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"Hawkesbury" - the engine shed area is no more.....


halsey
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He's right, and he's wrong.  And in some places, he's really wrong.  (Someone wrong on the internet, say it ain't so!)

 

Here's my take on it, from basic scientific and materials principles.

 

TL;DR;  If you're just going clean and not treat afterwards, use a contact cleaner with an anti-corrosion residue (like CRC or Inox.)  But, have you considered using graphite as a conductive and anti-corrosive barrier?  TRY NOT TO USE ANYTHING ABRASIVE AT ALL, INCLUDING EMERY CLOTH!

 

Don't use emery cloth, for all gods' sakes.  If you need to clean paint off the tracks, just get a piece of wood with a quick spray of your chosen contact cleaner.  The soft, fibrous nature of wood will clean the track without (much) abrasion, and you can apply a bit more mechanical force.

 

Nickel silver does oxidise quite well, ostensibly because it contains a fair bit of zinc.  Ergo, if you clean the track, it will get 'dirty' (or unconductive) again.  The question isn't how much oxide/dirt there is, but how much of the surface creates a conduction path when it's cleaned.  The more pitted and scratched the surface is, when you clean it, you can't get the dirt/oxide out of the pits, so your conductivity goes down.

 

Use emery cloth, and you're just creating macro-sized grooves and pits into which all your dirt and oxide collects and it gets harder and harder to get out.  Don't do it, kids.

 

Contact cleaners come in all sorts, some better than others.  Yes, IPA may not be the best, but that's not because it contains water, it's because it's really good at cleaning the oxide layer off...  which means the oxide layer forms afterwards really consistently - compare it to watching an oxide layer form on aluminium after you clean it off with liquid mercury (I'm sure you can find a Youtube of that.)

 

So...  how might you get to the point where you don't have to clean your tracks?

 

Well, our Aussie friend told you how you might do it: make a conduction path.  So, if you can coat your track in something conductive that doesn't oxidise immediately after it has been cleaned...

 

Graphite: https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/sr201802_tooltips.pdf

 

 

Olivia's Trains do graphite sticks but any soft artist's or woodworker's pencil will do the job.

 

The big downside is that graphite is a lubricant, so if you have gradients, you're in for trouble - so consider it carefully.  (Michael Edge says it's not a big deal:  "I know all the theoretical arguments about lubrication and difficulty with gradients but my new layout (Wentworth Junction) has 1 in 40 gradients and there's no trouble. Admittedly the trains on the visible part are all banked but there's an equivalent gradient up out of the fiddle yard going the other way and most of the locos have no difficulty lifting 60 wagons in this direction.  Never mind the theory - just try it.")

 

You should only be using just enough of it to fill the pores of the metal rail.  In theory, your cleaning regimen afterwards is simply a light wipe every so often with a dry cloth, and if you detect poor performance, then get out your contact cleaner (and IPA would be fine) and then re-graphite it again afterwards before that nasty oxygen has a chance to attack the cleaned surface.

 

If you do just want to clean, then after you've done so, simply run a clean dry cloth around as much as you can bear.  This polishes the surface - you're trying to provide as smooth a finish as possible so the pits are small and the oxide layer on the top surface is as thin as possible.  If you already have scratched track, then try T-cut or Jewellers rouge - as fine an abrasive compound as you can, and then clean it off after with conrtact cleaner or IPA.  Again, you're attempting to make the surface as polished as possible.

 

Good luck!

Edited by FoxUnpopuli
Found a respected RMWebber using it - quote added and minor edits to suit.
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VERY informative - thanks

 

Over time I have "cleaned" with 1200 wet and dry (used dry) and IPA so graphite sounds like the way to go as I have no gradients and any "scratches" will be very minor

 

IF others agree - what is the best way to apply graphite and does this then become a regular process - weekly /monthly annually??

 

I accept there are no right answers here but experience is what I'm after and haven't got!

 

Thanks

 

My "contact" will be intermittent for a few months but I am watching.....................

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No experience of graphite but I am suspicious of it for two reasons:

1. Adding a substance periodically means it will gradually build up, move around and start to collect in places.

2. No one has yet been able to explain to me how it works...

 

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Perhaps we can ask @Michael Edge for his practical experience of graphite on nickel silver track?

