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DCC starting out - I'm not a techy but so far its been worth it!


halsey
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37 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

yep, a way that sellers often use to offload items (and problems) to someone else.

 

Not my experience to date nor when selling but it is what it is …………………...

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Just now, Nigelcliffe said:

 

There are plenty of wiring faults possible, and known to have occurred in RTR locos, inside which means it runs fine on DC with the blanking plate, yet on DCC there is a partial, or even complete, short circuit path which will destroy decoders.  

 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

 

Now packed up and heading for AGR who will resolve I'm sure...………..I will report back.

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I'm rather late to ths thread, been doing some modelling and not been on RMWeb for some time, but my concern is that if you're not a "techie" and don't like IT, and don't want to read up on DCC,  then you're not going to like having to set up (program) each loco's decoder with its own "address".

 

Now I bet that I've lost you already with those magic words "program", "decoder" and "address". If you're not happy getting an understanding by reading how to do these basic tasks in DCC then you're unlikely to take to DCC and will probably get very frustrated with it.

 

Some controllers, such as the ESU ECoS can make "programming" and "addressing" much easier, even to the extent of setting up the addresses and functions for you when used with decoders with Railcom Plus, such as ESU's LokSounds 4 and 5 and Lokpilot 4, but you still need a basic understanding of what is happening so that you can set up any other decoders that don't have the Railcom Plus autoprogramming/setup functionality.

 

I'm not trying to blind you with fancy words, but I believe that you do have to be prepared to "get your hands dirty" and get into the innards of DCC to get the very best out of it. If you're not prepared to do that, then my advice would be to stick with DC. 

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8 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

I'm rather late to ths thread, been doing some modelling and not been on RMWeb for some time, but my concern is that if you're not a "techie" and don't like IT, and don't want to read up on DCC,  then you're not going to like having to set up (program) each loco's decoder with its own "address".

 

Now I bet that I've lost you already with those magic words "program", "decoder" and "address". If you're not happy getting an understanding by reading how to do these basic tasks in DCC then you're unlikely to take to DCC and will probably get very frustrated with it.

 

Some controllers, such as the ESU ECoS can make "programming" and "addressing" much easier, even to the extent of setting up the addresses and functions for you when used with decoders with Railcom Plus, such as ESU's LokSounds 4 and 5 and Lokpilot 4, but you still need a basic understanding of what is happening so that you can set up any other decoders that don't have the Railcom Plus autoprogramming/setup functionality.

 

I'm not trying to blind you with fancy words, but I believe that you do have to be prepared to "get your hands dirty" and get into the innards of DCC to get the very best out of it. If you're not prepared to do that, then my advice would be to stick with DC. 

 

Life has moved on considerably - your comments would have applied to my initial post and related thoughts but not now (see later activity) - DCC is part of life fitting decoders, programming, troubleshooting, CV29 issues etc etc 

 

Cheers

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Talking to my favoured supplier re the issue with my last Loco their view is that it is likely to be the Locos PCB at fault and that they have a disproportionate number of issue with so called DCC ready locos - are these not actually tested on DCC at the point of manufacture before despatch???

 

I am not overly bothered if I only have one problem left to resolve as I don't seek/expect to extend my small stable beyond the 6 locos I have now but out of interest is there a better RTR (DCC) product out there than Bachmann - clearly when I returned to the hobby 5 years ago I tried Hornby but very quickly dismissed it ( I appreciate this brand has a loyal classic following but its not for me) ??

 

Cheers...………….

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My experiences are that apart from some commonalities no two RTR locos are quite the same, and design and production issues that can afflict one don’t another. I don’t find it possible to say that Hornby’s are rubbish and Bachmann’s great, or vice-versa, because I find similar issues with both at times, and other makes as well across the scales.
 

With particular regard to DCC ready I don’t think they will be tested at all. Probably - if at all - just a quick dose of DC to see that the wheels turn. The problem is, as is often said, that a poor/faulty pcb or wiring can work fine under DC, but not DCC. 
 

Izzy

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57 minutes ago, halsey said:

Talking to my favoured supplier re the issue with my last Loco their view is that it is likely to be the Locos PCB at fault and that they have a disproportionate number of issue with so called DCC ready locos - are these not actually tested on DCC at the point of manufacture before despatch???

 

I am not overly bothered if I only have one problem left to resolve as I don't seek/expect to extend my small stable beyond the 6 locos I have now but out of interest is there a better RTR (DCC) product out there than Bachmann - clearly when I returned to the hobby 5 years ago I tried Hornby but very quickly dismissed it ( I appreciate this brand has a loyal classic following but its not for me) ??

 

Cheers...………….

 

Testing ?    That's done by the customer.  It also part of the incredibly low price of locomotives.    

I agree with your supplier's initial assessment, faulty PCB is where to start looking. 

 

Hornby or Bachmann ?   About the same, both have some excellent models and both have some turkeys.   

