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2996 Victor

GWR Outside-Framed Wooden Bodied Vans

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Dear All

 

Looking at GWR Wagons by Atkins et al (revised 1998 edition), the Lot numbers of the undiagrammed vans with outside-framed wooden bodies reads as follows:

 

osLot157, 50 vehicles, completed 1878, wooden underframes
osLot199, 1 pattern vehicle, ? date, bulb iron underframe
osLot225, 100 vehicles, completed 1881, bulb iron underframes
osLot239, 200 vehicles, completed 1886, bulb iron underframes
osLot339, ? vehicles, 1885 (ordered?), bulb iron underframes
osLot358, ? vehicles, 1885 (ordered?), channel iron underframes

 

Apart from a couple of "typical" numbers, there are no blocks of running numbers quoted as there are with the later diagrammed vehicles. Can anyone advise if records still exist that give the running numbers allocated to the Lots? Perhaps at Kew? Or is it all just guesswork based on numbers known from photographs.

 

I'm particularly interested in the vans transferred to the Rhondda & Swansea Bay Railway (and it would also be useful to know when the transfer took place, if those records still exist!). Their GWR numbers prior to transfer were as follows (the numbers in brackets are those allocated following re-absorption in 1922):

 

Not known (101525)

2162 (Not known)

8105 (101345)

22591 (101297)

35215 (101521)

35385 (101522)

35537 (101346)

35600 (101344)

37036 (101514)

37058 (101526)

37197 (101520)

37438 (101506)

37578 (101509)

 

Any help with tracking down which Lots had which running numbers would be gratefully received!

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Mark
 

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It is quite possible that when he did the other South Wales companies the late Harold Morgan recorded the R&SB wagons taken over by the GWR. If he did that will have the previous numbers, though not the lots. If Harold did produce such a list Tony Miller, the WRRC Archivist, will know.

I assume that the transfer to the R&SB would have been shortly after the GWR started managing the company in 1908, but that is only an assumption.

The attached is a sample page from the TVR records Harold made so you can see the format.

Jonathan

HM-TVR GBV.pdf

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29 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

It is quite possible that when he did the other South Wales companies the late Harold Morgan recorded the R&SB wagons taken over by the GWR. If he did that will have the previous numbers, though not the lots. If Harold did produce such a list Tony Miller, the WRRC Archivist, will know.

I assume that the transfer to the R&SB would have been shortly after the GWR started managing the company in 1908, but that is only an assumption.

The attached is a sample page from the TVR records Harold made so you can see the format.

Jonathan

HM-TVR GBV.pdf 129.19 kB · 2 downloads

 

Hi Jonthan,

 

many thanks for your reply and the attached file.

 

I'm a member of the WRRC, too, and in regular contact with Tony, who has sent me the R&SBR Resource Sheet for these vans. Harold Morgan did indeed record some of the vans listed there, although as you rightly say there are no indications of Lot numbers. The remainder of the vans listed were recorded by, I think, Sandy Croall, who quotes a couple of Lot numbers. Really, I'm interested from the point of view of wanting to complete the information available if at all possible.

 

I suspect you are right about the date of transfer, although a note on the Resource Sheet from John Lewis says that ex-GWR 2162 (R&SBR 1607) was transferred in 1918. If the information does still exist, I would imagine it would be noted in the companies' Stock Lists.

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

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I've been on the lookout for numbers of these vehicles. Other numbers known to me are:

 

os Lot 339: 37517, 22332; os Lot 358: 27655 (from Atkins)

Photo at Acton c. 1910: 22583, 37023

Photo at Acton c. 1921: 37204

Photo at Chipping Sodbury: 37486

 

The numbers of the vehicles transferred to the R&SBR reinforce a couple of my hunches:

1. that the series 37xxx may have been entirely devoted to these vehicles, up to the V6 iron minks occupying 37608 upwards - so this number block was all vans; and 

2. that part the series 22xxx, up to 22800, was taken up by these vans - one of the pair of prototype 16'6" V6s was in this series, 22325.

You've also opened up the possibility of a block in the 35xxx series, above 35032 but below 35602, the start of an AA3 brake van series.

 

3-plank open goods wagons occupy some of the neighbouring series:

os Lot 257            350         Nos. 36001-36350

os Lot 266            200         Nos. 34724-34767 (44), various (156)

os Lot 279            200         Nos. various

os Lot 281            200         Nos. 34768-34843 (76), various (124)

os Lot 284            100         Nos. 36352 onwards, various      round ends changed to square ends

os Lot 289            200         Nos. 34844-35032? (189?), 36944-36955 (12)

os Lot 294            200         Nos. 36444-36643

os Lot 295            100         Nos. 36644-36743

os Lot 296            200         Nos. 36744-36943

which provides a reasonable fit to the Lot numbers of the vans.

