Miss Prism Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Penryn, c 1920. I've never seen anything like this before. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Looks Midland to me. Inherited from one of the Welsh constituents maybe? Jason 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted October 23, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 23, 2019 It is not one of them but the Bishop's Castle Railway had some very similar ones so it could have been built by a wagon company for almost any of the small companies. But not Rhymney or Barry. Jonathan 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 23, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Miss Prism said: I've never seen anything like this before. You should get out more! Certainly Midland - the earlier version of D298. The Midland sold some old rolling stock to various minor companies in the early years of the 20th century, either directly or through agents. There were certainly bogie carriages sold to the M&SWJR and 6-wheelers to the Brecon & Merthyr (or was it the Neath & Brecon?) - all of 1880s vintage. So I would imagine this vehicle has come to the Great Western by way of one of those companies. Which would mean that the photo must be after 1922? Edited October 23, 2019 by Compound2632 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted October 23, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 23, 2019 3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: Looks Midland to me. That was my first thought too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham456 Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Rushed to check up the skaters MR cattle wagon but that has five planks on the side and this one has six (I think) Makeing it the early version, rats thought I would have something different, still I suppose I could get the craft knife out got until the weekends Taunton show to decide weather to add it to the shopping list with H&A 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 23, 2019 Author Share Posted October 23, 2019 43 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: Which would mean that the photo must be after 1922? Yes, very likely. Early to late '20s would have been a better guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Don't think its a ex-midland one as the number of gaps in the side planks are wrong. Midland ones only had two gaps and the SDJR had 3 and there looks like 5 gaps to me. but that doesn't mean that the next owner didn't change the number of gaps between the planks. It might be M&SWJR as they had vans similar but not identical to the midland ones. Marc 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 23, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Furness Wagon said: Don't think its a ex-midland one as the number of gaps in the side planks are wrong. Midland ones only had two gaps I think you are thinking of the ends not the sides. Midland D298 Large Cattle Wagon built to Drg. 1037 between 1895 and 1903, at Derby, 26 November 1909: NRM DY 9165, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum. Midland D298 Large Cattle Wagon built to Drg. 2242 from 1905 onwards, same place and day: NRM DY 9164, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum. Since No. 17902 is evidently on its first outing, presumably it's from Lot 715 or Lot 719. I think it's evident that the Penryn vehicle is one of the earlier wagons to Drg. 1037, or possibly one dating from the 1880s to Drg. 101 which only differed in details. I have the impression the roof is flatter than in the two illustrations above, which might point to it being earlier. The Midland Railway Study Centre has posted Drg. 1008, which applies to a single lot of 1894; I believe this only differs from Drg. 1037 in details of running gear. There's no limewash on the Penryn wagon, which suggests that the photo dates from after the practice of disinfecting cattle wagons with limewash was prohibited - 1926? Edited October 23, 2019 by Compound2632 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 We both might be wrong. Look at the diagonals and the angles they don't match. It could be a Medium van 16'6 or 16'3 on a 10' wheel base they were produced earlier and there for more likely to have been sold off to other companies as the large ones too over their duties. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 23, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 23, 2019 @Furness Wagon, I believe you are right. On the large cattle wagons, the diagonals on the body side and door are pretty much parallel; on the medium, the bodyside diagonal is at a steeper angle than the door diagonal; I agree we see this in the Penryn vehicle. I'm also looking at the proportions of the open sections to the width of the doors; they doo look too short compared to D298. The 16'3" medium cattle wagons, D293, were built 1885-91, making them contemporary with the carriages that were being sold to the various minor lines. There was only one lot of the D294 16'6" medium wagons, in 1893. Point to you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 The next question, now the van has been ID'ed, is how has it ended up in the ownership of the GWR? Which company were they sold to? and when were they sold? The B&M did have a collection of other companies wagons so it could be one of theirs. There is no numbers on the photo which might have given a clue. