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Revising an old layout - DCC wiring done - points and "final" track work next

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7 minutes ago, Chimer said:

 

1.  No idea why "bus" - it's just the term people use for a heavy gauge wire from which lighter wires (which are for a similarly obscure reason called "droppers") make connections to the rails.  Maybe because it's got a similar function to a busbar in heavy electrics?  Ooh, I see Zomboid agrees …...

 

2.  Well maybe - I'd personally rather use an extra dropper to the rail beyond the frog.  But then I've always trusted fishplates and point blades to do their jobs myself …...

 

3.  Get what exactly?  Do you mean you want a picture showing which bits of the point's rails you need to bond together?  I'll leave that to someone who's recommending it ….

 

1 - I now understand

2- As have I and as I had no problems (ever) with fishplates or points on the last layout (but it was all new) this is why the theme of todays discussion has been bothering me - but then David and you (from this team) pretty much designed the layout and the wiring 

3 - Yes but I completely understand your reluctance - as you know by now I subscribe to the "picture is worth a thousand words" philosophy (that's not Telly Savalas!)

Cheers

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10 minutes ago, Chimer said:

No idea why "bus"

 

There's an assertion in Wikipedia that the "bus" bit of "bus bar" has the same derivation as "bus" the vehicle, which is from the Latin "omnibus" meaning "for all" (being dative plural of "omnis" meaning "all").  The suggestion being that a bus bar carries the current for all the devices in a system.

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The term bus in this case, is derived from the digital technology aspect.

It reflects that it carries the digital data to be distributed and accessed across the layout.

 

For clarity, there are several types of digital bus than can be used on a DCC powered layout.

The one being talked about here is a Power Bus.

Power Buses can be in the form of a Track Bus or an Accessory Bus....or simply a Power Bus to serve both purposes.

 

Other buses include...

Cab or Throttle Bus  - for connecting handsets and other input devices (e.g. route controllers, panels etc,)

Control or Booster Bus  - connects the Command Station to external Boosters

Feedback Bus  - to connect feedback detectors and devices back to the Command Station.

 

 

Ron

 

Edited by Ron Ron Ron
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14 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The term bus in this case, is derived from the digital technology aspect.

 

The use of the term in IT is significantly predated by its use for a simple electrical bus/bus bar/power bus, so there's little doubt that the earlier use was adopted in to the digital world in terms like memory bus, PCI bus and even the Universal Serial Bus.

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.......and control bus, data bus, address bus etc.

 

A vehicle for transporting data or signals up and down the line, the data/signals getting on and off at various points along the route.

Just like........a Bus !

 

 

 

Ron

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Just thought I'd share my first track placements …………….

 

 

IMG_0276.JPG

IMG_0275.JPG

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On 28/11/2019 at 14:54, Chimer said:

 

Switches …. I have shown bus wires for each section, but you could take just multiple pairs of wires from the layout side of the switches if you preferred.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_11/1903366363_Halseyswitches.jpg.954306b7c0de8e261d706fdc15bedf98.jpg

 

Conductivity across points relies on the moving blades making firm electrical contact with the fixed rails when pushed across.  So over time, dirt or slackness can result in loss of conductivity to (say) a siding even when the points are set towards it.  Which is why some/most/many people recommend feeds to every piece of track ……. for DC or DCC.  There is nothing you can do to the points before laying (as far as I am aware) to reduce this risk.

 

Edit …, some people's comments above about points only apply to electrofrogs, which you've said you aren't using.  But the conductivity issue applies to all types.

 

what do people think about DCC point clips - I have bought a pack just to play

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Just thought I'd keep you guys updated...…………………..

 

 

 

I decided to use old lining/wallpaper and co-axial cable all of which was to hand to lay out the lines to aid cutting track to size then I am loose laying track with old co-axial cable and old fishplates - I will use new one time only fishplates when I finally lay it all out - first bits on the LH side worked out well.