 

As for my experience, from 20+ years ago: you don't need a lot.  It's basically a thin layer of a conductive material, that in itself is chemically stable. It sits in the pores of the metal surface so it will redistribute. If you can see graphite dust, you've used too much. Aside from a imparting a subtle change in colour and slight dulling of the rail (iirc) you shouldn't be able to see it.  Because it's a lubricant, dirt actually doesn't stick to it very well either - at the micro level.  At the macro level, you might see a small decrease in traction.

 

Graphite as a chemical substance is a flat hexagonal matrix of carbon atoms.  These matrices sit so flat they form layers - which is why it lubricates as the layers can slide over each other. It shares electrons so well across the hexagonal matrix it becomes a fair electrical conductor - unusual for a non-metallic substance. Its chemical makeup is very stable - it doesn't in itself oxidise or boil away.

 

If you want to stop a susceptible metal corroding, then you need to coat the surface with something.  Metals like aluminium or stainless steel form chemically and physically stable oxide layers so we don't worry about them so much.  With steel, to combat that unstable oxide we know as rust, we try to separate the oxygen in the air from the metal surface by painting, plating or otherwise coating it.  With copper or brass, polishing the surface to a high sheen works well, as you're reducing the surface area available for the oxygen to get a grip on the metal - and thus, it works with steel too.  If you want a fun experiment, take a piece of mild steel, scuff half of it with some 400 grit emery, put the other half under a polisher until it's as reflective as chrome, and then leave it out in the rain.  It will all rust eventually, but the polished half will take a good while longer.  I suspect if you wiped a portion of the polished side in graphite, it would be improved further still.

 

Nickel-silver does oxidise, and the oxide layer is a combination of copper, nickel and zinc oxides, mostly coppers.  In theory, they are insulators - or at best semi-conductors - but in practice the rail can be heavily visibly oxidised and still conduct enough current to propel your locomotive. The black/green mix is relatively easy to clean off, but will embed itself into the pores of the metal surface - and also transmit itself as a 'dirt layer' onto anything running over it, depositing itself on your locomotive and rolling stock wheels.

 

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9 hours ago, halsey said:

what is the best way to apply graphite and does this then become a regular process - weekly /monthly annually??

 

before we go off topic into chemistry lessons (which is all good BTW) practical application tips please

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58 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

before we go off topic into chemistry lessons (which is all good BTW) practical application tips please

 

Sorry.  You do not need to do it often.  Full layout, once a year, local problem spots do as and when.  It's a much more common practice in the US and one model railroader stated he'd done it once when he built his layout three years previously, and had not really done a complete wipe since.

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Sorry Julian. Can I just follow up on this a little bit? I really want to know what the Graphite actually does!

 

3 hours ago, FoxUnpopuli said:

Perhaps we can ask @Michael Edge for his practical experience of graphite on nickel silver track?

 

As for my experience, from 20+ years ago: you don't need a lot.  It's basically a thin layer of a conductive material, that in itself is chemically stable. It sits in the pores of the metal surface so it will redistribute. If you can see graphite dust, you've used too much. Aside from a imparting a subtle change in colour and slight dulling of the rail (iirc) you shouldn't be able to see it.  Because it's a lubricant, dirt actually doesn't stick to it very well either - at the micro level.  At the macro level, you might see a small decrease in traction.

 

Graphite as a chemical substance is a flat hexagonal matrix of carbon atoms.  These matrices sit so flat they form layers - which is why it lubricates as the layers can slide over each other. It shares electrons so well across the hexagonal matrix it becomes a fair electrical conductor - unusual for a non-metallic substance. Its chemical makeup is very stable - it doesn't in itself oxidise or boil away.

 

If you want to stop a susceptible metal corroding, then you need to coat the surface with something.  Metals like aluminium or stainless steel form chemically and physically stable oxide layers so we don't worry about them so much.  With steel, to combat that unstable oxide we know as rust, we try to separate the oxygen in the air from the metal surface by painting, plating or otherwise coating it.  With copper or brass, polishing the surface to a high sheen works well, as you're reducing the surface area available for the oxygen to get a grip on the metal - and thus, it works with steel too.  If you want a fun experiment, take a piece of mild steel, scuff half of it with some 400 grit emery, put the other half under a polisher until it's as reflective as chrome, and then leave it out in the rain.  It will all rust eventually, but the polished half will take a good while longer.  I suspect if you wiped a portion of the polished side in graphite, it would be improved further still.