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 24, 2019 Author Share Posted October 24, 2019 6 hours ago, Furness Wagon said: now the van has been ID'ed Hang on a mo. Are we saying this was an ex-M&SWJR vehicle, whose design was an MR-based 'squashed-D298'? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 24, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Miss Prism said: Hang on a mo. Are we saying this was an ex-M&SWJR vehicle, whose design was an MR-based 'squashed-D298'? It's a Midland Railway medium cattle wagon, built at Derby sometime in the date range 1885-93 that has seen service on the Midland and then been sold second-hand to a Great Western constituent, probably sometime around c. 1910, possibly the M&SWJR or B&M (or was it N&B?) - companies that were in the Midland orbit pre-Grouping and are known to have bought second hand Midland carriages of similar 1880s vintage. Edited October 24, 2019 by Compound2632 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigw Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 According to the essert Midland wagon book, this would be a Diagram 293 - 375 of which were built between 1885 and 1891. These were 16' 3" long - or it could be a Diagram 294 of which 100 were built in 1893. these were 16' 6" long. Probably a Diagram 293. Craig W Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 I have my fingers crossed for a D293 as I have a kit for one and it would be different on the layout. Selfish I know. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 24, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 24, 2019 @Furness Wagon, that's 7 mm/ft, I assume? @billbedford (Mousa Models) has both diagrams of medium cattle wagon on his 4 mm/ft "to do" list. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePipersSon Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 In 1896, the M&SWJR had 15 cattle wagons built to the Midland Railway design, on steel underframes. All of them passed to the GWR on grouping. Tom Source - Midland & South Western Junction Railway volume 3 - carriages and wagons, by Wild Swan Publications. Tom 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 24, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 24, 2019 31 minutes ago, ThePipersSon said: In 1896, the M&SWJR had 15 cattle wagons built to the Midland Railway design, on steel underframes. Ah, but which Midland design? - i.e. how long over headstocks? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 I want to say the large one 18ft but I could be wrong Marc 3 hours ago, Compound2632 said: @Furness Wagon, that's 7 mm/ft, I assume? @billbedford (Mousa Models) has both diagrams of medium cattle wagon on his 4 mm/ft "to do" list. Yes 7mm 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted October 25, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 25, 2019 Sorry to put a spanner in the works but I have just come across a source (HMRS Journal, 1983 page 159) which states that the BCR cattle wagons of this design were built by S J Claye. So the one under discussion here could be from the same builder and not ex Midland. Do we have access to S J Claye records? Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 25, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 25, 2019 12 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said: Sorry to put a spanner in the works but I have just come across a source (HMRS Journal, 1983 page 159) which states that the BCR cattle wagons of this design were built by S J Claye. So the one under discussion here could be from the same builder and not ex Midland. Do we have access to S J Claye records? Jonathan Nevertheless it's a Midland design, which makes it being a second-hand Midland vehicle the most straightforward explanation. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Except that private builders routinely copied the designs of the larger railways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 Mike Barnsley records that MSWJR cattle trucks numbered 192-206 were built by the Midland....RC&WCo in 1896 and were 18' 5" long (internal measurement). No doubt the MRC&W did rip off a suitable MR design. The GWR gave them numbers 16178-16196 (with a gap at 16183). They had metal under frames, and were given GWR OK oil boxes, so lasted into the mid-30s. I might even have a photo or two somewhere... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2996 Victor Posted November 4, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 4, 2019 (edited) Great Western Way, bottom of page 278, has a builder's photograph of M&SWJR cattle wagon No.203 in this style. Unfortunately, the builder isn't quoted. Comparison with photographs in Midland Wagons Vol.2 shows a definite family resemblance to D298, while Plate 250 shows the 1875 wagons built by the Gloucester Wagon Co, who may have retained the design for other customers. Cheers, Mark Edited November 5, 2019 by 2996 Victor Running Number added 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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