 

 

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Hi,

 

I just thought I would invite comments on my first attempts to get a bit more (length) out of the sidings/headshunt/goods yard areas etc

 

I am thinking I will lay the home goods long and cut to suit any buildings much later (if at all) as the modelling develops

 

The canal wharf will not develop along the back wall as I had initially thought but at right angles to it with the (continuous) length of canal running from the central control well and disappearing into the under workshop shelf area 

 

The track shown in the TT/Headshunt areas is not fitted just lose laid to illustrate

 

The other T/T ring is the old position as per Chimers original plan

 

 

IMG_0284.JPG

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IMG_0286.JPG

Edited by halsey

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Doesn't seem like you've really changed anything meaningful, everything will still work pretty much the same as it would have done with the final iteration of the plan.

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I'm glad you're thinking about the loco sidings 'cos I didn't  :wacko: - I just stuck a turntable where I could most easily fit it in and took some roads off it.  Not at all prototypical - I was expecting lots of people who are more clued up than me on that sort of thing to make suggestions as to how to make it better, but it seemed to escape scrutiny almost completely.

 

I still hope you're going to hide the passing main lines, freight lie-by and the horribly tight associated curves from the usual viewing positions in the operating well ….... a depot wall with a trainspotter perched on top will do it.

 

You're absolutely right to leave a final design for the goods yard until you know how it looks and what you want to get out of it.  The important thing is to get the flow of the main lines and immediate access point to the yard reasonably smooth.  I never could quite understand how the canal was going to work visually, but in the new arrangement, I don't think you'll be able to have a siding running parallel and adjacent to the wharf, which is a shame.

 

The main thing is, you're making progress!  I'm not ...

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12 minutes ago, Chimer said:

I'm glad you're thinking about the loco sidings 'cos I didn't  https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_wacko.png - I just stuck a turntable where I could most easily fit it in and took some roads off it.  Not at all prototypical - I was expecting lots of people who are more clued up than me on that sort of thing to make suggestions as to how to make it better, but it seemed to escape scrutiny almost completely.

 

I still hope you're going to hide the passing main lines, freight lie-by and the horribly tight associated curves from the usual viewing positions in the operating well ….... a depot wall with a trainspotter perched on top will do it.

 

You're absolutely right to leave a final design for the goods yard until you know how it looks and what you want to get out of it.  The important thing is to get the flow of the main lines and immediate access point to the yard reasonably smooth.  I never could quite understand how the canal was going to work visually, but in the new arrangement, I don't think you'll be able to have a siding running parallel and adjacent to the wharf, which is a shame.

 

The main thing is, you're making progress!  I'm not ...

 

Don't worry about the scenic break its going to look something like this

 

 

 

 

 

IMG_0289.JPG

 

As far as the canal goes I could still run a wharf parallel to one of the "sidings" BUT it wouldn't satisfy me as to how, if it were a terminus or "basin", they turned the boats around so I will run at right angles to the siding ends and allow it to be a passing wharf...……..for through traffic which is perfectly "prototypical" :rolleyes:

 

All good - don't forget I've got all the time in the world to make progress as I'm house-bound cos of the dog!

 

Electrical thoughts next starting with the bridge connections over the weekend...…………..

 

.......................have a good one:drink_mini:

Edited by halsey
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On 06/12/2019 at 16:55, Chimer said:

I'm glad you're thinking about the loco sidings 'cos I didn't  https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_wacko.png - I just stuck a turntable where I could most easily fit it in and took some roads off it.  Not at all prototypical - I was expecting lots of people who are more clued up than me on that sort of thing to make suggestions as to how to make it better, but it seemed to escape scrutiny almost completely

I think there were bigger fish to fry so it didn't get dealt with. The loco area is a bit of a problem in as much as it's possible to run directly from a main line to the turntable without stopping, which I believe was not a permitted arrangement. An easy solution to that isn't immediately presenting itself though, and even then there would need to be lots more surgery done to the loco area to get it into shape as a believable steam shed - which I personally know absolutely nothing about so couldn't help with.

