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Lambstead - Adapting Hampton Malstead for Balders45


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Hi there,

Throwing you all a curved ball, and realising  that Balders may have somewhere precluded this, and I have missed it, but how about making more of the space by modelling a secondary town/outer London type location?

This could have several benefits:-

The cramped site could be quite a generous in town site.

The "gasworks" site could be a goods shed, and could realistically be worked more frequently than a gasworks. Also more vans could be worked which gets round the problem of unloading open wagons. I would bring in coal wagons loaded, run round them and run them back out on the notion that the coal yard was off scene on the line into the terminus only capable of shunting by a train working out from the terminus?

The train frequency could be increased a tad.  

Blocking the scenic exit would be easier with town buildings.

 

Cheers

Paul

 

 

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17 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi there,

Throwing you all a curved ball, and realising  that Balders may have somewhere precluded this, and I have missed it, but how about making more of the space by modelling a secondary town/outer London type location?

This could have several benefits:-

The cramped site could be quite a generous in town site.

The "gasworks" site could be a goods shed, and could realistically be worked more frequently than a gasworks. Also more vans could be worked which gets round the problem of unloading open wagons. I would bring in coal wagons loaded, run round them and run them back out on the notion that the coal yard was off scene on the line into the terminus only capable of shunting by a train working out from the terminus?

The train frequency could be increased a tad.  

Blocking the scenic exit would be easier with town buildings.

 

Cheers

Paul

 

 

Sounds an interesting option, thanks Paul

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It is difficult to adapt a terminus with fiddle yard added end on to a right angled site.  I designed the "Hockey Stick" traverser for this situation but you don't have enough length for this. you really need 22" plus 2" per road length on the end of the station and you barely have 22"

The Hockey stick moves 20mm approx lengthways per road instead of the 50mm sideways of the normal traverser.  Its parked position is typically 2ft further in than the running position.  I will do a doodle

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Hi Balders45   The curve to the FY is about 2ft radius, that takes it to the far side of the fiddle board.  Using Peco points that means you can't really work in more than 2  X 3 coach plus loco  roads if you use GWR 63ft B set coaches with a 57ft strengthening vehicle.    I nearly got 2 X 3 coach roads but the other 2 would be very short and even then it needed a 2ft Radius Y point.  You can't link roads nearest operating well with the next as the track is already curving towards the operating well at that point and it would knock a coach off the siding length

Operation would be loco sidings the two red top ones and new loco comes on just prior to departure so as not to block points and loco changes every time.

For a Hockey stick it needs an extra 2" per road on length as the furthest road would be the nearest on the stick.  As I said it looks like a cassette yard is the pragmatic solution.

Bottom line I wasn't really getting anywhere so here is my abandoned doodle..  Best of luck

 

Edit

 

Reject 2 is getting there, the headshunt lets the incoming loco out by letting a second loco haul the stock off from siding 1 or 4 and put it  in the other long siding. Kick back and 2+3 store wagons and spare coaches and using the nearest headshunt a 5 coach or 15 wagon goods passenger can be assembled. Stuck with tank locos, possibly an Oxford Dean with short 2500 gallon tender  though. 2 loco sidings should hold 3 X panniers or 45XX  each or 2 X Deans

 

Edit

 

I am starting to like reject 2,   Fiddle yard operator would have an interesting time. not so sure about the station as the Gas works siding  is an absolute swine to shunt.   It would shift quite a bit of coal so a couple of blokes with pinch bars is a bit unlikely.  Maybe a less busy industry?  

 

 

 

Screenshot (85)Reject.png

 

 

 

Screenshot (85)Reject2.png

Edited by DavidCBroad
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8 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Hi Balders45   The curve to the FY is about 2ft radius, that takes it to the far side of the fiddle board.  Using Peco points that means you can't really work in more than 2  X 3 coach plus loco  roads if you use GWR 63ft B set coaches with a 57ft strengthening vehicle.    I nearly got 2 X 3 coach roads but the other 2 would be very short and even then it needed a 2ft Radius Y point.  You can't link roads nearest operating well with the next as the track is already curving towards the operating well at that point and it would knock a coach off the siding length

Operation would be loco sidings the two red top ones and new loco comes on just prior to departure so as not to block points and loco changes every time.

