"Hawkesbury" - the engine shed area is no more.....

[Ron Ron Ron]

Halsey, with due respect to the other contributors, I think you are getting some misleading information on this thread, regards the wiring, DCC v DC.

 

To wire the layout for DC, with a number of section switches, but also making the electrical supply more robust and reliable, usually means a lot more wire.

You can provide that “robustness” and reliability to this DCC powered layout (droppers to all sections of track etc,), with a simple wiring arrangement; even with a means to electrically divide the layout for fault finding.

Some people do seem to go about it in a convoluted manner, possibly taking years of wiring for DC into their thinking.
 

For your particular layout plan and the “geography” of the layout, the amount of saving will not be massive, but it will be much simpler.
For other layouts, the saving can be considerable.

However, if you opt for DCC control of the turnouts, using a mimic, switching panel or lever frame, there is the potential for very simple wiring.

Note: DCC control of the turnouts (and signals) can either be separate and independent of the DCC control of the trains, or integrated and part of the same DCC system.

Even if you go for DC control of the trains, a separate and simple DCC set up just for the turnouts (and signals), will save a lot of wiring, even if it costs more than a series of cheap switches and lots of wire.

 

Wiring the turnout frogs is the same for both. The only difference is you might get away with relying only on blade contact with DC.....some, most or all of the time. There’s only one way to make sure and that’s to wire the frogs properly.

 

Personally, I would regard the isolated section switching of DC, as a set of kludges, or workarounds.......an attempt to overcome the inherent deficiencies and problems of using DC to control model trains.
In other words, starting from the here and now, you wouldn’t go about it like that, i.e. time, progress and the benefit of hindsight.

 

 

Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

26 minutes ago, halsey said:

....Is it possible to solder the fishplate joint successfully rather than bridge it with wire?? …………...……..

 

I wouldn’t advise soldering rail joiners, except in certain limited circumstances.

If you did solder most of them, there would be no allowance for expansion and contraction of the metal rails as room temperatures fluctuate, both over the seasons and daily central heating cycles. That could lead to problems with buckled or dislodged track.

 

The easiest way to connect droppers to each length of track, for both DC and DCC, is to do it before final laying.

I solder to the underside of the rails, by removing some of the plastic webbing, pre- tinning and being careful not to melt the adjacent sleepers. The wires can either be fed through holes in the baseboard, or routed along the surface, to be hidden and disguised later on.

 

I saw a tip somewhere online, where a chap had found an old metal part or fitting, that could be used as a ready made heat screen, which could be placed between the sleepers and allowed him to solder to the track without the risk of melting the sleepers with his soldering iron. I couldn’t find anything to hand that would do the same job, but I’nm sure it would be fairly straightforward to conjure something up.

[chuffinghell]

56 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I wouldn’t advise soldering rail joiners, except in certain limited circumstances.

If you did solder most of them, there would be no allowance for expansion and contraction of the metal rails as room temperatures fluctuate, both over the seasons and daily central heating cycles. That could lead to problems with buckled or dislodged track.

 

I was advised against doing this also, not due to expansion (although Ron is correct) but paint from weathering and glue from ballasting can find its way between the rail and the fishplate in effect isolating the join........this is true for both DC and DCC

 

This is also the reason I have soldered droppers to every individual piece of track so as not to rely on the fishplates, I'm in no way saying you must do this, I did this for my own piece of mind and a 'belt & braces' approach

 

As far as central heating, I've just turned the rad-stat down to minimum and if I get cold I put on a jumper, better than than wobbly rails 

 

56 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The easiest way to connect droppers to each length of track, for both DC and DCC, is to do it before final laying.

I solder to the underside of the rails, by removing some of the plastic webbing, pre- tinning and being careful not to melt the adjacent sleepers. The wires can either be fed through holes in the baseboard, or routed along the surface, to be hidden and disguised later on.

 

Absolutely! this is again something I was advised to do and although I'd never soldered before after doing a few it gets easier (and quicker)

 

I had trouble with melting sleepers at first because it took what seemed like a long time for the solder to melt/flow and during this time the heat transferred to the plastic sleepers melting them

 

But then I found that if I cleaned the rails with a fine file or sanding stick (Cleanliness is key) followed by the use of a flux pen* on the rail first the pre-tinning attached to the rail quicker and thus not having enough time for the heat to extend to the plastic sleepers

 

*even though I thought solder with flux already in it was good enough but using the flux pen helps enormously

 

56 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I saw a tip somewhere online, where a chap had found an old metal part or fitting, that could be used as a ready made heat screen, which could be placed between the sleepers and allowed him to solder to the track without the risk of melting the sleepers with his soldering iron. I couldn’t find anything to hand that would do the same job, but I’nm sure it would be fairly straightforward to conjure something up.

