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"Hawkesbury" - the engine shed area is no more.....


halsey
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1 hour ago, Chimer said:

"Agreeing" anything between more than 2 people on this forum is never going to happen ….. what matters is what you want / don't want, and what will fit (which is where I and XTrackCad are trying to help).

 

The first decision required - do you want to goods trains on the outer circuit to be able to access the yard?  "No" does away with the issue of the slip, as that's all it provides.  "Yes" stretches out the right-hand throat and involves using either the slip, as per my last, or Zomboid's layout which requires the sinuous reversal across the crossover followed by the point into the yard.

 

There are more questions to follow, but knowing this first answer will mean the next question can be more specific!

 

But I should add that the parts list should have included 225 degrees worth of 2nd radius set-track curves, and at least 315 degrees 3rd radius, which the program didn't see because I'd drawn them as flexitrack curves of the appropriate radius (which is much quicker than picking set-track curves from a library which I haven't currently got loaded).  And the amount of flexitrack required is therefore around 15 feet less …..

 

 

 

 

OK thanks and understood - the answer is therefore NO - based on my lack of favour with slips - I'm quite happy with goods activity being operational on the inner circle/loop only

 

Additional set-track curves point is noted.

 

Next question (s)...……………….:rolleyes:

 

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OK, that puts my original idea (Nov 14, bottom of page 2) back in play, remembering that's canal sidings separate from the general goods yard, and blocks the inner circuit while shunting is carried out (a passenger train on that circuit possibly being held offstage for the time required).  The left-hand throat can be easily modded so the loco sidings and goods yard are accessed from a single trailing point, which seemed to be generally acclaimed to be an improvement.

 

So, is shunting clear of the main lines essential, and if not, would you like to revert to that original idea, noting all the siding area layouts can be changed at will to suit whatever pointwork etc you have available.  If shunting clear is essential, then it will basically be a single yard with a track inside of and parallel to the platform roads used as a headshunt, which may or may not take the form of a loop, and if a loop, may or may not also serve as an additional platform road as someone suggested somewhere …. that would make facing goods access to the loop legitimate, I think.

 

Basic question - back to the original or not?  If not, thoughts on some of the other options will be useful …… but I'm off to the theatre in an hour!!

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55 minutes ago, Chimer said:

OK, that puts my original idea (Nov 14, bottom of page 2) back in play, remembering that's canal sidings separate from the general goods yard, and blocks the inner circuit while shunting is carried out (a passenger train on that circuit possibly being held offstage for the time required).  The left-hand throat can be easily modded so the loco sidings and goods yard are accessed from a single trailing point, which seemed to be generally acclaimed to be an improvement.

 

So, is shunting clear of the main lines essential, and if not, would you like to revert to that original idea, noting all the siding area layouts can be changed at will to suit whatever pointwork etc you have available.  If shunting clear is essential, then it will basically be a single yard with a track inside of and parallel to the platform roads used as a headshunt, which may or may not take the form of a loop, and if a loop, may or may not also serve as an additional platform road as someone suggested somewhere …. that would make facing goods access to the loop legitimate, I think.

 

Basic question - back to the original or not?  If not, thoughts on some of the other options will be useful …… but I'm off to the theatre in an hour!!

 

I am very conscious of my lack of real knowledge here (so am happy to be guided by my old adage "what would you do if it was your layout"?)  but continuing to follow my instincts (as with the slip) shunting clear of the main lines appeals - if I can have 2 trains running continuously and one shunting that would be good and justify DCC 

Isn't this therefore a combination of your two options with the originals canal/goods yard layout themes and the second options loop configuration minus the slip??

PLEASE do continue to feel free to tell me what I should do - I have faith as last time

OK??

Enjoy the theatre

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Well, that's what I would do if it was my layout :) (though DCC is amply justified by its ability to put a second engine on to the back of a train and take it away, without worrying about isolating sections).  So - shall we have a loop, and make it a platform road as well as a headshunt?  Or just reverse into the yard, with a headshunt kicking back in the general direction of the loco sidings (I really don't like the idea of the loco sidings approach doubling up as the headshunt, though I suppose it could).  I'm leaning in favour of the loop which is also a platform road, for whatever that's worth.  Either way, a canal siding where you want it is not difficult.