 

From the frequency with which they appear in photos, I suspect that they were built in rather larger quantities than one would suppose from Atkins. Given that Lots seem not often to exceed around 200 vehicles, are there some missing lots? I'm thinking there must have been a couple of thousand. 

 

I've updated my little list, thanks to your extra numbers.

 

Atkins et al wagon numbers up to c1905.pdf

 

On the strength of my hunch 2, I numbered thusly:

 

1906346979_GWoutsideframedvanNo.22378.JPG.b36353993cfe4f558549b8e56cf2f63a.JPG

 

Edited by Compound2632
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I read a post the other day that suggests this information might be found in the NRM:

 

www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/148252-wagon-diagram-o2-o10-build-dates-and-photo-details/&do=findComment&comment=3706267

Edited by richbrummitt
Memory recall
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It may be worth asking Robin Simmonds as he may well have picked up information while researching the Port Talbot Railway.

Jonathan

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Mark,

Here are the running numbers of early GWR covered goods as built:

 

FA9295EF-4B3A-46EB-8C5A-021F48775AB6.jpeg.4587b94c26dcb0418c696542e0ae51ad.jpegWith the exception of the first lot they were 14’10 x 6’3 x 6’9 (l x h x w).  The first lot was 8” longer and wider and 6” taller, was this a case on external rather than internal dimensions?

Edited by Penrhos1920
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@Penrhos1920, you have a spreadsheet... You must also have uncovered information that wasn't available to Atkins et al.? I hope you won't take it amiss if I add this information to my list, that I've made available on here.

 

So my hunch about the 37xxx series (and 35xxx series) was correct but the 22xxx series was wrong - I'm going to have to change the number on my model!

 

I take it "& odds" means various low numbers - at least below 10000?

 

But there are slightly over 1,500 vehicles listed here which confirms my hunch that there were rather more, and more lots, than Atkins records.

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Dear All,

 

apologies for not having replied sooner - work gets in the way of all sorts of important things, doesn't it? So a huge "Thank you!" to everyone who has contributed! Our cup truly runneth over!

 

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I've been on the lookout for numbers of these vehicles. Other numbers known to me are:

 

os Lot 339: 37517, 22332; os Lot 358: 27655 (from Atkins)

Photo at Acton c. 1910: 22583, 37023

Photo at Acton c. 1921: 37204

Photo at Chipping Sodbury: 37486

 

The numbers of the vehicles transferred to the R&SBR reinforce a couple of my hunches:

1. that the series 37xxx may have been entirely devoted to these vehicles, up to the V6 iron minks occupying 37608 upwards - so this number block was all vans; and 

2. that part the series 22xxx, up to 22800, was taken up by these vans - one of the pair of prototype 16'6" V6s was in this series, 22325.

You've also opened up the possibility of a block in the 35xxx series, above 35032 but below 35602, the start of an AA3 brake van series.

 

3-plank open goods wagons occupy some of the neighbouring series:

os Lot 257            350         Nos. 36001-36350

os Lot 266            200         Nos. 34724-34767 (44), various (156)

os Lot 279            200         Nos. various

os Lot 281            200         Nos. 34768-34843 (76), various (124)

os Lot 284            100         Nos. 36352 onwards, various      round ends changed to square ends

os Lot 289            200         Nos. 34844-35032? (189?), 36944-36955 (12)

os Lot 294            200         Nos. 36444-36643

os Lot 295            100         Nos. 36644-36743

os Lot 296            200         Nos. 36744-36943

which provides a reasonable fit to the Lot numbers of the vans.

 

From the frequency with which they appear in photos, I suspect that they were built in rather larger quantities than one would suppose from Atkins. Given that Lots seem not often to exceed around 200 vehicles, are there some missing lots? I'm thinking there must have been a couple of thousand. 

 

I've updated my little list, thanks to your extra numbers.

 

Atkins et al wagon numbers up to c1905.pdf 633.1 kB · 5 downloads

 

On the strength of my hunch 2, I numbered thusly:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_10/1906346979_GWoutsideframedvanNo.22378.JPG.b36353993cfe4f558549b8e56cf2f63a.JPG

 

 

Stephen,

 

thank you as always for your erudite observations. I'd tracked down your Atkins numbering spreadsheet a while ago, so I'm glad I could help with filling in some of the missing pieces of the puzzle.

 

Like you, I'd thought it strange that Lots listed in Atkins were so few and far between. Unlike, say, the Midland, the GWR seems to have built its wagons in relatively small numbers, the 200 vans of osLot239 seems fairly typical of the "larger" Lots. The total number of vans listed in Atkins amounts to 751 vehicles, which seemed extremely unlikely! The fit of the van Lots amongst the open Lots gives an interesting cross-section of what the GWR was building at that time, and also an idea of the proportion of van to open construction as dictated by the perceived needs of traffic.

