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DCC starting out - I'm not a techy but so far its been worth it!


halsey
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3 hours ago, Izzy said:

I think I am correct in saying that the whole idea of pcb’s and decoders with plugs that just, er, plug-in, is to try and make the whole DCC thing easier/simpler for all users. But this all relies on the said pcb’s being well designed and properly constructed. Sometimes neither happen and then it all falls down.....

 

As an example a while ago I fitted sound into a Heljan W&M railbus. This has a 21pin socket pcb. The matching Zimo sound decoder is the MX644D. The warranty states that the speaker wires must be connected to the pcb or said warranty is invalidated. There are sockets on the pcb for various aspects, including speakers. These are lettered/numbered. But there is no schematic available to say what each is for, nor do Heljan provide available plugs for these sockets........

 

Or like the early Hornby class 50s which had the lights wired wrong on the PCB. :unsure:

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50 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Or like the early Hornby class 50s which had the lights wired wrong on the PCB. :unsure:

 

And then blew up decoders......

Then folks complained to the decoder suppliers that the decoder had failed..........................

 

Or to fit a 21 pin decoder to the first batch of Dapol 73's you actually have to fit it upside down.

 

Or fit a decoder in some Heljan diesels - test and all is well. Put the body on and it presses the underside of the pcb onto the metal chassis with various - usually release of the magic smoke - effects.

 

Fit a 8 pin decoder in the normal - non-sound/DCC ready release, but a 21 pin in the sound fitted version and then make it impossible to swap bodies around because one has the cab lights wired negative common and the other has positive common. (Hornby 60 with ESU sound)

 

Or fit a decoder socket and leave virtually no space for a decoder unless it is a solitary make/model number - there are lots of examples of that.

 

I'm sure there are more examples of non-DCC-friendly models, but that's probably worth a topic on it's own rather than here.

 

The manufacturers are getting there with making it easier to fit DCC - but it's taking longer than it should.

 

All of which simply make the transition to DCC more difficult than it should be.

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Izzy said:


Fitting the standard Zimo 21 pin will be no issue I feel.... just getting it apart in the first place........ It’s a weighty model that runs well, but access to fit a decoder is not that easy.
 

I have fiddled about with mine a bit to make the lights directional and only one side which are now red to be faux tail lights, ( ordinary oil lamps were used on them rather than the fitted ones as per DMUs in this time era), but I did this as I had to strip it right down to convert to P4. The wiring is a right old game....

 

However, all you need to do is get the main body off to be able to take the blank out and plug in the decoder... you’ve been down this route before! 
 

You remove the roof horns - they lever upwards - remove the screws underneath. Un-hook the door handrails, and the body should...maybe...come off, lifting upwards. There are clips you release by pulling gently outwards as you do this.... This then reveals the cast metal sub-structure the body is on, with the pcb in the middle of the roof section.

 

I haven’t yet put a post about all this on my RTR conversion thread, ( sorry can’t seem to post a link here via the iPad). I have long meant to but just never got around to it. Perhaps I should. I’ll see if I can find the shots I took at the time. They might help explain things a bit more.

 

Izzy

 

I decided to bottle it I'm afraid due to the many comments about getting this model apart I bought one brand new retail and have had it sent to AGR who are rapidly becoming my DCC go to guys to fit the decoder and set it up.

 

I should get it in app 2 weeks all set up...….tried and tested!

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I'm a total DCC convert :)

 

The ultimate in control has to be forgetting you have left a shunter on speed setting 1 (of 24) and noticing 10 mins later (whilst running 3 other locos) that it isn't where you left it - I never even remotely achieved that level of slow speed running with DC.

 

I have spent quite a lot of time familiarising myself with what I bought and am very pleased with the decision - handheld is a must for me its just a shame that the P2 wireless upgrade/conversion is so expensive as not to be worth it.

 

W&M railbus eagerly awaited - "faulty" LMS diesel now perfect.

 

Just listed my DCC fitted and working Bachmann LMS Fairburn Tank on ebay - let me know direct if you are interested its as new I've just never really liked it :( .