 

It's Lenny Henry talking about being Lenny Henry, by the way ……. off in 10 mins now!

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2 hours ago, Chimer said:

Well, that's what I would do if it was my layout :) (though DCC is amply justified by its ability to put a second engine on to the back of a train and take it away, without worrying about isolating sections).  So - shall we have a loop, and make it a platform road as well as a headshunt?  Or just reverse into the yard, with a headshunt kicking back in the general direction of the loco sidings (I really don't like the idea of the loco sidings approach doubling up as the headshunt, though I suppose it could).  I'm leaning in favour of the loop which is also a platform road, for whatever that's worth.  Either way, a canal siding where you want it is not difficult.

 

It's Lenny Henry talking about being Lenny Henry, by the way ……. off in 10 mins now!

 

Love LH

 

I think we are in agreement then - whilst you were writing I was just re-visting Davids post sketch of Nov 16 which is reflective of these/our thoughts - I think

 

Yes to the loop/platform

 

Enjoy

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I trust Lennie delivered

 

My weekend wasn't great my first run at ID self adhesive backscenes didn't deliver so I have ordered more and different scenes - thrown one away sent two back and one is on ebay as I unrolled it alot

 

IMHO the format is VG (not cheap) and I used it last time although it takes a bit of handling but I just chose the wrong scenes based on last time when I should have been braver and tried something new.

 

After another review I think where "we" have ended up is excellent and I will shop accordingly once the final list is to hand.

 

I am assuming set-track is being used on the mainlines, the under the worktop shelf and the "hidden" area only

 

Remembering my problems last time, referred to earlier, what is my starting point for setting out

 

I know I'm jumping ahead a bit but just to get my head around the principles of the wiring 

 

No isolators anywhere?

 

Are all tracks incl sidings wired to be live regardless of points?

 

How many feeds to the circuit are needed disregarding loops around points (if i'm right about that) - where and which way round (polarity) 

 

What wire dia is needed for DCC

 

How is the turntable and its bays wired - as per last time??

 

Thanks

 

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OK -  I'm on dangerous ground now as I'm going to ask an operational question :excl:

 

I think I "get" the goods aspects (internal anticlockwise "up" line)

 

My questions relate to the (external clockwise "down" line) passenger operations - am I right in thinking that passenger traffic can only use both sides of the main "station" platform - if a r/h point was placed before the entrance to the platform complex it would be able to use both and if this isn't done what's the point of the L/H point on the "down" line just before the hidden workshop shelf area

 

Sometimes daft questions need asking...…………………...

 

 

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Clockwise trains use the outer track, anticlockwise trains use the inner. Anticlockwise passenger trains would use the inner track and platform (hence the bolt hole siding top left to get the freight out of the way). You'd have to shunt the carriages across from the outer sidings to form the inner passenger train, which is part of the play value of the scheme.

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51 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Clockwise trains use the outer track, anticlockwise trains use the inner. Anticlockwise passenger trains would use the inner track and platform (hence the bolt hole siding top left to get the freight out of the way). You'd have to shunt the carriages across from the outer sidings to form the inner passenger train, which is part of the play value of the scheme.

 

Sorry - am I missing something where/what bolt hole siding top left??

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15 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

The one next to the loco yard

 

apologies - I was forgetting the "hidden one" which (probably) isn't now going to be hidden - that's what its for :huh:

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That siding may be less critical if the station has a goods loop that you can park the freight train in, though I would still retain it - sidings such as that which are used to hold slow trains whilst faster ones pass are an entirely realistic feature and one that you don't see modelled all that often.

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11 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

That siding may be less critical if the station has a goods loop that you can park the freight train in, though I would still retain it - sidings such as that which are used to hold slow trains whilst faster ones pass are an entirely realistic feature and one that you don't see modelled all that often.

 

Understood - I noticed that David had squeezed a short siding into the turntable spur as well .……………...

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Thanks Zomboid, you're reading my mind perfectly ….. please hide that siding and the running lines on the left hand side Julian, even if only behind a wall, 180 degree turns in plain view destroy the illusion …..

