a simple analogue arrangement of toggle switches is a perfectly valid option, particularly where the quantity of points is small and there's no requirement, or future requirement to integrate point and route operation into something like computer layout control.  It's cheaper too.

For more complicated or larger new layouts, there's a lot of merit in looking at the various DCC options.

 

.

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7 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Using a simple analogue arrangement of toggle switches is a perfectly valid option, particularly where the quantity of points is small and there's no requirement, or future requirement to integrate point and route operation into something like computer layout control.  It's cheaper too.

For more complicated or larger new layouts, there's a lot of merit in looking at the various DCC options.

 

.

 

As I have done - having 19 points in total - 11 on the mainlines are motorised with Peco surface mounted (remembering my base requirement that all wiring and building had to be above the boards) with a good old fashioned switch board with layout drawn on it, then 8 in the goods areas manually controlled with caboose levers which I love.

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2 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:


Aha.....that ancient......:lol:

 

Why is it so topical to knock the PA2 - I admit to no knowledge of the alternatives BUT this is a great starter outfit well priced great backup and I don't ever see the need to change it with my size of layout and stable 

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1 hour ago, Sir TophamHatt said:


Not too sure what your reply was about :wacko: I simply stated what I used against what I could have to do, if I didn't want to go all out and have computer controlled or a mimic panel or whatever other gizmos just to change points.
Using switches means I don't need to bother using accessory decoders.
 

Your earlier post inferred that switching points with DCC involved pressing buttons on a throttle. It doesn't have to.

 

Switching them with DCC simply means the command station throws them. Since you already have a throttle connected, this is 1 way to throw them, but not necessarily the easiest. I will document this for use as a backup method for the club layout I am working on.

You could configure a panel to do it. There are products out there now which makes this fairly straightforward.

You could also hook up a PC/PI/Mac & control them.

 

Something not possible with a traditional panel: Because it just sends signals to the command station, you could have 2 identical panels. This may sound pointless but it could be useful on a useful on a larger layout where 1 position is better for shunting in the yard & another is better for running trains in/out of the station.

It could also be useful for and end-to-end layout with a fiddle yard at each end. It may save you having to walk 12' & back again just to throw a point. This may sound trivial but if you're operating on your own at lunchtime & have set a train off then notice a point is set wrong, you may have to break off a conversation with a viewer in order to correct it. Or maybe your fellow operator is in a discussion with a viewer & you don't really want to disturb them just to throw a point.

(Chatting with viewers are, for me, one of the best parts of exhibiting).

A duplicate control panel would allow you to throw the point from where you are.

 

It is a bit like designing sections on a DC layout then you find you would like to incorporate a move you never originally considered, but you can't because the sections don't allow it.

Switching points with DCC allows you to change your mind after gaining operating experience with the layout.

 

My home layout had a DC panel with diode matrices. It should have worked but didn't (I think there were too many point motors on each matrix). so I wish I had used DCC.

Happily, I had designed the layout with spare connections, so will now use them for a DCC accessory bus & re-work the part-finished panels for DCC.

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Just now, halsey said:

 

Why is it so topical to knock the PA2 - I admit to no knowledge of the alternatives BUT this is a great starter outfit well priced great backup and I don't ever see the need to change it with my size of layout and stable 

I have no idea.

I have never used one but I know others who have & like them. It is all about what functionality you want & how the control system feels.

I have been told that a Prodigy is the wrong system if you want block detection, but I would not argue this makes it bad.

 

1 member at my club had a Prodigy & switched to an NCE PowerCab because several others at the club had these & liked them. He preferred the Prodigy so kept it & the club bought his PowerCab.

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3 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

Why is it so topical to knock the PA2 - I admit to no knowledge of the alternatives BUT this is a great starter outfit well priced great backup and I don't ever see the need to change it with my size of layout and stable 

I have no idea if it is topical or not, actually never seen any posts knocking it really......I am sure it is a good system which works really well, I personally do not like hand held controllers (although hand held extensions for occasional use with base station type work well) ......my post was purely a bit of fun, completely tongue in cheek hopefully shown by the emojis.

 

Everybody should use the system they feel happy with......rock on.....

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On 02/01/2020 at 12:01, halsey said:

 

.....Why do people knock the Prodigy2 system so much I think its very good for a novice/inter user.......

 

19 minutes ago, halsey said:

Why is it so topical to knock the PA2 - I admit to no knowledge of the alternatives BUT this is a great starter outfit well priced great backup and I don't ever see the need to change it with my size of layout and stable 

 

I'm not sure that people have "knocked" the Prodigy system.

There have been some references to this systems particular foibles, but many other systems have their own.