 

Nickel-silver does oxidise, and the oxide layer is a combination of copper, nickel and zinc oxides, mostly coppers.  In theory, they are insulators - or at best semi-conductors - but in practice the rail can be heavily visibly oxidised and still conduct enough current to propel your locomotive. The black/green mix is relatively easy to clean off, but will embed itself into the pores of the metal surface - and also transmit itself as a 'dirt layer' onto anything running over it, depositing itself on your locomotive and rolling stock wheels.

 

 

So Mark, are you saying that the graphite is primarily an oxidation retardant? And the fact that it is conductive is what allows it to be used in this context?

 

Does it serve any purpose in preventing dirt building up above it, or in repelling dust? If not, then won't you sill get interruptions in pickup due to those things and have to clean the track to get rid of them (and then redeposit graphite again)?

 

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4 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Sorry Julian. Can I just follow up on this a little bit? I really want to know what the Graphite actually does!

 

So Mark, are you saying that the graphite is primarily an oxidation retardant? And the fact that it is conductive is what allows it to be used in this context?

 

Does it serve any purpose in preventing dirt building up above it, or in repelling dust? If not, then won't you sill get interruptions in pickup due to those things and have to clean the track to get rid of them (and then redeposit graphite again)?

 

 

I agree - sorry Julian, so quick answers to Phil's qs.

 

Oxidation retardant: Yes, and yes, this is because it's a thin coating over the rails that is an oxygen barrier that happens to be conductive.

 

Preventing dirt oe dust buildup, techncailly no - although dust won't 'stick' to graphite as well as it would cling to surface with more friction (think of waxing your car) but most 'dirt' on the rails of Nickel Silver track is corrosion anyway.

 

If your track is heavily dusted or dirtied (from say, plaster dust from renovation work) then unfortunately yes, you will need to physically clean your track - probably more a vacuum cleaning exercise.  If you've graphited the rails, further cleaning might be simply a dry felt pad - a Hornby or Dapol rail cleaner - run dry under light pressure. 

 

Further discussion - selected from a Google search: https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine/mrh-2015-05-may/fight-dirty-rails-with-graphite

 

OK, for the thread's sake, anything much more on this, shall we find other threads on RMW discussing it and take it there?  :)

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Hey - don't overly worry about me if others are finding it interesting .....I'm going to source a 2B graphite stick and woodworking pencils (if I haven't got one already in my tool box) - useful point the - "don't use anything other than B" cos it has clay in it! 

 

I've got 2 rubbers one Peco and an other (reputable but cant remember) and I don't like the residue they leave behind

 

I will report back.

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  • 3 months later...
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Back again now beginning to think of the coming winters activities................. 

 

Not a lot of boating done but what we did was enjoyable 

 

New dog (Jet) now settling in very well and Shrimp (who broke his neck) is back to normal just no collars and harness lead walking for the rest of his life.

 

Thoughts for the winter include a possible airbrush purchase to try something new (not sure) - weathering (lots of it), conquering track cleaning (I wish), install lighting/furnishings in rolling stock wherever possible ................ that's the pre Christmas list to get me started 

 

BFN

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Hi all,

 

Just an update - not a lot going on on the railway due to - boat changes - now done - recent passing of Mother in Law and all that involves - funeral 3rd Nov - my now confirmed long awaited Hip operation (19th Nov - with full isolation required 14 days before!)

 

So lots of planning going on and prioritising all the stuff I was giving myself until Christmas to get done :(

 

BUT

 

I have managed to get lots of weathering materials together so I should be able to do a bit of that soon after the op and I bought a new loco Bachmann Stanier Mogul 2-6-0 which is now DCC fitted and very successful  and a Dapol track cleaning wagon which is a great investment - stock is running better than ever I'm going to paint it satin black and weather it in due course.........might be my first pre hip lockdown project!

 

And ........I took the easy way out with lighting and fitted train Tech to all Stanier coaches - very good and very easy to fit but a bit pricey 

 

Is it just us - we always seem to get stuff happening all in one go - its never nicely spread out!