 

Right, here we go …… for reference, platforms are numbered from the inside, so P1 is the inner loop and P4 the bay.

 

386096744_h5jpg.jpg.3551c769c788b4463674709b0f389a09.jpg

 

Freight operations (inner anti-clockwise "up" circuit): train arrives at platform 1.  Draw wagons to be dropped off into headshunt, then shunt into home yard as required.  Draw wagons to be picked up into head shunt, reverse onto rest of train, depart .  Canal sidings are a pig (deliberately) as the parked train blocks access - wagons for there will have to be left somewhere in home yard area to be shunted down by the station pilot loco once the train has cleared, similarly wagons to be picked up from there will need to be brought into the home yard before the train arrives.  During shunting, passenger ops can continue using platform 2, with train held there when freight departs.  After departure, freight train moves off scene left and reverses into hidden siding, allowing passenger ops to continue.

 

Freight operations (outer "down" circuit): none, except that I have added a long lie-by siding on the right hand side where a freight train could sit awaiting the chance to do a quick circuit pretending to be the reverse trip working (which wouldn't use our yard).  This siding can be left in plain view!!


Passenger ops (mostly as set out earlier): A down train (arriving at platform 3) can continue or terminate - if it terminates, the coaching stock can be worked into the carriage sidings, or the train can immediately depart in the up direction over the left-hand trailing crossover, with either the same loco having run-round the train or a new loco from the stabling roads.  Same options for an up train using platform 2, plus the possibility of the stock from a terminating train being worked across to the bay platform to await a later down departure (more work here for a station pilot).  Less options from platform 1, due to the position of the right-hand crossover.

 

Stock list: 

Count | Description                      
------+----------------------------------
    3 | Peco SL-86/186 Curved Right
    2 | Peco SL-87/187 Curved Left
    3 | Peco SL-88/188 RH Long turnout
    5 | Peco SL-89/189 LH Long turnout
    5 | Peco SL-91/191 RH Small turnout
    1 | Peco SL-96/196 LH Medium turnout
    5 | Peco ST-226 Setrack curve no2 dbl
    1 | Peco ST-230 Setrack curve no3 Std
    6 | Peco ST-231 Setrack curve no3 dbl
    1 | Turntable, diameter 12.000
    0 | 1184.154 HO Flex Track      

 

There are a couple of radius 3 set-track curves lurking in the canal sidings, otherwise they are all hidden.

 

The other questions;

 

Start with the throats, fiddling to achieve the smooth curves through platforms 2 and 3 (at 48" and 50" radius).  Not pretending this will be easy ….. there is more flexibility elsewhere.

 

Are you using electrofrog or insulfrog points?  If electrofrog, and if you want all tracks live permanently, regardless of point settings, you will need IRJs on every frog rail (but not isolating switches) and feeds to every siding.  With insulfrog, no absolute need for IRJs, although you way wish to use them to break the layout up into switchable sections (maybe up, down and yard) to help with faultfinding.  But you will still need feeds to every siding if you want, e.g., diesels to still make funny noises when parked in a siding with the point against it.  If you don't want that, and are happy to rely on fishplates and point blades for continuity, wiring can be much reduced.  But many people on here swear by having a feed to every separate track.

 

Polarity is not an issue.  Make the rail nearer the operating well positive (say red) and the far rail negative (black), or vice versa, and all will be well.

 

I leave the questions about wire diameter and the turntable to those who have actually used DCC.

 

Over to you!!

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WOW - what can I say apart from thank-you, which isn't enough!

 

This is great and exactly what I wanted and what is needed - no more revisions and I'll leave you in peace for a while other than updates but no pressured questions

 

Insulfrog points

 

Question for DCC users ………………...

 

I assume power feeds to the sidings can just be short runs around points and not multiple main feeds from the main controller

How many main feeds and where to.

 

Thanks for now - off to sort the shopping list against my stock.

 

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

 

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The goods headshunt and the goods siding are very short now, unfortunately. The facing crossover into the goods area niggles me. You could make it trailing, actually, but I'd still do the crossover from the Down line, single slip into the goods yard if it were me. (BTW: See EB10 in my gallery... :wink_mini:)

 

Sorry @Chimer, I feel bad criticising when you've done all the hard work on this!