For a Hockey stick it needs an extra 2" per road on length as the furthest road would be the nearest on the stick.  As I said it looks like a cassette yard is the pragmatic solution.

Bottom line I wasn't really getting anywhere so here is my abandoned doodle..  Best of luck

 

Edit

 

Reject 2 is getting there, the headshunt lets the incoming loco out by letting a second loco haul the stock off from siding 1 or 4 and put it  in the other long siding. Kick back and 2+3 store wagons and spare coaches and using the nearest headshunt a 5 coach or 15 wagon goods passenger can be assembled. Stuck with tank locos, possibly an Oxford Dean with short 2500 gallon tender  though. 2 loco sidings should hold 3 X panniers or 45XX  each or 2 X Deans

 

Edit

 

I am starting to like reject 2,   Fiddle yard operator would have an interesting time. not so sure about the station as the Gas works siding  is an absolute swine to shunt.   It would shift quite a bit of coal so a couple of blokes with pinch bars is a bit unlikely.  Maybe a less busy industry?  

 

 

 

Screenshot (85)Reject.png

 

 

 

Screenshot (85)Reject2.png

Thanks for your input David, the FY does look interesting to operate, plenty of storage and almost a layout in itself!!!! Plenty of great ideas to mull over. Will take your thoughts on the industry, may be a brewery?? well, I do like beer:D

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Hi Martin and everyone,

 

There have been lots of ideas put forward about possible industries and filling up the corner but because you said you wanted a scenic run into the station I've followed up on @clachnaharry's suggestion of doing something like Lambourn.

 

So it's an upland country station with no industry near the station throat because that would obscure the line running in. I have also resisted the urge to fill up the top right corner with any trackwork. In fact I've removed one of the kickback sidings to keep it clean.

In compensation you now have Lambourn's goods loop to make operation more interesting.

 

The other kickback siding in the goods yard is retained but now serves a large cattle dock and possibly an end-loading ramp.

 

It's not Hampton Malstead any more so I've tentatively called it "Lambstead".

1288856789_LambsteadScenic6.png.8b52149accdad03227331b37ce2aaa50.png

 

  • Don't worry about the green areas too much - they really just signify non-railway scenery and are for you to do whatever you want with.
  • I've expanded to the full 3010mm width available. This is to enable revised fiddle yards to be connected. See below.
  • I found that there was no point shortening the platform run round much because doing so also shortened the goods yard and the Lambourn style goods loop. So it's length hasn't changed much and it's still technically possible to run round 4 coaches - ghost images of 4 65ft coaches are shown. It just means that you can be more relaxed about where 3-coach passenger trains stop and they look good standing against the longer platform face.
  • The platform face doesn't have to be that long, of course, and if it were shortened you could remove the bay and have a short kickback carriage siding like Lambourn.
  • There's only one large radius turnout in use now, in the station throat to ease traffic into the curve. Orange turnouts are mediums, Green are curved and large Ys (my colour convention isn't properly worked out!).
  • The loco release headhunt is 250mm long.
  • Goods shunting only has to clear the double slip and that leaves a length of over 3 feet for use as headshunt so I think most of the time the loco wouldn't disappear into the fiddle yard while shunting.
  • I haven't shown any paraphernalia, such as yard crane, loading gauge, PW huts, etc, etc... You'd need to think about where they go before you start the scenery.
  • Hampton Malstead used a proscenium arch to hide the ends of the sidings on the left and I've done the same here to suggest the yard is bigger than we can see. A neatly boxed and lit display looks good in domestic setting (Mrs Balders might be impressed...?) but you could just have a simple backscene and terminate the sidings with buffers if you want.