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

Testing ?    That's done by the customer.  It also part of the incredibly low price of locomotives.    

I agree with your supplier's initial assessment, faulty PCB is where to start looking. 

 

Hornby or Bachmann ?   About the same, both have some excellent models and both have some turkeys.   

 

 

 

It is surprising that unlike in most other walks of life there isn't a truly excellent brand out there that one could choose to pay for (or not).

 

Agreed - for what you get locos are well priced - I certainly wont be buying any more (if at all) that aren't DCC fitted AND tried and tested with recourse if problems.

 

eBay doesn't now feel to me the right environment to play with DCC given the higher financial risks involved - unless there is a real trade g'tee eg Rails of Sheffield/Rails Vault as an example

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3 hours ago, halsey said:

 out of interest is there a better RTR (DCC) product out there than Bachmann - clearly when I returned to the hobby 5 years ago I tried Hornby but very quickly dismissed it ( I appreciate this brand has a loyal classic following but its not for me) ??

 

Some models are better than others irrespective of manufacturer, they are closer, but not exclusively, related to tooling age.

Hattons have been praised for the weight of their recent class 66. At 700g, it is only marginally heavier than my Hornby class 50s which run very smoothly, at a good scale top speed & have lots of space for a decoder & speaker. The oldest has the early PCB with lights wired incorrectly though. The Hornby 50 tooling is around 15 years old now.

Compare that to my Bachmann Ivatt 4MT. It has a decoder socket but only enough space to fit a blanking plug. Add some decoder electronics & the decoder has absolutely nowhere inside the boiler it can fit.

Conversely, the Hornby 87 has a recess for a decoder...but this is too small for a Hornby decoder! A LokSound micro fits, but Hornby have only provided space for a 2d speaker...there is no such thing; speakers need a mechanism.

Compare that with Bachmann's 90 which was released a year later. More lighting options, plenty of space for a decoder (which is also easy to fit) & an included speaker. One of mine was not sealed properly, giving it a very thin sound, but how much are they expected to test?

 

UK models were generally cheaper several years ago, but an increase in quality has helped prices soar, prompting Hornby to have 2 ranges. Some of their models appear in both their premium & budget (Railroad) ranges.

If QC was increased, how far would you go & how much would you expect customers to pay without sales dropping? There has to be a trade off between cost & quality. Manufacturers must believe they have hit this or else models would be at a different price point.

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Regarding the comments above I’ve just had an email from Hornby with their European ranges included and unless the quality and build is far lower (unlikely looking at the detail) than the Hornby UK equivalents, yet again we are getting the seemingly short end of the stick regarding prices........there are some very nice Euro models at surprisingly good list prices!

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24 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Perhaps it is just a larger market where they sell more items therefore recoup the tooling costs more easily and can therefore have a lower price?

Yes, I’d like to believe that :lol:

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  • halsey changed the title to DCC starting out - I'm not a techy but I'm learning to cope with IT!
On ‎08‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 08:05, halsey said:

I am not overly bothered if I only have one problem left to resolve as I don't seek/expect to extend my small stable beyond the 6 locos I have now but out of interest is there a better RTR (DCC) product out there than Bachmann - clearly when I returned to the hobby 5 years ago I tried Hornby but very quickly dismissed it ( I appreciate this brand has a loyal classic following but its not for me) ??

 

I gather Bachmann and Hornby are like AMD/Intel (computer processor makers) and ATi/NVidia (graphics card makers).

 

For a period of years, Intel would have produced the best.  But slowly, over the years, AMD would improve their offering and become the best.  A few years later, it would be Intel again.

This happened with graphics cards.  I bought one of the best value cards out there (an ATi), but that was 2 or 3 years ago.  Now it's all about NVidia cards.  Give it another year or two and it'll be back to ATi again.

 

Since the Hornby 08, they've been gathering speed as good producers again.  Before that seemed to be a very questionable time for Hornby.  But also more interestingly is it was during that time when smaller producers started and now there's a larger selection.  All in the midst when poor Bachmann had their problems with supplies.  You watch, give it a few years and Bachmann will be back - it's already started with their 158.

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On 09/01/2020 at 09:05, Sir TophamHatt said:

 

But look at the title of the thread... :rolleyes:

 

You are established in traditional technology that is dying.  Of course the cost is going to put you off converting all your locos.  You're also perhaps biased against it, because of that cost, which is where the whole DC vs DCC argument comes in.  People who are invested in DC generally don't accept the pros of DCC, while those who use DCC will always look down on DC users.

 

If you were starting out from new, you'd be silly NOT to use DCC.

 

 

Read what I was replying to, the daft comment by the person who posted before me.

 

I am biased about new comers being sold a dream which is a nightmare. How many topics have you started which basically say "It is not working again" quite a few. I couldn't find any modelling or layout topics. I look forward to seeing your layout at shows like Ally Pally.