 

I have some other thoughts and ideas building on Chimer's plan but I don't want to tread on anyone's toes, or spend much on it time if Julian's going to starting building tomorrow!

 

 

Julian: Was your problem with slips about the wiring or operational reliability? Whatever the issue was I'm sure between us we could help you get them under control, if you wanted.

 

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7 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

The goods headshunt and the goods siding are very short now, unfortunately. The facing crossover into the goods area niggles me. You could make it trailing, actually, but I'd still do the crossover from the Down line, single slip into the goods yard if it were me. (BTW: See EB10 in my gallery... :wink_mini:)

 

Sorry @Chimer, I feel bad criticising when you've done all the hard work on this!

 

I have some other thoughts and ideas building on Chimer's plan but I don't want to tread on anyone's toes, or spend much on it time if Julian's going to starting building tomorrow!

 

 

Julian: Was your problem with slips about the wiring or operational reliability? Whatever the issue was I'm sure between us we could help you get them under control, if you wanted.

 

 

I'm happy - but its not only my topic now so this will no doubt run on for those who are interested to develop it further - major track laying will probably start next week - revised backscenes next and shopping

 

Goods/Canal sidings can be tweaked - head shunt also I suppose if "crossover" was moved 

 

The slip issue was an actual operational one which I'm sure was resolvable but no matter its gone now (its now on eBay along with other bits - more to come) 

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55 minutes ago, Chimer said:

Thanks Zomboid, you're reading my mind perfectly ….. please hide that siding and the running lines on the left hand side Julian, even if only behind a wall, 180 degree turns in plain view destroy the illusion …..

 

Right, here we go …… for reference, platforms are numbered from the inside, so P1 is the inner loop and P4 the bay.

 

386096744_h5jpg.jpg.3551c769c788b4463674709b0f389a09.jpg

 

Freight operations (inner anti-clockwise "up" circuit): train arrives at platform 1.  Draw wagons to be dropped off into headshunt, then shunt into home yard as required.  Draw wagons to be picked up into head shunt, reverse onto rest of train, depart .  Canal sidings are a pig (deliberately) as the parked train blocks access - wagons for there will have to be left somewhere in home yard area to be shunted down by the station pilot loco once the train has cleared, similarly wagons to be picked up from there will need to be brought into the home yard before the train arrives.  During shunting, passenger ops can continue using platform 2, with train held there when freight departs.  After departure, freight train moves off scene left and reverses into hidden siding, allowing passenger ops to continue.

 

Freight operations (outer "down" circuit): none, except that I have added a long lie-by siding on the right hand side where a freight train could sit awaiting the chance to do a quick circuit pretending to be the reverse trip working (which wouldn't use our yard).  This siding can be left in plain view!!


Passenger ops (mostly as set out earlier): A down train (arriving at platform 3) can continue or terminate - if it terminates, the coaching stock can be worked into the carriage sidings, or the train can immediately depart in the up direction over the left-hand trailing crossover, with either the same loco having run-round the train or a new loco from the stabling roads.  Same options for an up train using platform 2, plus the possibility of the stock from a terminating train being worked across to the bay platform to await a later down departure (more work here for a station pilot).  Less options from platform 1, due to the position of the right-hand crossover.

 

Stock list: 

Count | Description                      
------+----------------------------------
    3 | Peco SL-86/186 Curved Right
    2 | Peco SL-87/187 Curved Left
    3 | Peco SL-88/188 RH Long turnout
    5 | Peco SL-89/189 LH Long turnout
    5 | Peco SL-91/191 RH Small turnout
    1 | Peco SL-96/196 LH Medium turnout
    5 | Peco ST-226 Setrack curve no2 dbl
    1 | Peco ST-230 Setrack curve no3 Std
    6 | Peco ST-231 Setrack curve no3 dbl
    1 | Turntable, diameter 12.000
    0 | 1184.154 HO Flex Track      

 

There are a couple of radius 3 set-track curves lurking in the canal sidings, otherwise they are all hidden.

