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Aldersgate Station

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Guest LU Standard Stock

Hello again, yes more questions. ;) I've been looking up about Aldersgate Station and the Widened Lines during the Edwardian period. Not much useful found so far, but I was wondering did the MR goods trains going to Whitecross Goods Depot go through Aldersgate Station or did they have their own line to the depot? Also what MR locos were used for goods trains on the Widened Lines? Were they condensed like the passenger locos? Thanks!

Edited by LU Standard Stock

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The following notes on Farringdon relate mainly to 1900-14.

 

No goods services between 08.00-10.30 down (south?) or 16.00-18.30 up (north, presumably) and 16.30-18.30 down. This was a Metropolitan restriction.

 

Met trains to Vine Street depot were limited to 14 vans.

 

Midland through goods were 'Class 1 & 2' trains, limited to 16 mineral or 20 goods wagons southbound (usually loaded), and 20 empties any type (either direction, but usually northbound), all wagons double-coupled. Trains to Whitecross Street were limited to 20 vans.

 

GN goods presumably had similar restrictions

 

MR locos:

- Kirtley 0-4-4WT (later 1P)
- 690 class (Beyer-Peacock)
- 780 class (Dubs)
- Johnson 0-4-4T (later 1P)
- Kirtley (Beyer-Peacock) 0-6-0T    non-condenser
- Johnson (Vulcan) 0-6-0T
- Class 1 (later 1F) 2441 class
- Kirtley 0-6-0 goods non-condenser, later 2F rebuild by Deeley
- Johnson 0-6-0 goods non-condenser, later 3F

 

MR through goods, comprising:
-    general goods to Southern company yards (Hither Green and, probably less so, Feltham);
-    (especially) coal transfers to Southern company yards;
-    coal to MR depots at Brixton (closed 1947), Walworth Road (aka Amelia St; not closed until 1973) and Wandsworth Road (Stewarts Lane), all in South London; and Maidstone in Kent (no through loco working); all those on SE&CR; and Peckham Rye (over LB&SC), depot joint with L&NWR
-    also Midland-operated general merchandise to Walworth Road
-    specific traffic of coal (above), sheep (for export) to, and hops (back to Burton for brewing) from Maidstone; trains SE&CR-hauled from, probably, Hither Green

 

MR local goods: to Whitecross Street depot (Midland Railway's own, between Aldersgate Street (now Barbican) and Moorgate (St.) Stations); closed 1 March 1936.

 

GNR through traffic included:

-    coal, transfers from Ferme Park / Holloway to yards at Herne Hill or Hither Green (SE&CR), Battersea (LB&SC) or Feltham (L&SWR)
-    coal trips to GNR S London depots at Elephant & Castle (closed 1 July 1963) and Brockley Lane (closed 1958), both on SE&C;
-    general goods, again transfers to Southern company yards;
-    van & horse-box transfers Kings X to Victoria / Cannon St

 

GNR goods locos:
- Stirling 0-6-0ST (GN J14 - became LNER J52)
- Probably J13 as well

 

GWR goods: meat, poultry and vegetable produce traffic to GW Receiving Station at Smithfield Market.

 

GWR goods locos:
633 class 0-6-0T condensers, later 97xx condensers

 

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3 hours ago, LU Standard Stock said:

Hello again, yes more questions. ;) I've been looking up about Aldersgate Station and the Widened Lines during the Edwardian period. Not much useful found so far, but I was wondering did the MR goods trains going to Whitecross Goods Depot go through Aldersgate Station or did they have their own line to the depot? Also what MR locos were used for goods trains on the Widened Lines? Were they condensed like the passenger locos? Thanks!

The trains went through aldersgate station, then took a right turn into the depot. The loco's would have to be small tank loco's as they needed to cross wagon turntables inside the depot lower level.

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Guest LU Standard Stock

Thank you both so much for the info, it will help massively! :)

@Miss Prism That is incredibly in-depth info and will be very useful for working out what types of trains to model.

@simon b Thank you for the confirmation about the station. I was wondering if tank engines were the best way to go, so again thank you for confirming it.

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Tonight I'll dig out a link to a goldmine of info regarding white cross street, has some pics and history of the site.

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Guest LU Standard Stock

Wow that looks excellent, going to enjoy giving that a good read through. Thank you Simon!!