 

I guess when someone expresses that their personal preferences don't suit the Prodigy handsets ergonomics, or that its suitability for integrating block detection and computer control is a bit limited, that it can come across, or be expressed in negative terms.

Other than that, I haven't seen this product being "knocked".

 

Like the other American brand DCC systems, it's a bit dated, but it's still a very competent DCC system.....plus it offers a UK/European approved wireless handset option and a cheap add-on to allow use of smartphones as throttles.

 

 

.

Edited by Ron Ron Ron
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Just because someone uses DCC for train control, it doesn't mean that it *must* be used for points/accessory control.

 

Points control can be a conventional analog system with CDUs for solenoids or DC power for slow action motors - or even the simplest from of digital -by using a finger.

 

Using DCC for points was often a laborious process as multiple button presses were required to operate them, but as Ron says a few posts above, things have moved on and "normal" switches and pushbuttons can easily be incorporated into DCC systems.

 

There are self-conatined digital point/accessory control systems that mean you can then power your trains with whatever you like - even clockwork if you really wanted to.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, newbryford said:

Just because someone uses DCC for train control, it doesn't mean that it *must* be used for points/accessory control.

 

Points control can be a conventional analog system with CDUs for solenoids or DC power for slow action motors - or even the simplest from of digital -by using a finger.

 

Using DCC for points was often a laborious process as multiple button presses were required to operate them, but as Ron says a few posts above, things have moved on and "normal" switches and pushbuttons can easily be incorporated into DCC systems.

 

There are self-conatined digital point/accessory control systems that mean you can then power your trains with whatever you like - even clockwork if you really wanted to.

 

 

 

 

 

I had a bash at driving Rowntree Sidings. Their points and signals were DCC controlled. There was a list of the various routes with a route number. On the controller you simply pressed the route button, followed by the route number and pling plonk pling pling plonk went the points with the right signals changing colour after wards. What a wonderful use of DCC.

Edited by Clive Mortimore
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6 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I had a bash at driving Rowntree Sidings. There points and signals were DCC controlled. There was a list of the various routes with a route number. On the controller you simply pressed the route button, followed by the route number and pling plonk pling pling plonk went the points with the right signals changing colour after wards. What a wonderful use of DCC.

 

Glad to have you back, Clive.

 

I like route-setting technology where it fits in with the era of the layout - as it does with Roundtrees Sidings which is one of my all-time favourite layouts.

 

But on a layout set in the 1930s, I prefer a system that replicates a signal box of that era. So lots of levers and interlocking. Probably because I find "driving" a signal box much more fun than driving a locomotive.

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2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

....But on a layout set in the 1930s, I prefer a system that replicates a signal box of that era.  So lots of levers and interlocking.  Probably because I find "driving" a signal box much more fun than driving a locomotive.

 

You can use signal box levers to operate points by DCC as well.

 

 

.

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7 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

 

I'm not sure that people have "knocked" the Prodigy system.

There have been some references to this systems particular foibles, but many other systems have their own.

 

I guess when someone expresses that their personal preferences don't suit the Prodigy handsets ergonomics, or that its suitability for integrating block detection and computer control is a bit limited, that it can come across, or be expressed in negative terms.

Other than that, I haven't seen this product being "knocked".

 

Like the other American brand DCC systems, it's a bit dated, but it's still a very competent DCC system.....plus it offers a UK/European approved wireless handset option and a cheap add-on to allow use of smartphones as throttles.

 

 

 


I am sorry to say that since I first got my PA2 system I have received almost nothing but negative remarks concerning it when I have foolishly said I had one in general conversation. This is in person let alone online. These have ranged from , “well, there are far better systems around for the money” to “ I wouldn’t touch that pile of rubbish”. As you say it is basic in nature with fewer options than others and some odd foibles, but so do most others as nothing is perfect. But somehow it seems to be the system many like to ‘bash’. I have no idea why, but it often makes you feel you need to apologise for having one. 
 

Izzy
 

 

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5 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

The PA2 is certainly the one that you hear owners proclaiming about the excellent repair service that they received from Gaugemaster.

 

Do the others never need repairing?

Hmmmmmmm ;)

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On ‎15‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 11:33, Pete the Elaner said:

Your earlier post inferred that switching points with DCC involved pressing buttons on a throttle. It doesn't have to.

 

But in my situation, it does.

My earlier post stated [pushing a series of buttons on a handset] is one way to do it, not the only way.  But perhaps the most obvious, without looking at larger other systems like PC control, mimic panels or using extra decoders.  Especially because the other posts around that time were talking about the numbers of key presses on certain systems to throw a set of points.