 

I saw something similar (also online) a guy used bulldog clips on the rails to dissipate the heat, no idea if it works though

 

Disclaimer:

I'm no expert, I'm a beginner/novice who has benefited from the help, guidance and support from the guys on this site especially @Harlequin who helped me with the layout plan.

 

Some of what I've said could be incorrect........or at least better explained by someone with experience and who knows the proper terms 

 

Chris

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by chuffinghell

[Chimer]

58 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Wiring the turnout frogs is the same for both. The only difference is you might get away with relying only on blade contact with DC.....some, most or all of the time. There’s only one way to make sure and that’s to wire the frogs properly.

 

 

 

OP is using insulfrog points, so let's not complicate matters further with talk of frog switching ….. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

7 minutes ago, Chimer said:

 

OP is using insulfrog points, so let's not complicate matters further with talk of frog switching ….. 

 

Thanks Chimer.

I haven’t read far enough back along this thread to have spotted that.

Another can of worms, depending on one’s own viewpoint I suppose.

 

Cheers

Ron

[chuffinghell]

1 minute ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Thanks Chimer.

I haven’t read far enough back along this thread to have spotted that.

Another can of worms, depending on one’s own viewpoint I suppose.

 

Cheers

Ron

 

Agreed, it took me having a break from the hobby for thirty years to understand it.........I still think electrickery involves some kind of witchcraft  though 

[halsey]

Just to show what's happening on the ground I'm very pleased with this

 

ID backscenes are challenging esp in self adhesive form and you are working solo BUT I think well worth it...…………..

 

IF anyone is in a club and would like (for the cost of postage alone) the as new bits I have left (3'6" of one and 7'6" of another not matching but same series and could probably be tweaked to work around a corner)  I would be very happy to pass these on...…………………………. 

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

[halsey]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

I didn't say it was wrong to ask for advice.

 

I meant that if you had planned more thoroughly and taken more advice before you actually built or bought anything you could have done things differently. Specifically, you could have built the baseboards differently so that access under and reach over was easier.

 

Anyway, what's done is done. All the best.

 

 

I went through all the issues of how to best build baseboards and max reach I can cope with with my last layout so in this instance I had prior knowledge based on experience hence on this thread this wasn't revisited - eg I didn't want hinged boards, I didn't want to move anything, I did want to be able to quite literally sit on the boards and frames during construction etc etc 

 

NO intention to offend if indeed I have ……………………...

 

Very happy with progress and results so far and "track shack" have just delivered all the remaing bits I need for now less than 24hrs after ordering pretty good.

 

Next is approximate tracking setting out so I do need to understand isolators - it looks like I've got some reading of recent posts to get on with - thanks for all contributions.

[halsey]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Halsey, with due respect to the other contributors, I think you are getting some misleading information on this thread, regards the wiring, DCC v DC.

 

To wire the layout for DC, with a number of section switches, but also making the electrical supply more robust and reliable, usually means a lot more wire.

You can provide that “robustness” and reliability to this DCC powered layout (droppers to all sections of track etc,), with a simple wiring arrangement; even with a means to electrically divide the layout for fault finding.

Some people do seem to go about it in a convoluted manner, possibly taking years of wiring for DC into their thinking.
 

For your particular layout plan and the “geography” of the layout, the amount of saving will not be massive, but it will be much simpler.
For other layouts, the saving can be considerable.

However, if you opt for DCC control of the turnouts, using a mimic, switching panel or lever frame, there is the potential for very simple wiring.

Note: DCC control of the turnouts (and signals) can either be separate and independent of the DCC control of the trains, or integrated and part of the same DCC system.

Even if you go for DC control of the trains, a separate and simple DCC set up just for the turnouts (and signals), will save a lot of wiring, even if it costs more than a series of cheap switches and lots of wire.

 

Wiring the turnout frogs is the same for both. The only difference is you might get away with relying only on blade contact with DC.....some, most or all of the time. There’s only one way to make sure and that’s to wire the frogs properly.

 

Personally, I would regard the isolated section switching of DC, as a set of kludges, or workarounds.......an attempt to overcome the inherent deficiencies and problems of using DC to control model trains.
In other words, starting from the here and now, you wouldn’t go about it like that, i.e. time, progress and the benefit of hindsight.

 

 

Ron

 

I get the principles and some of the detail - any chance of a wiring/isolation diagram??? this could be no more than a sketch based on a photo of the layout plan if you aren't into IT but it would be good to be able visualise some of this 

 

Motorising points is a decision yet to be made but I expect even if I do this it will be DC based as I have all the kit and its what I did before so I do know what's involved.