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That is fascinating, and fleshes out a lot of things discussed in another RMWeb thread where Whitecross Street was discussed. It doesn’t, however, include the very good interior views that can be found in the NRM on-line collection.

 

To add to the website author’s LNWR/LSWR question: both railways were interested in getting a city terminus. The very start of tunnels to the LNWR was made just below and in front of where the southwest corner of St Pancras eventually stood, and the LSWR got as far as a “fiddle yard hidden in a tunnel” next to Snow Hill for its services from the SW suburbs.

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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Guest LU Standard Stock

I think I might have seen one picture of the inside of Whitecross when I was looking up about Aldersgate and MR goods yesterday. The scope of my plan isn't big enough to include Whitecross itself sadly, but will hopefully have goods moving through Aldersgate station on their way to it. :)

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One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the current route of the Met/Circle/H&C (and erstwhile widened) lines between Barbican (erstwhile Aldersgate) and Moorgate isn't the one that the railway followed at the time that Whitecross Street Goods was open. All four tracks of the railway were rerouted in the mid-1960s to facilitate the Barbican development, virtually the whole area (including Moorgate station) having been razed by the Luftwaffe in late-1940.

Reference to detailed OS maps of various eras on the Old Maps or National Library of Scotland websites will help clarify the situation, although the fact that the railway was largely in tunnel confuses things slightly.

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Guest LU Standard Stock

@bécasse You are correct, and before looking into this I hadn't realised just how badly damaged that area was during the war! I've seen a few photos during my research showing the damage and subsequent massive rebuilding, quite an operation I'm sure. I managed to find an OS map from near the turn of the century during the time I'm modelling (the station carries the name "Aldersgate Street" so is pre-1910) and the area I will be modelling is nice and compact. :)

1175418793_AldersgateStationMapLayout.jpg.467018ded08af8f843204631c1c7954c.jpg

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The red box on your map is the Smithfield end of the station, the trains coming into the market would make a rather quick reversing move to enter the depot. Whitecross depot being the other end, trains could run directly in to that.

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Guest LU Standard Stock

My reasoning for modelling where the box is comes down to the fact that is an open section that I can fit in the limited space I have and also allows me to show the roof at one end (scenic break 1) and then use the road bridge as the other scenic break. I only intend to have the odd goods train make an appearance as I want to keep my stock list small and obviously passenger is the primary function. :)

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Guest LU Standard Stock

Right, yet again I need help! This is becoming far too regular, I do apologise. I have a photo in my Midland Album book which shows Aldersgate Street Station (mislabelled as Farringdon in the caption) and in the Met platform is a District Railway B Stock train. I thought District trains stayed on the District, so did they have running powers over the whole inner circle? I've just received some books on the Met/LU surface stock and while they are fantastic, have made me more confused about the situation as they make it seem like that train shouldn't be there! And as usual the internet has been as useful as a chocolate teapot! :lol:

DSC02136_(2).JPG.633b29efa4a895a8756ab1b5711f7503.JPG

Thanks!

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Wasn't the inner Circle operated jointly, with the District providing the trains on the Inner Road, and the Met on the Outer Road, until the advent of LPTB?

 

If I've remember that correctly, the train is perfectly placed.

Edited by Nearholmer
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Guest LU Standard Stock
5 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Wasn't the Circle operated jointly, with one railway providing the trains on the Inner Road, and the other on the Outer, until the advent of LPTB?

It might well have been, problem is my books don't make it clear at all. They seem to make a big deal about the Met and District not getting along, and the maps at the time seem to show half the inner circle in Met maroon and half in District green.

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The Inner Circle was operated as one route, and the arguments sort of mostly fell by the wayside over time, only to reignite when it was necessary to electrify it.

 

Some helpful early maps even show it as two colours all the way round, the route line being split down the middle, but a lot do, I agree, show it not as a complete route, but by ownership boundaries ........... goodness only knows how people who weren't "in the know" when they arrived in London go on, maybe they expected to change trains at the boundaries.

 

Have you made much use of the LT Museum on-line photo archive? That includes pictures that I think show District stock on the inner road at places like Farringdon.

Edited by Nearholmer
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Guest LU Standard Stock

Thank you very much sir! You are correct, the Met ran the clockwise train and the District ran the anti-clockwise. I'm really pleased about this as I can have both Met and District stock on the layout. :)

I have spent a little time looking through the LT photo archive but mainly for Standard Stock, I will definitely take some time to go through it properly for Met/District stuff as well.

