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DCC starting out - I'm not a techy but so far its been worth it!

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4 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

CV2 = the voltage applied to the motor when you set the first speed step. Range = 0 to 255, where 0 is no voltage and 255 is max voltage.

 

Before you change CV2 test whether the loco moves when you set speed step 1. If it does then it's probably best to leave CV2 alone. If a loco doesn't move on speed step 1 then gradually increase the value until it does.

 

CV3 = acceleration rate. Range = 0 to 255. 0 means instant response and larger values mean more gradual acceleration, as if the lococo was bigger and heavier or less powerful.

 

CV4 = deceleration rate. Range = 0 to 255. 0 means instant response and larger values mean more gradual deceleration, as if the lococo was bigger and heavier or has bad brakes.

 

Zimo decoders usually have a "light engine" or "shunt mode" function key that overrides the acceleration and deceleration values.

 

 

Thanks for that I think I get it - I am I think understandably concerned to play with the IT aspects too much esp with CV's until I know how to recover with confidence

 

Does a CV8 8 reset (re)set all decoders from the same manufacturer back to standard parameters across all CV s and their values or again is that too simple to expect?

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12 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

CV2 = the voltage applied to the motor when you set the first speed step. Range = 0 to 255, where 0 is no voltage and 255 is max voltage.

 

Before you change CV2 test whether the loco moves when you set speed step 1. If it does then it's probably best to leave CV2 alone. If a loco doesn't move on speed step 1 then gradually increase the value until it does.

 

CV3 = acceleration rate. Range = 0 to 255. 0 means instant response and larger values mean more gradual acceleration, as if the loco was bigger and heavier or less powerful.

 

CV4 = deceleration rate. Range = 0 to 255. 0 means instant response and larger values mean more gradual deceleration, as if the loco was bigger and heavier or has bad brakes.

 

Zimo decoders usually have a "light engine" or "shunt mode" function key that overrides the acceleration and deceleration values.

 

 

Just checked all locos move on 1

 

What/where is the light engine etc mode and if it overrides does that mean that the dial movement is the only "control" as with DC

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, halsey said:

 

Thanks for that I think I get it - I am I think understandably concerned to play with the IT aspects too much esp with CV's until I know how to recover with confidence

 

Does a CV8 8 reset (re)set all decoders from the same manufacturer back to standard parameters across all CV s and their values or again is that too simple to expect?

Setting CV8 works the same as all other CV settings and will (should!) only affect the chosen loco if that loco is on the main layout tracks. If you have a dedicated programming track and you are using that to set your CVs then in theory you could stand several locos on it and reset them all at once but that probably not a good idea.

 

21 hours ago, halsey said:

 

Just checked all locos move on 1

Great! If they run too fast or at different top speeds at speed step 28 then you could use CV5 to reduce the top speed:

 

CV5 = the voltage applied to the motor at the top speed step: Range = 0 to 255. Values of 0 and 1 mean just go as fast as possible. Values 2 to 255 are fractions of the max voltage so 128 is about half voltage, about 6-7 volts (rectified).

 

Quote

 

What/where is the light engine etc mode and if it overrides does that mean that the dial movement is the only "control" as with DC

Sadly, there isn't a standard function key for "shunt mode" as far as I can tell. It should be on the sheet of paper that came with the decoder or if not, ask the supplier.

 

Edit: Just to clarify: "Shunt mode" is not a CV it's something you can turn on and off while you are driving using one of the F keys on your controller. So you might turn it on while a loco is running around and backing up to a train, then turn it off when it has been coupled and you want that gradual pull away because of the weight of the train.

 

Edit: See Nigel's clarification below. Shame the options aren't simpler... !

Edited by Harlequin

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If you have Zimo decoders, then the following advice:

 

a - basic speed control.   You can adjust the way the decoder responds to speed settings by changing the "track reference voltage" CV.   This is often a better starting place for speed settings on Zimo (and the handful of other makers with similar settings).   Then move to the speed curve settings.   Its in CV57; generally setting it higher will result in a loco running slower over its entire range.

 

b - Zimo manual is on the maker's website, its in English.   You're looking for the "small decoder manual".    Yes its long.  But, for the basic speed curve things, you need only two or three pages.  Start on Page 17 and 18. 

 

c -   a reset will put the decoders back to their default.  Default means for non-sound decoders "as they left the factory".   For sound decoders it means "as they left the person who created the sound project", which may well be unique to that sound project.    But different locos behave differently due to the motors fitted, gearing, wheel diameter, general condition, design, and so on. 