 

 

IMG_0891.JPG

IMG_0890.JPG

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Always good to see your work Jules, but sorry to hear the family news.  That second pic gives an astonishing 3-D effect looking over the wall to the right of the signal box and apparently (?) down into lower ground beyond - you've hit the perfect camera angle, which is presumably the normal viewing angle?  Is the wall actually tight up against the backscene?  It would be interesting to see that shot again with the camera at platform level .......

 

Cheers, Chris

 

 

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1 hour ago, Chimer said:

Always good to see your work Jules, but sorry to hear the family news.  That second pic gives an astonishing 3-D effect looking over the wall to the right of the signal box and apparently (?) down into lower ground beyond - you've hit the perfect camera angle, which is presumably the normal viewing angle?  Is the wall actually tight up against the backscene?  It would be interesting to see that shot again with the camera at platform level .......

 

Cheers, Chris

 

 

 

Thanks.

Always interesting to understand another perspective - yes the wall is stuck on to the back scene and is made from app 5mm thick foam board - I will gladly take the photo for you tomorrow.

J

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11 hours ago, halsey said:

 

Thanks.

Always interesting to understand another perspective - yes the wall is stuck on to the back scene and is made from app 5mm thick foam board - I will gladly take the photo for you tomorrow.

J

 

 

Here you are ..........

 

IMG_0899.JPG

IMG_0900.JPG

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Still looks good.  You've somehow got a measure of depth in there that works really well.

 

The transition from 3-D to 2-D is something that fascinates me.  Done well it's fantastic, for me that corner really qualifies :good:

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29 minutes ago, Chimer said:

Still looks good.  You've somehow got a measure of depth in there that works really well.

 

The transition from 3-D to 2-D is something that fascinates me.  Done well it's fantastic, for me that corner really qualifies :good:

 

Thanks - that's high praise coming from you ..................... its obviously just a natural talent of mine :boast:

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Hip now done and all successful - it will be a while before I can get to the railway (literally) but all good 

NHS fantastic - in Thursday at 7am op 2.00 same day out of bed Friday midday discharged Sat midday - precautions were excellent just "Joe public" continuing to amaze with app 10% refusing to wear masks once through all the checks people were literally taking them off!

Good to get the first week out of the way a couple more and the worst will be behind me, its my second so I know what to expect - its the lack of sleep (duration and comfort) which is the real challenge for me.

Back to watching what others are up to for now.................... 

Cheers all

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I'm back on the railway - my hip is progressing very well (12 weeks this Thursday since the op - walking dogs, general life, driving, stairs etc all OK ) but standing is still hard on my back muscles as is ducking under the lift out section so railway time is limited.

 

Whilst modelling from my chair I bought a couple of old Wills kits kits from a forum member and one is well underway - lots of detailing to do but not too bad for the first plastic kit I've built for 40+ years - I think the the last one was a Tamiya Formula One Renault Turbo when I was about 20 - my hands were definitely more agile then 

 

 

IMG_0974.JPG

 

My trouble is it has come out as a larger structure than I envisaged and I cant work out to where to put it that is "correct" - I sort of feel I want to hide it or cut the back 1/3 out of it to reduce its impact.

 

I haven't got a crossing - is it OK to locate it in a goods yard setting??

 

Good to be back even though progress will be limited for a while......

 

I've even been contemplating another "lockdown" project......  involving an "end to end" O gauge layout with 2 stations and a loop around some of the garden  - probably just a dream but I do enjoy building more than operating.....................dare I try my luck with SWMBO for another railway space just to try it out - O gauge (garden based) does appeal (apart from the cost!)

 

On a different subject - 

I'm not sure if any of you reading this will live in the wider Leominster area BUT I have a large quantity of clean/dry MDF going begging as I am dismantling a large set of wardrobes incl 3 app 7ft x 2.5ft doors and 2 shorter ones (see picture in classifieds) - I'm happy to donate these to a fellow enthusiast as they would make great boards with some additional framing.

PM me if they are of interest - sorry I won't split these, they must all go together to be worth it.

 

 

Edited by halsey
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Hi Julian,

Glad you are back to modelling and that all is progressing well with the hip!

 

Well, we are in another pretty pickle, so lets just carry on modelling!

 

You may not remember, but I am more interested in operating than modelling, partly because I am no good at woodwork, track laying or electrics!