 

The other questions;

 

Start with the throats, fiddling to achieve the smooth curves through platforms 2 and 3 (at 48" and 50" radius).  Not pretending this will be easy ….. there is more flexibility elsewhere.

 

Are you using electrofrog or insulfrog points?  If electrofrog, and if you want all tracks live permanently, regardless of point settings, you will need IRJs on every frog rail (but not isolating switches) and feeds to every siding.  With insulfrog, no absolute need for IRJs, although you way wish to use them to break the layout up into switchable sections (maybe up, down and yard) to help with faultfinding.  But you will still need feeds to every siding if you want, e.g., diesels to still make funny noises when parked in a siding with the point against it.  If you don't want that, and are happy to rely on fishplates and point blades for continuity, wiring can be much reduced.  But many people on here swear by having a feed to every separate track.

 

Polarity is not an issue.  Make the rail nearer the operating well positive (say red) and the far rail negative (black), or vice versa, and all will be well.

 

I leave the questions about wire diameter and the turntable to those who have actually used DCC.

 

Over to you!!

 

Sorry to ask but does your magic programme actually plot which item goes where - the curved points aren't totally obvious - only do if its easy otherwise I will buy and play which isn't an issue...………………………….

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1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

The goods headshunt and the goods siding are very short now, unfortunately. The facing crossover into the goods area niggles me. You could make it trailing, actually, but I'd still do the crossover from the Down line, single slip into the goods yard if it were me. (BTW: See EB10 in my gallery... :wink_mini:)

 

Sorry @Chimer, I feel bad criticising when you've done all the hard work on this!

 

I have some other thoughts and ideas building on Chimer's plan but I don't want to tread on anyone's toes, or spend much on it time if Julian's going to starting building tomorrow!

 

 

Julian: Was your problem with slips about the wiring or operational reliability? Whatever the issue was I'm sure between us we could help you get them under control, if you wanted.

 

 

No worries, Phil, it's always worth exploring niggles to avoid going wrong!  The excuse for the facing point is that this is a signalled choice of up platforms for passenger services, so it would be perverse for an up goods to run through platform 2 and reverse into platform 1.  Pulling into platform 1 is just the same as leaving the bulk of the train in the one and only up platform in version 1.  And Julian's clear he's happy with a one-way yard, so there's no need for trailing access from the down line.

 

The headshunt and goods yard sidings can all be extended a bit, if so desired, but the headshunt can take any loco plus 4, most locos plus 5 - and once you've got the wagons you want to play with into the yard, you've got that extra 30 inches to the left of the curved point that starts the sidings fan.

 

All of the sidings areas can be redesigned completely, the loco sidings area in particular has had no real thought given to it and I'm sure could be much improved by anyone with decent knowledge of such facilities.  Taking the "warehouse" away would open up the goods yard area, but I rather like the separation of the two bits of yard.

 

Cheers, Chris

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2 hours ago, Chimer said:

A down train (arriving at platform 3) can continue or terminate - if it terminates, the coaching stock can be worked into the carriage sidings, or the train can immediately depart in the up direction over the left-hand trailing crossover, with either the same loco having run-round the train or a new loco from the stabling roads.

Just to be a bit pedantic (and to increase the play value) would it not have been more likely to shunt the carriages from a terminating train across to platform 2 before departing anticlockwise? (Unless they're heading for the sidings of course) and similarly any anticlockwise trains would depart from platform 2?

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3 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Just to be a bit pedantic (and to increase the play value) would it not have been more likely to shunt the carriages from a terminating train across to platform 2 before departing anticlockwise? (Unless they're heading for the sidings of course) and similarly any anticlockwise trains would depart from platform 2?

 

Don't know, to be honest.  Certainly an option.

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1 hour ago, halsey said:

 

Sorry to ask but does your magic programme actually plot which item goes where - the curved points aren't totally obvious - only do if its easy otherwise I will buy and play which isn't an issue...………………………….

 

The curved points are the left-hand leading to the turntable and the right-hand connected to it; two right-hands on the goods headshunt; and the left-hand in the carriage sidings.  The longs are the six in the throat on the right (all orientated north-south) and the two forming the main-line crossover in the other throat by the station building.  The medium (which could be long or short without much affecting the price of fish) is the one towards the left-hand end of platform 1.  All the others are short, some of which could happily be medium, if you've got any mediums spare.