 

d - "light engine" mode.  This could be cause of confusion...  
In some sound projects, the sound writer has used a feature to allow the loco to change its behaviour from a fully loaded train to a light engine.  This alters both the engine noises, and the acceleration and deceleration settings.  This will be set by the user with a function key, which is defined by the sound project  (ie. different sound writers do different things).  The end user can move this function key to another key if they wish, and change the way the loco behaves on either "light" or "heavy" mode. 

There are additional settings for all Zimo decoders (sound and non-sound) which are for "half speed" and "no/reduced momentum".   With these, a function key is assigned to each.  Half-speed is as it says, the loco runs at half the speed.   The no-momentum setting will give control without any acceleration/deceleration being set - so a change of speed on handset is instant.  Reduced momentum means the acceleration/deceleration is reduced to a much lower level (so the speed changes are fairly direct, but not as sudden).  It is possible to assign both to the same key (ie. function key is "half speed AND no momentum" ).    See page 25 of manual. 

 

 

- Nigel

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14 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Setting CV8 works the same as all other CV settings and will (should!) only affect the chosen loco if that loco is on the main layout tracks. If you have a dedicated programming track and you are using that to set your CVs then in theory you could stand several locos on it and reset them all at once but that probably not a good idea.

 

Great! If they run too fast or at different top speeds at speed step 28 then you could use CV5 to reduce the top speed:

 

CV5 = the voltage applied to the motor at the top speed step: Range = 0 to 255. Values of 0 and 1 mean just go as fast as possible. Values 2 to 255 are fractions of the max voltage so 128 is about half voltage, about 6-7 volts (rectified).

 

Sadly, there isn't a standard function key for "shunt mode" as far as I can tell. It should be on the sheet of paper that came with the decoder or if not, ask the supplier.

 

Edit: Just to clarify: "Shunt mode" is not a CV it's something you can turn on and off while you are driving using one of the F keys on your controller. So you might turn it on while a loco is running around and backing up to a train, then turn it off when it has been coupled and you want that gradual pull away because of the weight of the train.

 

Edit: See Nigel's clarification below. Shame it isn't simpler... !

 

There is a "yard" mode that I have been using on the Prodigy A2  which is good and would be better if I can achieve desired results on CVs 3and4 which is tomorrows task!

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Posted (edited)

Many decoders - including Zimo - by default support the use of F4 for direct control I.e switches off any acceleration and deceleration set in the decoder and F3 for shunting mode which reduces the top speed to enable finer control for shunting.

 

these functions are often remapped by people for lighting and sounds though

Edited by WIMorrison
Keys wrong way round
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The DCC Concepts manual for their Zen Black decoder (https://www.dccconcepts.com/manual/zen-black-decoder-manual-part-1-cvs-and-setup-only-v12/0) gives a table on page 8 for the CV settings they use for various types of train. It's quite a good illustration as to which CV settings can be used, and how.

However, decoders and locomotives will be different and in order to get similar characteristics across all your locos you will have to experiment.

I would set CV2 to zero

CVs 3 and 4 to zero, since DC control is instantaneous (but see 'Harlequin's note above on overrides).

I would set CV5 to 255 (max) and CV6 (mid speed) to half CV6 and then change them to see the effects.

 

Check the Zimo manual first for any recommendations it makes.

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Quote

There is a "yard" mode that I have been using on the Prodigy A2  which is good and would be better if I can achieve desired results on CVs 3and4 which is tomorrows task!

 

Could be wrong but I think yard mode on the PA2 just lets you change direction using the wheel instead of the direction button so probably has no real relation to CV changes. Handy for shunting operations I suppose.

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DC or DCC - both can be as simple - or as complicated - as you want them to be.

 

It just seems to me that there are a number of DCC users are utilising the extra features of DCC, which unfortunately makes it look even more complicated and just confuses the newcomer further and provides fodder for the non-believers/heretics.

 

In the case of Clive's layout - which looks exceedingly operable because he has thought about where and how to switch the sections - the wiring will look complicated to some DC users.

 

 

Sorry Clive! :P

I hope that doesn't stop me having a go with it sometime

 

 

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23 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

They won't when the poster deletes them after getting a reaction.

I didn't delete anything...

But hey - continue to make your own assumptions.

 

I won't be returning to this thread - you've clearly suggested as I don't post layout topics or whatever you expect, then I'm not welcome.  Thanks mate!

Edited by Sir TophamHatt

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On 09/01/2020 at 09:59, WIMorrison said:

Have some posts been deleted?

 

Yes, because I was becoming fed up with some of the inflammatory content.