So having got fed up after Christmas with waiting for the guys down to build my layout to get to my build, (for good reasons, which I understand), I went and bought a ready to go 8ft x 28 ins scenic end to end layout, extended by its builder for me with a 4ftx 3ft fiddle yard. All to fit one side of my 12ft Railway room.

It is modernish scenic, but have worked out a justification story around the redevelopement of an old wagon repair shop site that allows me to run my 1960s trains as well as my modern stuff!

So, it is up and running, and I have enjoyed just playing trains for the last two weeks! Now I need to work out a proper timetable.

 

So looking forward to some updates and pics from your layout, and I will post a few of mine.

If you want to see more of what I have been up to have a look at my thread "Lower Thames Yard"?

 

Cheers for now

Paul 

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14 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi Julian,

Glad you are back to modelling and that all is progressing well with the hip!

 

Well, we are in another pretty pickle, so lets just carry on modelling!

 

You may not remember, but I am more interested in operating than modelling, partly because I am no good at woodwork, track laying or electrics!

So having got fed up after Christmas with waiting for the guys down to build my layout to get to my build, (for good reasons, which I understand), I went and bought a ready to go 8ft x 28 ins scenic end to end layout, extended by its builder for me with a 4ftx 3ft fiddle yard. All to fit one side of my 12ft Railway room.

It is modernish scenic, but have worked out a justification story around the redevelopement of an old wagon repair shop site that allows me to run my 1960s trains as well as my modern stuff!

So, it is up and running, and I have enjoyed just playing trains for the last two weeks! Now I need to work out a proper timetable.

 

So looking forward to some updates and pics from your layout, and I will post a few of mine.

If you want to see more of what I have been up to have a look at my thread "Lower Thames Yard"?

 

Cheers for now

Paul 

 

Hi Paul,

Good to be in touch again - I remember filling lockdown with the railway last year caused me some issues with over exposure to what for me needs to be a winter pastime so hopefully this year we will be allowed a bit more freedom from say mid April onwards (start of the school summer term) so I can properly divert/revert to summer boating winter modelling which is a great retirement balance.

 

I've got my first jab on Saturday (65-70s) so that's progress but I guess as SWMBO is in the 55-60 group that will be a while away yet for us both to feel protected.

 

I have found your thread so will start to catch up.........

J

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Julian,

I know what you mean about a balance! One of my other interests that got wiped out last year is Traction engine Rallies/Country Fairs.

Lets hope for better things to come!

We have both had out jabs last Saturday, as we are in the over 70s group. So in another 3 weeks we will start to feel a bit safer!

Take care both of you,

Regards

Paul

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First run around with new Dapol cleaning wagon 

 

Quite a difference for 20 mins running around app 50% of the track - goods yard, wharf areas and station platforms - new and used pads shown.

 

This was on track that truly looked clean and had been "cleaned" (pre Nov) with a track rubber.

 

The tank shunter used for the push/pull job runs noticeably better on "push" ie when following the cleaning wagon

 

IMG_0977.JPG.ea39dd5a94b9e2d361eb510d95edc843.JPG 

 

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Feeling very virtuous today, as I still can't duck under the lift out section, I have spent 3 days re-organising my work area AND my screw/bolt/nail storage bins/area which was long overdue

 

Very pleased with the work area - I've gained double the worktop area re-purposed some of my spare MDF and had a serious general tidy up and hoover.

 

Far too tidy now but it needed doing.............

 

 

IMG_0986.JPG

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Busy yesterday and today - I decided to completely re-do the track and joint on one of the lift out section tracks - it has always worked OK but wasn't as good as it should have been - 3 joints are on the straight but this one is on a curve and was a bit more of a challenge to get it right.

 

I used a new section of set-track and "spliced" it in and then generally fettled a number of aspects of the bridge and the joint and I am pleased to report that it now all runs very well - and that therefore the layout is fully back in use with my hip managing reasonably well with the inevitable ducking under the lift out.

 

After an extensive clean up of the two main lines (have I said how much I love my Dapol cleaning wagon :lol:

 

I've had a DMU and early LMS Passenger Diesel (rule 1 applies) running with all lights on (incl carriages) 

 

Note to self - I need to get a proper blackout blind/curtain on the window so I can take "dark" shots

 

These shots are taken to the left of the station between the station mouth and the hidden tracks/tunnel entrance 

 

IMG_0988 2.JPG

IMG_0990 2.JPG

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