 

All good.

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1 hour ago, halsey said:

 

 

The ultimate in control has to be forgetting you have left a shunter on speed setting 1 (of 24) and noticing 10 mins later (whilst running 3 other locos) that it isn't where you left it -

 

:lol:

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7 hours ago, halsey said:

I have spent quite a lot of time familiarising myself with what I bought and am very pleased with the decision - handheld is a must for me its just a shame that the P2 wireless upgrade/conversion is so expensive as not to be worth it.


If you don’t mind using phones as throttles then the newish wi-fi adapter is quite a bit cheaper and works with both android and Apple via the relevant throttle apps. Although expensive I have to say I do not regret getting the conversion. The handset adds a few features and runs on re- chargeable AAA’s, so a couple of sets and a separate charger means it’s easy to keep it powered. It has enabled me to have the command station on the floor and out of the way, (in a really useful A4 box along with the power brick), as it just plugs into whatever layout I use via a 5-din plug. The lack of a lead is great, just need to remember where you put the handset down.........

 

Izzy

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On 20/01/2020 at 22:11, Izzy said:


Fitting the standard Zimo 21 pin will be no issue I feel.... just getting it apart in the first place........ It’s a weighty model that runs well, but access to fit a decoder is not that easy.
 

I have fiddled about with mine a bit to make the lights directional and only one side which are now red to be faux tail lights, ( ordinary oil lamps were used on them rather than the fitted ones as per DMUs in this time era), but I did this as I had to strip it right down to convert to P4. The wiring is a right old game....

 

However, all you need to do is get the main body off to be able to take the blank out and plug in the decoder... you’ve been down this route before! 
 

You remove the roof horns - they lever upwards - remove the screws underneath. Un-hook the door handrails, and the body should...maybe...come off, lifting upwards. There are clips you release by pulling gently outwards as you do this.... This then reveals the cast metal sub-structure the body is on, with the pcb in the middle of the roof section.

 

I haven’t yet put a post about all this on my RTR conversion thread, ( sorry can’t seem to post a link here via the iPad). I have long meant to but just never got around to it. Perhaps I should. I’ll see if I can find the shots I took at the time. They might help explain things a bit more.

 

Izzy

 

Hi,

My Railbus has finally arrived but is very disappointing...………..

Bear in mind this was bought brand new from Kent Garden Railways and then sent direct to AGR for the DCC fitting

 

The model is great and lives up to expectations BUT its running is poor - my controller is a PA2 set 1-28 speed - (I have never bought brand new or Heljan) - in one direction it runs smoothly with lights on but after 18 nothing changes BUT in "reverse" it runs very badly almost stopping regardless of the speed setting and the lights turn on/off at will whilst it is circulating on the main line loops (and not always in the same spot).

 

Is this normal for running in?? There seems to be grease/oil in evidence  but I don't want to take it apart as its new - not to self - perhaps eBay isn't all that bad after all as I missed/avoided a DC one of these said to be a good runner for £30 less!

 

Advice please - especially regarding "normal/expected" running in issues

 

Cheers

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45 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

have you oiled this loco and run it in yet? New locos generally need oiling as they could have been sat on a shelf for years, and they always need a few hours (in each direction) o bed them in.

 

No I haven't added lubrication as it is already very evident  - it runs reasonably well in one direction but very badly in the other with something electrical going on (in the poor direction as the lights are on/off

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5 hours ago, halsey said:

 

Hi,

My Railbus has finally arrived but is very disappointing...………..

Bear in mind this was bought brand new from Kent Garden Railways and then sent direct to AGR for the DCC fitting

 

The model is great and lives up to expectations BUT its running is poor - my controller is a PA2 set 1-28 speed - (I have never bought brand new or Heljan) - in one direction it runs smoothly with lights on but after 18 nothing changes BUT in "reverse" it runs very badly almost stopping regardless of the speed setting and the lights turn on/off at will whilst it is circulating on the main line loops (and not always in the same spot).