Fiddle yard

I've come up with two alternative fiddle yard designs becasue you said that you'd prefer not to handle locos in the FY, David was hinting at the ability to shunt in the FY without locos appearing on scene and I was worried about locos lifts being difficult to use on the pointwork of the previous FY design.

105329949_LambsteadFY6.png.96f2db8f19d3cb7d2641723f4af84337.png

 

  • They both use traditional traversers with about 250mm travel out from the wall (using full extension drawer runners).
  • They both have more consistent capacity than the previous FY design, both allow shunting entirely within the yard and both require less handling of stock than before.
  • Roads are 50mm apart, on the basis that less manual handling is needed.
  • Note: Road 0 can't be connected to the track leading to the scenic area - it's just extra storage and/or to help with loco movements.
  • The top traverser design can contain whole trains including locos. To run round or turn a loco would need a loco lift and there are two straight headshunts to make rerailing from the loco lift easier.
  • The bottom traverser design can contain trains excluding their locos. Spurs at the far end allow the loco to run off the traverser and from there they can run round without being handled at all. There are headshunts at the scenic end where locos can stand before backing onto a train.
  • So the bottom design wouldn't require any stock handling and could be fully automated - but it would be quite intricate to operate!

 

Edited by Harlequin
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5 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Hi Martin and everyone,

 

There have been lots of ideas put forward about possible industries and filling up the corner but because you said you wanted a scenic run into the station I've followed up on @clachnaharry's suggestion of doing something like Lambourn.

 

So it's an upland country station with no industry near the station throat because that would obscure the line running in. I have also resisted the urge to fill up the top right corner with any trackwork. In fact I've removed one of the kickback sidings to keep it clean.

In compensation you now have Lambourn's goods loop to make operation more interesting.

 

The other kickback siding in the goods yard is retained but now serves a large cattle dock and possibly an end-loading ramp.

 

It's not Hampton Malstead any more so I've tentatively called it "Lambstead".

1288856789_LambsteadScenic6.png.8b52149accdad03227331b37ce2aaa50.png

 

  • Don't worry about the green areas too much - they really just signify non-railway scenery and are for you to do whatever you want with.
  • I've expanded to the full 3010mm width available. This is to enable revised fiddle yards to be connected. See below.
  • I found that there was no point shortening the platform run round much because doing so also shortened the goods yard and the Lambourn style goods loop. So it's length hasn't changed much and it's still technically possible to run round 4 coaches - ghost images of 4 65ft coaches are shown. It just means that you can be more relaxed about where 3-coach passenger trains stop and they look good standing against the longer platform face.
  • The platform face doesn't have to be that long, of course, and if it were shortened you could remove the bay and have a short kickback carriage siding like Lambourn.
  • There's only one large radius turnout in use now, in the station throat to ease traffic into the curve. Orange turnouts are mediums, Green are curved and large Ys (my colour convention isn't properly worked out!).
  • The loco release headhunt is 250mm long.
  • Goods shunting only has to clear the double slip and that leaves a length of over 3 feet for use as headshunt so I think most of the time the loco wouldn't disappear into the fiddle yard while shunting.
  • I haven't shown any paraphernalia, such as yard crane, loading gauge, PW huts, etc, etc... You'd need to think about where they go before you start the scenery.
  • Hampton Malstead used a proscenium arch to hide the ends of the sidings on the left and I've done the same here to suggest the yard is bigger than we can see. A neatly boxed and lit display looks good in domestic setting (Mrs Balders might be impressed...?) but you could just have a simple backscene and terminate the sidings with buffers if you want.

Fiddle yard

I've come up with two alternative fiddle yard designs becasue you said that you'd prefer not to handle locos in the FY, David was hinting at the ability to shunt in the FY without locos appearing on scene and I was worried about locos lifts being difficult to use on the pointwork of the previous FY design.