 

Your van looks rather splendid in its red livery. Can I ask, is it a David Geen kit (sorry it will need renumbering!) and if so, do you have any thoughts/recommendations regarding its' assembly? Thanks!

 

12 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

 

Mark,

Here are the running numbers of early GWR covered goods as built:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_10/FA9295EF-4B3A-46EB-8C5A-021F48775AB6.jpeg.4587b94c26dcb0418c696542e0ae51ad.jpegWith the exception of the first lot they were 14’10 x 6’3 x 6’9 (l x h x w).  The first lot was 8” longer and wider and 6” taller, was this a case on external rather than internal dimensions?

 

Penrhos,

 

if I can echo Stephen's comment, "You have a speadsheet" Or perhaps, "You have a spreadheet?" Or even, "You have a SPREADSHEET!!!" This is absolutely brilliant - thank you so much for sharing this information.

 

I can only agree with Stephen that this shows that there were many, many more vans of this type than are indicated by Atkins. It also confirms that some of the vans transferred to the Rhondda & Swansea Bay Railway were of the Lot numbers that we thought they were, but which weren't listed in Atkins, which is good corroborational information.

 

Incidentally, the dimensions I have are :

 

External dimensions: 15ft-6ins x 7ft-5ins x 10ft-6ins from rail to maximum of roof
Inside dimensions: 14ft-10½ins x 6ft-9ins x 6ft-2ins

 

Thanks again, everyone, for all your help. And if anyone has any further info, please do add it to what we already have.

 

With very best regards,

 

Mark

Edited by 2996 Victor
Dimensions added
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Acting on Penhros' data, I now have No. 22598 of Lot 321:

 

585818553_GWoutsideframedvanNo.22598.JPG.8810713cf37031c4a3768518fff8911d.JPG

 

@2996 Victor, this is an ancient @Ian Kirk kit that I was given second-hand, stripped down and rebuilt about two years ago. If I could ever get my hands on another, I'd be tempted to build it as one of the very similar Great Eastern vans - Holden seems to have taken the design with him from Swindon.

Edited by Compound2632
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11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Acting on Penhros' data, I now have No. 22598 of Lot 321:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_10/585818553_GWoutsideframedvanNo.22598.JPG.8810713cf37031c4a3768518fff8911d.JPG

 

@2996 Victor, this is an ancient @Ian Kirk kit that I was given second-hand, stripped down and rebuilt about two years ago. If I could ever get my hands on another, I'd be tempted to build it as one of the very similar Great Eastern vans - Holden seems to have taken the design with him from Swindon.

 

Hi Stephen,

 

many thanks! Oddly enough, I came across the relevant post on Page 7 of your wagon thread the other day, but didn't twig it! :banghead: (I'm still reading through your thread, as it happens!). A couple of Ian Kirk kits have cropped up on eBay recently, not sure if an outside-framed van was one of them, though.

 

All the best,

 

Mark

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For anyone who's interested, here is a tabulation of known GWR outside-framed wooden-bodied vans that were transferred to the Rhondda & Swansea Bay Railway:

R&SBR ex-GWR OSF Vans.pdf

 

This includes the GWR (Old Series) Lot Numbers and the GWR running numbers carried by the vans before transfer and after re-absorption following the Grouping, together with other recorded details. The superscript numbers in parentheses in the Notes column refer to the person who recorded the details [(1) for Sandy Croall, (2) for Harold Morgan, (3) for John Lewis].

 

It will be noted that a couple of the vans do not have a Lot No. against them, in which case they probably belong among the "odds" noted on @Penrhos1920 tabulation appended above.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

Edited by 2996 Victor
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On 22/10/2019 at 22:35, Compound2632 said:

@Penrhos1920, you have a spreadsheet... You must also have uncovered information that wasn't available to Atkins et al.? I hope you won't take it amiss if I add this information to my list, that I've made available on here.

 

So my hunch about the 37xxx series (and 35xxx series) was correct but the 22xxx series was wrong - I'm going to have to change the number on my model!

 

I take it "& odds" means various low numbers - at least below 10000?

 

But there are slightly over 1,500 vehicles listed here which confirms my hunch that there were rather more, and more lots, than Atkins records.

 

The spreadsheet is a copy of the GWR old series lot book which has wagons until 1893 and all coaches until after nationalisation.  This is the first time I’ve looked at wagons.  

 

Looking at at another record which is is Atkins et al, I think that “odds” means further numbers.  Given that the numbers are generally in numerical order I think higher is implied.  

 

But the “easy” way to get the remaining information you want is to visit the PROat Kew to look at the GWR wagon register for the post R&SBR numbers which are all in one book.  The GWR registers usually have all previous numbers, builder etc. 

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14 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

 

The spreadsheet is a copy of the GWR old series lot book which has wagons until 1893 and all coaches until after nationalisation.  This is the first time I’ve looked at wagons.  