 

Is this normal for running in?? There seems to be grease/oil in evidence  but I don't want to take it apart as its new - not to self - perhaps eBay isn't all that bad after all as I missed/avoided a DC one of these said to be a good runner for £30 less!

 

Advice please - especially regarding "normal/expected" running in issues

 

Cheers


I am sorry to read your railbus isn’t such a good runner at present. I presume it’s had Zimo 21pin fitted so can only think it’s the wiper pickups that are the problem. This would square with the lights going out while moving, intermittent current collection. This can often prove to be okay in one direction and not the other if they aren’t set right.

 

Whipping off the wheel/axle covers ( three screws each on the bottom of the chassis), dropping the wheels out and adjusting/bending the wiper pickups might be a quick and easy fix that cures it. Hope it does anyway.

 

It’s now quite a while since I got mine and P4’d it, but part of this involved changing the wiper pickups to phospher-bronze wires that bear down on the wheel treads, so giving the wheels a bit of springing because although there isn’t a lot of axle movement every little bit helps, and especially with a long wheelbase vehicle such as this. IIRC I did this because the wiper ones proved un-reliable, and especially after the increased distance between the wheels. 
 

Of course now it’s been sound fitted it also has a small stay-alive capacity which I hadn’t bothered with before. As it is only 4-wheel perhaps this might be worth adding. I am sure the standard Zimo 21pin has the solder pads for it.

 

Izzy
 

 

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2 hours ago, Izzy said:


I am sorry to read your railbus isn’t such a good runner at present. I presume it’s had Zimo 21pin fitted so can only think it’s the wiper pickups that are the problem. This would square with the lights going out while moving, intermittent current collection. This can often prove to be okay in one direction and not the other if they aren’t set right.

 

Whipping off the wheel/axle covers ( three screws each on the bottom of the chassis), dropping the wheels out and adjusting/bending the wiper pickups might be a quick and easy fix that cures it. Hope it does anyway.

 

It’s now quite a while since I got mine and P4’d it, but part of this involved changing the wiper pickups to phospher-bronze wires that bear down on the wheel treads, so giving the wheels a bit of springing because although there isn’t a lot of axle movement every little bit helps, and especially with a long wheelbase vehicle such as this. IIRC I did this because the wiper ones proved un-reliable, and especially after the increased distance between the wheels. 
 

Of course now it’s been sound fitted it also has a small stay-alive capacity which I hadn’t bothered with before. As it is only 4-wheel perhaps this might be worth adding. I am sure the standard Zimo 21pin has the solder pads for it.

 

Izzy
 

 

 

"P4'd it"???

 

I will have a look at the pickups tomorrow but am reluctant to do too much as its new and under warranty albeit that I have created some confusion here by independently fitting DCC.

 

Clearly another part of my (DCC) learning curve is "its good when its working but far tougher to address when it isn't"

 

I'll report back. 

 

 

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P4 - truer scale gauge trackwork at 18.83mm gauge instead of 'standard' 00 at 16.5mm gauge. There are other differences in that as the track is 'true' scale so the curves are of a larger radius too. I made comment on another thread that i have become so used to seeing 16.5mm gauge track, the P4 width just looks too wide. It's not attempting to take anything away from P4 - it's just as I see it. There is a very good P4 LSWR layout in this month's Railway Modeller 'Selmey'.

 

Keep at it, halsey - I'm learning off you.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

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10 hours ago, Sol said:

To me, it seems like the person who installed the decoder didn't test the loco properly afterwards.

 

I agree but for the fact that these guys have been really good to date with all my DCC issues incl sorting my duff eBay loco - but it doesn't make sense - a quick look at the pickups might resolve it otherwise I'm sending it back to them tomorrow (more postage) to sort it.

 

Not the end of the world...……………….

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17 hours ago, Izzy said:


I am sorry to read your railbus isn’t such a good runner at present. I presume it’s had Zimo 21pin fitted so can only think it’s the wiper pickups that are the problem. This would square with the lights going out while moving, intermittent current collection. This can often prove to be okay in one direction and not the other if they aren’t set right.