 

If you wanted to embark on the learning curve (first base isn't that difficult) and get hold of XTrackCad

(http://www.xtrkcad.org/Wikka/HomePage), I could send you the file - you could then see a lot of detailed info and even print out the track plan full size (uses a lot of ink and paper though!).

 

Cheers, Chris

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21 minutes ago, Chimer said:

 

The curved points are the left-hand leading to the turntable and the right-hand connected to it; two right-hands on the goods headshunt; and the left-hand in the carriage sidings.  The longs are the six in the throat on the right (all orientated north-south) and the two forming the main-line crossover in the other throat by the station building.  The medium (which could be long or short without much affecting the price of fish) is the one towards the left-hand end of platform 1.  All the others are short, some of which could happily be medium, if you've got any mediums spare.

 

If you wanted to embark on the learning curve (first base isn't that difficult) and get hold of XTrackCad

(http://www.xtrkcad.org/Wikka/HomePage), I could send you the file - you could then see a lot of detailed info and even print out the track plan full size (uses a lot of ink and paper though!).

 

Cheers, Chris

 

I guess that's thanks and ……………...……..

 

not wishing to sound ungrateful but no thanks - IT doesn't do it for me - BUT yes I'll have the file please (I'll PM my email) in case I have (as with DCC) an epiphany

 

I do now have a surfeit of small points and small and large Y's - look out on ebay or PM me 

 

Thanks again :rolleyes:

 

PS I should also thanks say to all who have asked - "Shrimp" (the dog) is doing well still 2 weeks to go but off all meds and allowed to roam the kitchen under supervision eff today

 

Julian

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52 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

I guess that's thanks and ……………...……..

 

not wishing to sound ungrateful but no thanks - IT doesn't do it for me - BUT yes I'll have the file please (I'll PM my email) in case I have (as with DCC) an epiphany

 

I do now have a surfeit of small points and small and large Y's - look out on ebay or PM me 

 

Thanks again :rolleyes:

 

PS I should also thanks say to all who have asked - "Shrimp" (the dog) is doing well still 2 weeks to go but off all meds and allowed to roam the kitchen under supervision eff today

 

Julian

 

I decided to jump in (if only to prove my ageing mind isn't too closed) - now done it and got it open - I’ll play more tomorrow looks VG for working out where the bits go!

Should take out some of the physical trial and error although not too much I hope – I am a bit of a luddite!

 

Julian 

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  • halsey changed the title to Revising an old layout - track plan done DCC wiring next
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23 hours ago, Chimer said:

 

The curved points are the left-hand leading to the turntable and the right-hand connected to it; two right-hands on the goods headshunt; and the left-hand in the carriage sidings.  The longs are the six in the throat on the right (all orientated north-south) and the two forming the main-line crossover in the other throat by the station building.  The medium (which could be long or short without much affecting the price of fish) is the one towards the left-hand end of platform 1.  All the others are short, some of which could happily be medium, if you've got any mediums spare.

 

If you wanted to embark on the learning curve (first base isn't that difficult) and get hold of XTrackCad

(http://www.xtrkcad.org/Wikka/HomePage), I could send you the file - you could then see a lot of detailed info and even print out the track plan full size (uses a lot of ink and paper though!).

 

Cheers, Chris

 

WOW that programme is brilliant, glad I played (thanks for the file) - I wouldn't trust myself to design with it but seeing where stuff goes from your design has made life a lot easier and also helped get together the shopping list of new bits needed - all now ordered with my "go to" guys at "Track-Shack".

 

I've had a day putting LOTS of stuff on eBay and have put up the first 2 sections of the new backscene which are MUCH better...………….  

 

Sent 3 non DCC locos to AGR to hard wire decoders!!

 

Pretty committed now - feels good...…………….:rolleyes: 

 

To maintain domestic harmony also bought SWMBO a new elec start lawnmower - VG end of season deal!

 

I need a drink now - I thought retirement was supposed to be restful...…………………….

 

J

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