I simply gave my view as a PA2 user why I went for analogue switches rather than DCC.
Admittedly, I haven't looked at anything else because on my layout, what I have works fine, and is the simplest, lowest cost, just works.

 

And considering the title of the thread, something simple is worth exploring when a non-tech person is starting out with DCC.

Edited by Sir TophamHatt
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On 07/01/2020 at 15:42, halsey said:

 

Now packed up and heading for AGR who will resolve I'm sure...………..I will report back.

 

I said I would report back - there was something wrong on the PCB relating to one of the (21) pins - cost £25 plus my postage to them (£12 incl insurance) - now on its way back all tested so for me that's a good result - no more non retail DCC ready locos off eBay for me - this was a costly lesson relative to the loco cost but the only one I've ever suffered so I'm not overly concerned.

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I think I am correct in saying that the whole idea of pcb’s and decoders with plugs that just, er, plug-in, is to try and make the whole DCC thing easier/simpler for all users. But this all relies on the said pcb’s being well designed and properly constructed. Sometimes neither happen and then it all falls down.....

 

As an example a while ago I fitted sound into a Heljan W&M railbus. This has a 21pin socket pcb. The matching Zimo sound decoder is the MX644D. The warranty states that the speaker wires must be connected to the pcb or said warranty is invalidated. There are sockets on the pcb for various aspects, including speakers. These are lettered/numbered. But there is no schematic available to say what each is for, nor do Heljan provide available plugs for these sockets........

 

So you have to study the pcb, discover/work out which socket to use, and then hard wire (solder) the wires to the socket pins..........

 

I am sure others will have had similar experiences. If it wasn’t so laughable you’d almost feel it was deliberate......

 

Izzy

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12 minutes ago, Izzy said:

I think I am correct in saying that the whole idea of pcb’s and decoders with plugs that just, er, plug-in, is to try and make the whole DCC thing easier/simpler for all users. But this all relies on the said pcb’s being well designed and properly constructed. Sometimes neither happen and then it all falls down.....

 

As an example a while ago I fitted sound into a Heljan W&M railbus. This has a 21pin socket pcb. The matching Zimo sound decoder is the MX644D. The warranty states that the speaker wires must be connected to the pcb or said warranty is invalidated. There are sockets on the pcb for various aspects, including speakers. These are lettered/numbered. But there is no schematic available to say what each is for, nor do Heljan provide available plugs for these sockets........

 

So you have to study the pcb, discover/work out which socket to use, and then hard wire (solder) the wires to the socket pins..........

 

I am sure others will have had similar experiences. If it wasn’t so laughable you’d almost feel it was deliberate......

 

Izzy

 

Hi,

 

That's interesting as I'm thinking of buying a W&M railbus at this very moment but have been put off by

a) not knowing anything about Heljan and...…...

b) reading far too much about DCC fitting to this particular model being a nightmare

I'm not looking to fit sound so what would you say to the challenge I might face and what do you think of the model and its ability to be converted by an experienced novice??

Will a Zimo non-wired/direct 21 pin fit??

 

Cheers J

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1 hour ago, halsey said:

 

Hi,

 

That's interesting as I'm thinking of buying a W&M railbus at this very moment but have been put off by

a) not knowing anything about Heljan and...…...

b) reading far too much about DCC fitting to this particular model being a nightmare

I'm not looking to fit sound so what would you say to the challenge I might face and what do you think of the model and its ability to be converted by an experienced novice??

Will a Zimo non-wired/direct 21 pin fit??

 

Cheers J


Fitting the standard Zimo 21 pin will be no issue I feel.... just getting it apart in the first place........ It’s a weighty model that runs well, but access to fit a decoder is not that easy.
 

I have fiddled about with mine a bit to make the lights directional and only one side which are now red to be faux tail lights, ( ordinary oil lamps were used on them rather than the fitted ones as per DMUs in this time era), but I did this as I had to strip it right down to convert to P4. The wiring is a right old game....

 

However, all you need to do is get the main body off to be able to take the blank out and plug in the decoder... you’ve been down this route before! 
 

You remove the roof horns - they lever upwards - remove the screws underneath. Un-hook the door handrails, and the body should...maybe...come off, lifting upwards. There are clips you release by pulling gently outwards as you do this.... This then reveals the cast metal sub-structure the body is on, with the pcb in the middle of the roof section.

 

I haven’t yet put a post about all this on my RTR conversion thread, ( sorry can’t seem to post a link here via the iPad). I have long meant to but just never got around to it. Perhaps I should. I’ll see if I can find the shots I took at the time. They might help explain things a bit more.

 

Izzy

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