 

Whipping off the wheel/axle covers ( three screws each on the bottom of the chassis), dropping the wheels out and adjusting/bending the wiper pickups might be a quick and easy fix that cures it. Hope it does anyway.

 

It’s now quite a while since I got mine and P4’d it, but part of this involved changing the wiper pickups to phospher-bronze wires that bear down on the wheel treads, so giving the wheels a bit of springing because although there isn’t a lot of axle movement every little bit helps, and especially with a long wheelbase vehicle such as this. IIRC I did this because the wiper ones proved un-reliable, and especially after the increased distance between the wheels. 
 

Of course now it’s been sound fitted it also has a small stay-alive capacity which I hadn’t bothered with before. As it is only 4-wheel perhaps this might be worth adding. I am sure the standard Zimo 21pin has the solder pads for it.

 

Izzy
 

 

 

Worth a try and the pickups weren't right but still no change - packed up and going back tomorrow - watch this space - last and only Heljan and last "brand new retail" as I don't see the point - with this level of hassle I could have continued with my eBay philosophy which has only caught me out once in 10 locos and 5 years and even then only cost me £30 to resolve.

 

Its all a good learning curve …………………….. back to modelling ………….. 

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The Heljan Railbus is now back with DCC installer and it is acknowledged as being faulty - either the PCB or the motor?

 

The situation isn't resolved as yet but I'm confident it will be as both parties involved (the brand new retail supplier and the DCC installer) are reputable and established retailers and Heljan dealers. 

 

BUT

 

My question is how do you reliably buy a DCC loco other than buying a brand new and tested model from one source - is this the only way?

 

It seems as thought the world of DCC has opened up a whole new level of risk which average modellers (rather than electronic hobbyists) are unable to resolve - particularly the question "is the decoder or the PCB"? 

 

I enjoy the "chase" of sourcing good used stuff but with DCC locos this seems to be too much of a risk …………………..buying DCC ready is no use if you don't know the condition of the PCB

 

Back to modelling...…………………….

 

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59 minutes ago, halsey said:

My question is how do you reliably buy a DCC loco other than buying a brand new and tested model from one source - is this the only way?

 

I'm not too sure the problem is limited to DCC. I've bought a few items on ebay where the description was 'generous'. I've had to re-wheel several trucks for example. The problem with buying 'pre-owned' is that you can never be certain of the life the product has led or the expertise of the seller. I bought 'Annie and Clarabel' coaches with a 'Thomas' on ebay from a charity and the coaches are fine but the loco had stripped gears, which I've replaced. The charity offered a refund which I didn't accept as the coaches were good value by themselves, and I was dealing with a charity. I also find that some of the 'pre-owned' prices on ebay are not far off the new price and that some 'buy now' new items are priced way above the price from established retailers.

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I don't think it's the preserve of pre-owned stuff either, as the numerous threads I have read of problems with new purchases seem to show. And of course this W&M railbus was new.....  Just really luck of the draw. I know it shouldn't be, in an ideal world.

 

Izzy

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2 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

It isn’t DCC that is an issue, it is the chance that you take anytime you buy anything second hand whether it be model railways, electronic, computing - you pay the money and take a chance. 

 

My point is DCC if faulty is a harder issue to resolve for most people and generally more confusing and more expensive...…………….your other examples were not referenced by me...………..

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2 hours ago, Izzy said:

I don't think it's the preserve of pre-owned stuff either, as the numerous threads I have read of problems with new purchases seem to show. And of course this W&M railbus was new.....  Just really luck of the draw. I know it shouldn't be, in an ideal world.

 

Izzy

 

Sadly I think you are right - the price point of our hobby doesn't seem to imply/g'tee any form of worthwhile quality control but again not quite my point here which is that it seems as thought DCC ready doesn't mean its been tested (PCB etc) and actually IS DCC ready...………………..

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For the record, I’ve never had a single DCC ready loco, new or used, cause any problem after fitting a decoder to it. I have experienced a motor failure some time after fitting but I think that was unrelated.