 

 

Edited by Clive Mortimore
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8 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 

 

I am biased about new comers being sold a dream which is a nightmare

 

 

 

Not sure I agree with "nightmare" but you are right it isn't the dream scenario many would have us (me) believe.

 

There is a lot more too it (DCC) and many pitfalls to negotiate - whilst I'm completely happy with my choice the lack of ability to resolve problems without getting my cheque book out is something which irritates and others should be made aware of.

 

Wiring may be more straightforward BUT there certainly isn't less of it! 

 

Either way without entering your "disagreement" its up to all of us to "individually" get out of this hobby what we want/need from it...……...

 

Cheers

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20 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I am biased about new comers being sold a dream which is a nightmare. How many topics have you started which basically say "It is not working again" quite a few. I couldn't find any modelling or layout topics. I look forward to seeing your layout at shows like Ally Pally.

But it isn't a nightmare... :P - It's just as easy as DC - stick two wires to the track and you're off.

You could say "well DCC needs wire to every piece of track" - no it doesn't.  You can if you want, but not really required.  I could say that DC needs power districts, which seems mightily confusing to me, but I'm sure as a DC user it's a walk in the park for you.  It's different approaches to the same aim.  I just find DCC more flexible and has more options compared with DC.

For example, if you have a loop of track with some sidings, will DC allow one train to be circling the loop, while another goes from one siding, across the looped track and into another on the other side?  At the moment, I'd say no, but I am happy to be corrected.  DCC - no problem doing that.

 

Edited by Sir TophamHatt
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1 hour ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

But it isn't a nightmare... :P - It's just as easy as DC - stick two wires to the track and you're off.

 

What about fitting decoders to existing locos you might own? What about changing the default address from 3? What about the cost? I'm a fan of DCC but I have to help my neighbour who was sold DCC by the retailer when he started with a layout. Without my help he would struggle.

DCC has advantages, but it's more than 'stick two wires to the track'.

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2 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

Have some posts been deleted? That above comments don't make sense as the post referred to cannot be found - at least not by me :(

They won't when the poster deletes them after getting a reaction.

 

2 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

But it isn't a nightmare... :P - It's just as easy as DC - stick two wires to the track and you're off.

You could say "well DCC needs wire to every piece of track" - no it doesn't.  You can if you want, but not really required.  I could say that DC needs power districts, which seems mightily confusing to me, but I'm sure as a DC user it's a walk in the park for you.  It's different approaches to the same aim.  I just find DCC more flexible and has more options compared with DC.

For example, if you have a loop of track with some sidings, will DC allow one train to be circling the loop, while another goes from one siding, across the looped track and into another on the other side?  At the moment, I'd say no, but I am happy to be corrected.  DCC - no problem doing that.

 

A short video taken by my friend when he visited mainly of his DC stock running straight out the box on my layout.

 

I can and do what you are saying when a train leaves the station on the GNR lines and crosses the Up line to gain access to the Down line. Simple case of changing the points and one switch. If the train on the Up line is too close to the crossover like on the real railway I halt one train to allow the other safe passage other wise I have two running, and sometimes shunting another in the station area.

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In an attempt to get this back on track …………………..

 

My stable of Locos are all working fine and have been programmed for lights to work, to go in the right direction, to respond to dedicated numbers and are all programmed to speed option 28 BUT speed control seems a bit of a nightmare (esp when compared to DC) in the sense that the different locos respond differently they get up to speed differently and feel and control doesn't seem as intuitive as it was in my DC layout days - and yet this was championed as one of the advantages of converting.

 

Is there a subset of CV control settings that I should now be investigating across them all as it would be good if responses were similar as with DC.

 

I accept that top speeds will vary I accept that all locos are different but its the controllability that seems less good at the moment.

 

Thanks

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29 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Speed curves may be what you need. But simply adjusting CV2 may also enable you to get all your locos at least starting at the same - hopefully low - throttle setting. 

 

All good if I understood speed curves and adjusting CV2 - what parameters?

 

All my (Zimo) decoders were factory reset CV8 8 as part of the process I've gone through to date - am I wrong/naïve in thinking this would standardise these (all) settings??

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CV2 = the voltage applied to the motor when you set the first speed step. Range = 0 to 255, where 0 is no voltage and 255 is max voltage.

 

Before you change CV2 test whether the loco moves when you set speed step 1. If it does then it's probably best to leave CV2 alone. If a loco doesn't move on speed step 1 then gradually increase the value until it does.

 

CV3 = acceleration rate. Range = 0 to 255. 0 means instant response and larger values mean more gradual acceleration, as if the loco was bigger and heavier or less powerful.

 

CV4 = deceleration rate. Range = 0 to 255. 0 means instant response and larger values mean more gradual deceleration, as if the loco was bigger and heavier or has bad brakes.

 

Zimo decoders usually have a "light engine" or "shunt mode" function key that overrides the acceleration and deceleration values.

 

Edited by Harlequin
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