 

Thanks all...………..

[chuffinghell]

I do like the use of kitchen carcasses used to support the baseboards, it looks really neat and tidy.....not to mention the extra storage gained.......and if doors are fitted stuff can be stored neatly out of sight

 

Unfortunatly I had a dirty great radiator on one wall followed by an alcove and a chimney breast on the adjacent wall  otherwise I'd have loved to do the same

 

Chris

[Ron Ron Ron]

Can’t help with a diagram at the moment. I’m on my travels “up north” and relying on an iPhone to access the forum.

[halsey]

1 minute ago, chuffinghell said:

I do like the use of kitchen carcasses used to support the baseboards, it looks really neat and tidy.....not to mention the extra storage gained.......and if doors are fitted stuff can be stored neatly out of sight

 

Unfortunatly I had a dirty great radiator on one wall followed by an alcove and a chimney breast on the adjacent wall  otherwise I'd have loved to do the same

 

Chris

 

Its an expensive but very robust solution so long as you buy factory built carcasses (Howdens in this case) - doors double the cost so probably wont happen.

 

[halsey]

1 minute ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Can’t help with a diagram at the moment. I’m on my travels “up north” and relying on an iPhone to access the forum.

 

No problem enjoy your travels …………...

[Chimer]

The simplest wiring option … hopefully you can relate this to the plan.  Where there are fans of sidings, I've only shown one.

 

 

I have shown 4 coloured sections, for fault-finding purposes only.  In normal operation they would all be switched on permanently.  Feeds shown by the arrows.  IRJs in both rails at the gaps between the colours.  Electricity will go where the points take it, so any loco will move if selected, if the points between it and any feed are in its favour.  But DCC features (noises, lights etc) will not function when the points are not.  Caveat - not sure how your turntable routes electricity, you may need more feeds in the loco sidings section beyond the turntable.

 

Additional feeds wherever you like to put them simply reduce the risk that connectivity will fail at some point in the future.  And feeds to any sidings will make the DCC features for locos parked there function regardless of the point settings.

 

I hope this helps.  I feel despondency and desperation creeping in ……..

 

Edit to say I think a feed on the platform 3 track, anywhere between the crossovers, is also necessary.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Chimer

[halsey]

22 minutes ago, Chimer said:

The simplest wiring option … hopefully you can relate this to the plan.  Where there are fans of sidings, I've only shown one.

 

 

I have shown 4 coloured sections, for fault-finding purposes only.  In normal operation they would all be switched on permanently.  Feeds shown by the arrows.  IRJs in both rails at the gaps between the colours.  Electricity will go where the points take it, so any loco will move if selected, if the points between it and any feed are in its favour.  But DCC features (noises, lights etc) will not function when the points are not.  Caveat - not sure how your turntable routes electricity, you may need more feeds in the loco sidings section beyond the turntable.

 

Additional feeds wherever you like to put them simply reduce the risk that connectivity will fail at some point in the future.  And feeds to any sidings will make the DCC features for locos parked there function regardless of the point settings.

 

I hope this helps.  I feel despondency and desperation creeping in ……..

 

Edit to say I think a feed on the platform 3 track, anywhere between the crossovers, is also necessary.

 

Hopefully the photos of progress show no despondency or desperation - frustration at worst but much more like simple confusion......

 

The plan really helps and is what I had thought was needed -  and yes I can relate to the plan readily - I assume the sections are only switched in their own right and not back to the controller?

 

I get the issue/risk re fishplates and will only use new ones but points comments still confuse me - do the blades need/advised special treatment before laying - particularly if this workbench related this is not an issue for me at all

 

I'm sure I must come across to some as not having a life other than the railway which is not healthy - at the moment this is true due to "Shrimps" issues and there are another 2 weeks of me/him being housebound still to come, also I have a hip replacement op scheduled for end Jan so was/am keen to do a lot of the really the physical stuff before then which is now pretty much done .

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by halsey

[Chimer]

For comparison, sectionalising for DC … how I'd do it anyway.

 

[Chimer]

1 hour ago, halsey said:

 

 

The plan really helps and is what I had thought was needed -  and yes I can relate to the plan readily - I assume the sections are only switched in their own right and not back to the controller?

 

I get the issue/risk re fishplates and will only use new ones but points comments still confuse me - do the blades need/advised special treatment before laying - particularly if this workbench related this is not an issue for me at all

 

 

 

Switches …. I have shown bus wires for each section, but you could take just multiple pairs of wires from the layout side of the switches if you preferred.