That’s about 20-30 locos.

 

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Electric motors and gears are simple things, RTR models should work just fine.   Anything that labours, grinds, goes too slow or makes a horrible noise is not right and needs examining.

 

DCC decoders* are more complex, but electronics, once proven to work, usually work reliably.  They can suffer from infant mortality syndrome - but if they survive a couple of weeks use they should last years and years.

 

If you have a new model that does not perform as it should (DCC or DC) - send the damn thing back.  As a consumer, you have a right to expect a basic level of quality from a purchased product.

 

As for S/H purchases...  that's a bit of caveat emptor - but again, if you've committed and you can't return it, stripping a model to check its basic mechanicals and electrics is not difficult, and most things can be repaired somehow.  DCC chips can be removed to return locos to DC, then tested separately and replaced if required.  I actually don't have a DCC decoder 'tester' per se, but I'm thinking about making/buying one.

 

ESU make a decoder tester which I looked into in the past, but I have slept since then.

 

( * I call them 'chips' from my old Zero 1 days, apologies if that slips in.)

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10 hours ago, FoxUnpopuli said:

Electric motors and gears are simple things, RTR models should work just fine.   Anything that labours, grinds, goes too slow or makes a horrible noise is not right and needs examining.

 

DCC decoders* are more complex, but electronics, once proven to work, usually work reliably.  They can suffer from infant mortality syndrome - but if they survive a couple of weeks use they should last years and years.

 

If you have a new model that does not perform as it should (DCC or DC) - send the damn thing back.  As a consumer, you have a right to expect a basic level of quality from a purchased product.

 

As for S/H purchases...  that's a bit of caveat emptor - but again, if you've committed and you can't return it, stripping a model to check its basic mechanicals and electrics is not difficult, and most things can be repaired somehow.  DCC chips can be removed to return locos to DC, then tested separately and replaced if required.  I actually don't have a DCC decoder 'tester' per se, but I'm thinking about making/buying one.

 

ESU make a decoder tester which I looked into in the past, but I have slept since then.

 

( * I call them 'chips' from my old Zero 1 days, apologies if that slips in.)

 

Well I have taken the plunge once again and bought a s/h steam loco from "Rails" with DCC already fitted and tested (and a 60 day return) so hopefully this one will be OK -  Bachmann OO 31-128 3000 CLASS ROD BR BLACK E/E WEATHERED LOCO 3036 DCC - they were asking £90/offers and I got it for a cheeky first offer of £75!

 

I have bought from these guys before one VG one returned and their customer service is good.

 

I also had an accumulated eBay Nectar voucher which I didn't even know I had so the net cost was £19 - result (I hope) !

 

Cheers

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On 08/02/2020 at 16:00, halsey said:

The Heljan Railbus is now back with DCC installer and it is acknowledged as being faulty - either the PCB or the motor?

 

The situation isn't resolved as yet but I'm confident it will be as both parties involved (the brand new retail supplier and the DCC installer) are reputable and established retailers and Heljan dealers. 

 

BUT

 

My question is how do you reliably buy a DCC loco other than buying a brand new and tested model from one source - is this the only way?

 

It seems as thought the world of DCC has opened up a whole new level of risk which average modellers (rather than electronic hobbyists) are unable to resolve - particularly the question "is the decoder or the PCB"? 

 

I enjoy the "chase" of sourcing good used stuff but with DCC locos this seems to be too much of a risk …………………..buying DCC ready is no use if you don't know the condition of the PCB

 

Back to modelling...…………………….

 

 

Final report on the Heljan Railbus - the original retailer refunded my costs in full (incl my postage costs) the DCC installer was sadly less generous and only refunded the bare minimum which was poor bearing in mind he clearly didn't test the loco before sending it back to me as others have suggested should have happened - but taking all factors into account especially that I did this from an armchair with no petrol or parking costs I'll write it off to experience even though I'm £20'ish out of pocket.

 

Back to modelling...………………...

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