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13 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I think there were bigger fish to fry so it didn't get dealt with. The loco area is a bit of a problem in as much as it's possible to run directly from a main line to the turntable without stopping, which I believe was not a permitted arrangement. An easy solution to that isn't immediately presenting itself though, and even then there would need to be lots more surgery done to the loco area to get it into shape as a believable steam shed - which I personally know absolutely nothing about so couldn't help with.

 

IF anyone is going to comment - please do so reasonably quickly and with no major surgery please...………...:rolleyes:

Edited by halsey

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On 08/12/2019 at 11:02, Zomboid said:

I think there were bigger fish to fry so it didn't get dealt with. The loco area is a bit of a problem in as much as it's possible to run directly from a main line to the turntable without stopping, which I believe was not a permitted arrangement. An easy solution to that isn't immediately presenting itself though, and even then there would need to be lots more surgery done to the loco area to get it into shape as a believable steam shed - which I personally know absolutely nothing about so couldn't help with.

 

Um.  In my original design access to the shed area was via its own trailing point and kickback siding, but the current arrangements arose from combining a number of suggestions - design by committee is always a fraught process.  It would be possible to take the shed access off the track parallel to the platform 1 road, so access to the shed would be from platform 1, forward into the goods headshunt, back towards the goods yard and finally forward into the shed area.  That would leave the headshunt running more parallel to the main lines and outside the shed access.  I could draw that tomorrow if it would help …. not quite sure where the turntable would fit in, but it should be possible.

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2 minutes ago, Chimer said:

 

Um.  In my original design access to the shed area was via its own trailing point and kickback siding, but the current arrangements arose from combining a number of suggestions - design by committee is always a fraught process.  It would be possible to take the shed access off the track parallel to the platform 1 road, so access to the shed would be from platform 1, forward into the goods headshunt, back towards the goods yard and finally forward into the shed area.  That would leave the headshunt running more parallel to the main lines and outside the shed access.  I could draw that tomorrow if it would help …. not quite sure where the turntable would fit in, but it should be possible.

 

I was just about to do that section of wiring tomorrow - but I can do something else - I'm happy to see a drawing (if you have time) also to understand the reasoning behind making the change - prototypical correctness or improved operations (for me) 

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Just addressing Zomboid's point about the rules not allowing direct route from a running line to a turntable, probably actually from a running line to a shed area at all ….

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7 minutes ago, Chimer said:

Just addressing Zomboid's point about the rules not allowing direct route from a running line to a turntable, probably actually from a running line to a shed area at all ….

Er, I don't think it is accessed off a running line - it's accessed off a goods/platform loop... No?

 

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I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that as it's facing points all the way from the right-hand throat to the turntable (via a passenger platform road), it could well be a no-no.

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1 hour ago, Chimer said:

Just addressing Zomboid's point about the rules not allowing direct route from a running line to a turntable, probably actually from a running line to a shed area at all ….

 

I will be very interested to see an illustration of this - "a picture is worth a thousand words" so I can get my head around it - thanks

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On 28/11/2019 at 12:38, Chimer said:

The simplest wiring option … hopefully you can relate this to the plan.  Where there are fans of sidings, I've only shown one.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_11/1179473593_HalseyelectricsDCC.jpg.cbe1999f94fdd42ce3172eba22fc1e78.jpg

 

I have shown 4 coloured sections, for fault-finding purposes only.  In normal operation they would all be switched on permanently.  Feeds shown by the arrows.  IRJs in both rails at the gaps between the colours.  Electricity will go where the points take it, so any loco will move if selected, if the points between it and any feed are in its favour.  But DCC features (noises, lights etc) will not function when the points are not.  Caveat - not sure how your turntable routes electricity, you may need more feeds in the loco sidings section beyond the turntable.

 

Additional feeds wherever you like to put them simply reduce the risk that connectivity will fail at some point in the future.  And feeds to any sidings will make the DCC features for locos parked there function regardless of the point settings.