 

Looking at at another record which is is Atkins et al, I think that “odds” means further numbers.  Given that the numbers are generally in numerical order I think higher is implied.  

 

But the “easy” way to get the remaining information you want is to visit the PROat Kew to look at the GWR wagon register for the post R&SBR numbers which are all in one book.  The GWR registers usually have all previous numbers, builder etc. 

 

Are you sure about that information? The registers for the first 100,000 are at York, I understand it is only the later ones at Kew. These are very large tomes so the NRM staff are non too fond of digging out too many at a time, so be careful in selecting which you request for viewing. The original use of a number is crossed through when replaced, and a non GWR company being given a GWR number is quoted, as in my TVR example. Atkins et al have overlooked much of the earlier information and when using it have simplified it (understandably). This replacement went on being done until the end of GWR so even modern wagons such as the Conflat As do not appear in blocks, only sequential numbers as available at the time of build.

 

Fortunately there are no limits on photographing the pages for personal use. An example of a TVR open:

 

277901949_Photograph5.42985wagonregisterentry1stpart.jpg.b55c0c3ddf2159abcb3bfac5973ff933.jpg515030870_Photograph6.42985wagonregisterentry2ndpart.jpg.21682ef38acf3f0113a3be4cbebe3395.jpg828187717_Photograph7.42985wagonregisterentry3rdtpart.jpg.c8e02c288e8d3ad54c262894e605063c.jpg459961469_Photograph8.42985wagonregisterentry4thtpart.jpg.27149e4764dd0dd6513b02135f4fd329.jpg

 

 

Paul

 

 

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Yes Paul.  The final numbers of the renumbered wagons were 101xxx.  There is also a register of condemned wagons at Kew - it’s only a list of numbers and dates, but it does give the previous number of absorbed stock only.

Edited by Penrhos1920
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I'm coming a bit late to this. I couldn't find the attached numbers, provided with the instruction sheet for the Great Western Wagons kit (now David Geen).  They are more or less the same as those provided by Penhros, but since it includes dimensions and Tare I 'm providing them here.

 

IMG_20191025_120733448.jpg.03d2f610ad5faf818f5d4acce3550420.jpg

 

 

Below is my build of the David Geen kit. Looking at the number sequences I was puzzled as to why I chose that number when I built it, 8 years ago.  I now see that it is the number featured in the drawing of L358*, fig 350 in Atkins et al. Whether that number is one of the "odds" I don't know. Today, I wouldn't rely on a number off a drawing.  

 

P9256294b.jpg.ad3ece9510a940738b19c3df50902c4a.jpg

 

* Edit: Well that's the Lot number provided on the drawing and in the caption. But there is only one van mentioned in the above lists for this Lot, with another number. The drawing also says "Van 1885", so it's a bit of a muddle. 

Edited by Mikkel
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Hi Mikkel,

 

many thanks for the additional information on these vans - there certainly seems to be a lot more to them than Atkins suggests!

 

I realise that you built your van eight years ago, but did you find it to be a good kit to build?

 

EDIT

 

I'V distilled the information we have so far gathered into an expanded spreadsheet, and note that the list from the Great Western Wagons instructions courtesy of @Mikkel corresponds closely with @Penrhos1920's spreadsheet above, which is of course what we would hope for:

 

GWR Outside-framed Covered Vans Table.pdf

 

There are a few numbers on @Penrhos1920's spreadsheet that don't appear on the GWW instructions, and a couple that could be correct or could refer to the same vehicle with a small typo thrown in, viz

 

osLot252 #2134 and #2137

osLot339 #22332 and #22337

 

I'll keep this spreadsheet updated in the light of further information as and when it appears.

 

One other point with the GWW list is the number of Lots that are noted as having wooden underframes. I don't have access to my copy of Atkins, but I think that it gives the number of the first Lot to be built with iron frames. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me could confirm whether further wooden-underframed vehicles were built after the introduction of iron.

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

Edited by 2996 Victor
New spreadsheet added
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I realise I need to change the tare weight on my model - I can't remember where I got 6-4-2 from. Having changed the number to 22598, I'd better go for 5-14-2.

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These are from a very long time ago so I doubt if many will come up for sale. Even on eBay.      IIRC They were sold as "GWR vintage van" but also packaged up body only as "grounded van body"

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

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19 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

I'V distilled the information we have so far gathered into an expanded spreadsheet

 

Many thanks Mark, very useful.

 

19 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

I realise that you built your van eight years ago, but did you find it to be a good kit to build?

 

I remember it as being quite straightforward, like most of the kits from that range. There are a few photos here:

 

 

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Having somehow missed out on Ian's kit (I only found out it existed when it was no longer available!), I scratch built one, but managed to get the dimensions wrong. It sits on a Ratio ore wagon underframe and is earmarked for rebuilding. One day....

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