 

 

Conductivity across points relies on the moving blades making firm electrical contact with the fixed rails when pushed across.  So over time, dirt or slackness can result in loss of conductivity to (say) a siding even when the points are set towards it.  Which is why some/most/many people recommend feeds to every piece of track ……. for DC or DCC.  There is nothing you can do to the points before laying (as far as I am aware) to reduce this risk.

 

Edit …, some people's comments above about points only apply to electrofrogs, which you've said you aren't using.  But the conductivity issue applies to all types.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Chimer

[halsey]

6 minutes ago, Chimer said:

 

Switches …. I have shown bus wires for each section, but you could take just multiple pairs of wires from the layout side of the switches if you preferred.

 

 

Conductivity across points relies on the moving blades making firm electrical contact with the fixed rails when pushed across.  So over time, dirt or slackness can result in loss of conductivity to (say) a siding even when the points are set towards it.  Which is why some/most/many people recommend feeds to every piece of track ……. for DC or DCC.  There is nothing you can do to the points before laying (as far as I am aware) to reduce this risk.

 

Edit …, some people's comments above about points only apply to electrofrogs, which you've said you aren't using.  But the conductivity issue applies to all types.

 

OK I'll have to ask..............why a "bus" wire -  isn't it simply a feed from the controller power source??

 

I appreciate the electrofrog confusion but it still reads/seems worth working on insulfrog points esp if this can be done on the bench before final laying even if this is only soldering wire(s) on in the right place to by pass the blades and/or fishplates or both??

 

As all my turnouts are either RH or LH "points" any chance of a photo or a diagram of a typical point - I could play with my circuit tester but it would be good to get it from someone who knows 

 

 

[chuffinghell]

33 minutes ago, halsey said:

OK I'll have to ask..............why a "bus" wire -  isn't it simply a feed from the controller power source??

 

Yes it is basically a feed from the controller that you 'take-off' from instead of running loads of wire back to the controller

 

I did mine slightly differently:-

 

 

 

A & B on the left connected to the controller, A & B on the right goes to another set of terminal blocks

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by chuffinghell

[Zomboid]

"bus" is just electrical language for an electrical node. It's quite hard to put into non-electrical terminology now I try to do it...

 

An example of its use is in "busbar", which is literally a bar of metal, to which various connections to other things are made. You'll have one in the consumer unit in your house.

[halsey]

1 hour ago, chuffinghell said:

 

Yes it is basically a feed from the controller that you 'take-off' from instead of running loads of wire back to the controller

 

I did mine slightly differently:-

 

 

 

A & B on the left connected to the controller, A & B on the right goes to another set of terminal blocks

 

 

Just spent 15 mins going through your layout topic - I'm humbled and inspired - very impressive I would love to see a "complete" today shot if you could PM me as in flicking through your 45 pages I didn't find one.

Thanks 

[halsey]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

"bus" is just electrical language for an electrical node. It's quite hard to put into non-electrical terminology now I try to do it...

 

An example of its use is in "busbar", which is literally a bar of metal, to which various connections to other things are made. You'll have one in the consumer unit in your house.

 

I've got one on my boat as well - thanks for that I understand now...……………..

[Chimer]

51 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

OK I'll have to ask..............why a "bus" wire -  isn't it simply a feed from the controller power source??

 

I appreciate the electrofrog confusion but it still reads/seems worth working on insulfrog points esp if this can be done on the bench before final laying even if this is only soldering wire(s) on in the right place to by pass the blades and/or fishplates or both??

 

As all my turnouts are either RH or LH "points" any chance of a photo or a diagram of a typical point - I could play with my circuit tester but it would be good to get it from someone who knows 

 

 

 

1.  No idea why "bus" - it's just the term people use for a heavy gauge wire from which lighter wires (which are for a similarly obscure reason called "droppers") make connections to the rails.  Maybe because it's got a similar function to a busbar in heavy electrics?  Ooh, I see Zomboid agrees …...

 

2.  Well maybe - I'd personally rather use an extra dropper to the rail beyond the frog.  But then I've always trusted fishplates and point blades to do their jobs myself …...

 

3.  Get what exactly?  Do you mean you want a picture showing which bits of the point's rails you need to bond together?  I'll leave that to someone who's recommending it ….

[chuffinghell]

2 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

Just spent 15 mins going through your layout topic - I'm humbled and inspired - very impressive I would love to see a "complete" today shot if you could PM me as in flicking through your 45 pages I didn't find one.

Thanks 

 

Thank you

 

It's still very much a work in progress, so basically whats there is the progress to date 

 

Chris