 

I hope this helps.  I feel despondency and desperation creeping in ……..

 

Edit to say I think a feed on the platform 3 track, anywhere between the crossovers, is also necessary.

 

I am now well into the wiring having decided to feed to all areas all sidings etc from a bus wire - but whilst I have laid out as above with insulated joiners I am confused - if I am feeding from the same bus wire to all these droppers in all 4 areas what is the purpose of the switched zones - or am I being thick ??

Edited by halsey

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31 minutes ago, halsey said:

I am now well into the wiring having decided to feed to all areas all sidings etc from a bus wire - but whilst I have laid out as above with insulated joiners I am confused - if I am feeding from the same bus wire to all these droppers in all 4 areas what is the purpose of the switched zones - or am I being thick ??

 

You are confused!  I cannot understand what is going on at all.  You say you are using insulfrog points - so the need for insulated joiners on the frogs has gone.  I note you are talking about "4 sections" and somebody somewhere above said that sections was a good idea for fault finding.  BUT if you want sections you must have separate bus wires (4?) so that you can switch out sections to see which is at fault - shorted mainly.  The sections lead back to switches which split the output from you DCC source.  Many people do this (me included) and there are automatic ways of sensing a short and cutting the section feed.  Nobody seems to have told you about that though?

 

Leaving a short for a long time can easily damage your DCC power equipmwnt.  It has a cut-off but it shouldn't be left in that state.

Edited by imt
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The switched zones will help you with fault finding. If (when) you get a short you can turn bits of the layout off to eliminate the sections where it isn't. You could subsequently upgrade the switched zones to power districts with more DCC equipment, so that a short will only shut down the affected sections when it happens rather than the whole lot if you so wished (I probably wouldn't bother for a layout this size, but some might).

 

It's really hard to explain this in just text...

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22 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

I am now well into the wiring having decided to feed to all areas all sidings etc from a bus wire - but whilst I have laid out as above with insulated joiners I am confused - if I am feeding from the same bus wire to all these droppers in all 4 areas what is the purpose of the switched zones - or am I being thick ??

 

It's just to make things easier if you get a mystery short circuit somewhere.  By switching out each section in turn you can identify which section is giving the fault, which should make it easier to find, as you don't have to look everywhere.  You don't have to do it, it's just one more thing considered "best practice" by most of the RMweb community.

 

And while I'm on, here's version 6 with the rearranged loco shed access - and also with the throats jiggled to give wider platforms, as they looked a bit narrower than I liked in earlier photos.  You may not want to do this now, in which case you would just need to play around with the left hand throat a bit.  The idea for the shed is that coal / water / ash / fuel are dealt with on the arrival track and/or right at the bottom on the headshunt, before the loco is stabled via the turntable.  There isn't room to do it properly, with ashpits and coaling towers etc, but this might be a smidge closer to reality.  You could leave this bit to last, and start a new thread challenging someone to improve this area …… obviously, there are quite a few options for the tracks coming off the turntable, including whether or not you want an actual shed building covering one or more tracks.

 

I'll send you the file.  

 

1326270096_h6jpg.jpg.b4edd8fae302375c1d6751da4343ba68.jpg 

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12 minutes ago, imt said:

 

You are confused!  I cannot understand what is going on at all.  You say you are using insulfrog points - so the need for insulated joiners on the frogs has gone.  I note you are talking about "4 sections" and somebody somewhere above said that sections was a good idea for fault finding.  BUT if you want sections you must have separate bus wires (4?) so that you can switch out sections to see which is at fault - shorted mainly.  The sections lead back to switches which split the output from you DCC source.  Many people do this (me included) and there are automatic ways of sensing a short and cutting the section feed.  Nobody seems to have told you about that though?

 

Leaving a short for a long time can easily damage your DCC power equipmwnt.  It has a cut-off but it shouldn't be left in that state.

 

The wiring diagram which (I think) Julian is following does indeed show 4 buses ….. (on page 7 somewhere)

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