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What I haven’t the foggiest about is how long post-1933 things continued with the ex-Met and ex-District Depots providing trains as I’ve described. Possibly until the C stock was built. It may be that the way the diagrams work even today contains a faint ghost of history - I’m not sure which depot or depots now populate the Circle - all from Hammersmith?

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The District and Met initially did offer joint running of the Circle in the early electric days but the Met took over the circle service using Saloon Stock which put great strain on the Met fleet. The District did however, did run some weekend trips extended from High Street Ken/Edgware Road to Aldgate and Liverpool Street. These occasional trips carried on unit 1972! 
 

The photo may be one of these weekend trips with B stock working beyond Edgware Road into the City. These extended trips where usually with ‘local stock’ often the oldest in use at the time on the Putney service. Pre WW2 it was B stock, then H stock (till 1950s) followed by Q stock and CO/CP up till 1972. 

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Guest LU Standard Stock

I think the photo is of the early days of electrification. The sign (much easier to see in the book) behind the MR loco says Aldersgate Street which ceased to be the station's name in 1910.

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Guest LU Standard Stock
On 21/10/2019 at 19:22, Miss Prism said:

The following notes on Farringdon relate mainly to 1900-14.

 

No goods services between 08.00-10.30 down (south?) or 16.00-18.30 up (north, presumably) and 16.30-18.30 down. This was a Metropolitan restriction.

 

Met trains to Vine Street depot were limited to 14 vans.

 

Midland through goods were 'Class 1 & 2' trains, limited to 16 mineral or 20 goods wagons southbound (usually loaded), and 20 empties any type (either direction, but usually northbound), all wagons double-coupled. Trains to Whitecross Street were limited to 20 vans.

 

GN goods presumably had similar restrictions

 

MR locos:

- Kirtley 0-4-4WT (later 1P)
- 690 class (Beyer-Peacock)
- 780 class (Dubs)
- Johnson 0-4-4T (later 1P)
- Kirtley (Beyer-Peacock) 0-6-0T    non-condenser
- Johnson (Vulcan) 0-6-0T
- Class 1 (later 1F) 2441 class
- Kirtley 0-6-0 goods non-condenser, later 2F rebuild by Deeley
- Johnson 0-6-0 goods non-condenser, later 3F

 

MR through goods, comprising:
-    general goods to Southern company yards (Hither Green and, probably less so, Feltham);
-    (especially) coal transfers to Southern company yards;
-    coal to MR depots at Brixton (closed 1947), Walworth Road (aka Amelia St; not closed until 1973) and Wandsworth Road (Stewarts Lane), all in South London; and Maidstone in Kent (no through loco working); all those on SE&CR; and Peckham Rye (over LB&SC), depot joint with L&NWR
-    also Midland-operated general merchandise to Walworth Road
-    specific traffic of coal (above), sheep (for export) to, and hops (back to Burton for brewing) from Maidstone; trains SE&CR-hauled from, probably, Hither Green

 

MR local goods: to Whitecross Street depot (Midland Railway's own, between Aldersgate Street (now Barbican) and Moorgate (St.) Stations); closed 1 March 1936.

 

GNR through traffic included:

-    coal, transfers from Ferme Park / Holloway to yards at Herne Hill or Hither Green (SE&CR), Battersea (LB&SC) or Feltham (L&SWR)
-    coal trips to GNR S London depots at Elephant & Castle (closed 1 July 1963) and Brockley Lane (closed 1958), both on SE&C;
-    general goods, again transfers to Southern company yards;
-    van & horse-box transfers Kings X to Victoria / Cannon St

 

GNR goods locos:
- Stirling 0-6-0ST (GN J14 - became LNER J52)
- Probably J13 as well

 

GWR goods: meat, poultry and vegetable produce traffic to GW Receiving Station at Smithfield Market.

 

GWR goods locos:
633 class 0-6-0T condensers, later 97xx condensers

 

 

Can I ask where you got all this brilliant info from? :)

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18 hours ago, LU Standard Stock said:

Can I ask where you got all this brilliant info from? :)

 

It is an extract from a set of notes compiled by the late Alasdair Gillies for his projected 4mm model of Farringdon. (I assisted him in a minor way with his notes.) Alasdair had a very comprehensive set of books and timetables relating to the period, and had spent quite a while working out the range of services at Farringdon in that era.

 

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