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God here we go again the old chestnut DC vDCC. Regardless of our standpoints it seems some here want to force there views on us, there are many examples of this IOS vAndroid, Windows V Macintosh. We all have our positions so let us all respect them. DCC is not a nightmare it's just different and is really no harder than trying to achieve the same results in DC.

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Best not ask then if P4 is better DCC or DC :lol:

 

I have to admit being frightened myself by DCC - on the face of it is sounds simple two wires - clearly this was a marketing line!

 

Then I begin to worry about pins, chips, CVs, buses, wire thickness, burning out chips and I stick with DC.

 

I guess the answer is start with a plank or an inglenook and expand.

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4 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Best not ask then if P4 is better DCC or DC https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_laugh.png

 

I have to admit being frightened myself by DCC - on the face of it is sounds simple two wires - clearly this was a marketing line!

 

Then I begin to worry about pins, chips, CVs, buses, wire thickness, burning out chips and I stick with DC.

 

I guess the answer is start with a plank or an inglenook and expand.


as been said many times before, wiring for DCC is really no different to DC, the two wire statement goes back to a time of the zero 1( god showing my age there lol) possibly this statement was true to a point at that time but DCC has evolved into a different beast and consequently requires a different approach now. It’s a bit like the wrong kind of snow statement for real trains really a poor choice of words at that time likewise two wires to the track.

 

im completely self taught in DCC and was certainly a steep learning curve but it’s certainly no dark art, and a lot of issues I see here are mainly due to lack of knowledge or lack of skill, no insults tended that why we have these kind of forums to help those who need that help. Even I am still learning new things after having DCC for over 15 years.

 

bottem line I guess is start simple the rest will follow

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25 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Best not ask then if P4 is better DCC or DC https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_laugh.png

 

I have to admit being frightened myself by DCC - on the face of it is sounds simple two wires - clearly this was a marketing line!

 

Then I begin to worry about pins, chips, CVs, buses, wire thickness, burning out chips and I stick with DC.

 

I guess the answer is start with a plank or an inglenook and expand.

 

I don't regret the journey but cant/wont say I didn't question it on the way...……………………...

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I was speaking to a counsellor about this only last week - the phrase Today's worries are tomorrow's limitations rings true with me.

 

I have been struggling for some time with stuff like this, even in DC I reach a point where I become worried and then the standard response kicks in which is 'rip it up and start again' so I never get beyond the problem.

 

I am imagine it is the same with DCC, I have convinced myself it is too much, too difficult and now have limited myself.

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I hope you mean a councillor ;)

 

 

 

Edited by WIMorrison
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2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Yes, because I was becoming fed up with some of the inflammatory content.

Damn.....I missed the best bits again :lol:

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2 hours ago, Andymsa said:

God here we go again the old chestnut DC vDCC. Regardless of our standpoints it seems some here want to force there views on us, there are many examples of this IOS vAndroid, Windows V Macintosh. We all have our positions so let us all respect them. DCC is not a nightmare it's just different and is really no harder than trying to achieve the same results in DC.

You can’t beat Betamax though ;)

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4 hours ago, Andymsa said:

God here we go again the old chestnut DC vDCC. Regardless of our standpoints it seems some here want to force there views on us, there are many examples of this IOS vAndroid, Windows V Macintosh. We all have our positions so let us all respect them. DCC is not a nightmare it's just different and is really no harder than trying to achieve the same results in DC.

 

Andy

 

Bit like the Traincontroller v anything else debate ;)

 

Iain

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On 09/01/2020 at 13:59, Harlequin said:

CV2 = the voltage applied to the motor when you set the first speed step. Range = 0 to 255, where 0 is no voltage and 255 is max voltage.

 

Before you change CV2 test whether the loco moves when you set speed step 1. If it does then it's probably best to leave CV2 alone. If a loco doesn't move on speed step 1 then gradually increase the value until it does.

 

CV3 = acceleration rate. Range = 0 to 255. 0 means instant response and larger values mean more gradual acceleration, as if the loco was bigger and heavier or less powerful.

 

CV4 = deceleration rate. Range = 0 to 255. 0 means instant response and larger values mean more gradual deceleration, as if the loco was bigger and heavier or has bad brakes.

 

Zimo decoders usually have a "light engine" or "shunt mode" function key that overrides the acceleration and deceleration values.

 

 

I have now checked all locos and they are all on 1,2,1 for CVs 2,3and 4 respectively except one was set1,0,1 so I changed the 0 to 2 and now appreciated the difference that can be achieved!

 

Result - another aspect of DCC understood (tick)……..

 

Thanks Phil

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