105329949_LambsteadFY6.png.96f2db8f19d3cb7d2641723f4af84337.png

 

  • They both use traditional traversers with about 250mm travel out from the wall (using full extension drawer runners).
  • They both have more consistent capacity than the previous FY design, both allow shunting entirely within the yard and both require less handling of stock than before.
  • Roads are 50mm apart, on the basis that less manual handling is needed.
  • Note: Road 0 can't be connected to the track leading to the scenic area - it's just extra storage and/or to help with loco movements.
  • The top traverser design can contain whole trains including locos. To run round or turn a loco would need a loco lift and there are two straight headshunts to make rerailing from the loco lift easier.
  • The bottom traverser design can contain trains excluding their locos. Spurs at the far end allow the loco to run off the traverser and from there they can run round without being handled at all. There are headshunts at the scenic end where locos can stand before backing onto a train.
  • So the bottom design wouldn't require any stock handling and could be fully automated - but it would be quite intricate to operate!

 

Been hoping  Mr Harlequin could square the circle, he's absolutely  nailed it too. The guy is a genius. I can't imagine any alterations to that design.  It's perfect, can't wait to build it!!!!!

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9 hours ago, Harlequin said:

In compensation you now have Lambourn's goods loop to make operation more interesting.

 

For some time now, in the back of my mind (where it would likely remain, as actually building it seems to be unlikely) I have been pondering the idea of a layout designed to be operated by kids at shows.

 

I think Lambstead succeeds at that goal.  Not only is a great home layout offering much potential, it equally offers much potential as a show layout.

 

Putting the fiddle yard to the front of the layout means a kid could stand in one place and just turn their head to take everything in, at the same time making it easy for an adult to be on the front watching over / helping / encouraging.

 

The goods loop means you could wire it up so that with one switch you isolate the controls so you can have an "enforced" 2 separate operating layouts with swapping between them only when permitted.

 

You could give a more adventurous kid a switching job to do in the goods yard while other kids run passenger trains to and from the fiddle yard at the same time using either dmu's or autocoaches. 

 

You could even throw in the occasional passenger train that requires the engine to swap ends to the kids need to cooperate (under close supervision).  Or perhaps a mixed train to deliver something to a little peckett switch engine.

 

Add in an assortment of "cute" panniers and other small engines for the kids to choose from and this could be a popular way to introduce them to the hobby.

 

 

 

 

Edited by mdvle
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10 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 The other kickback siding in the goods yard is retained but now serves a large cattle dock and possibly an end-loading ramp.

 

I think it's been said before in this thread, but imo the end dock would work better on the bay, which would then have some purpose.

 

Have you tried putting a medium Y point between the two sidings in the yard and omitting the short 1° curve?  I think that would still give the required separation and would be more compact and easier to lay neatly.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

I think it's been said before in this thread, but imo the end dock would work better on the bay, which would then have some purpose.

 

Have you tried putting a medium Y point between the two sidings in the yard and omitting the short 1° curve?  I think that would still give the required separation and would be more compact and easier to lay neatly.

 

 

Tbh i have no idea as to what difference  that could and would make, it looks perfect as it is, that said i'm up for tweak here and there if it improves the overall operation.

As for the bay as it is, I see it as (clichéd I'm sure) parcels and news paper traffic. I feel with 4 coach trains the station is a step up or two from a very rural BLT and therfore require a slight busier timetable, increase in traffic  and with that a dedicated parcel bay. Might be a load of tosh but it kind of sits well with me!!

Interesed to hear feed back on the inclusion of the y point and any other possible tweaks, 

Thanks

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8 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

I think it's been said before in this thread, but imo the end dock would work better on the bay, which would then have some purpose.

It was a different thread but, yes, the end-loading dock is a bit awkward in it's current position. I put it there because Lambourn's end-loading dock seems to at the end of it's very long cattle pens siding and because it seems to me they are almost always found in the goods yard, not near the passnger areas.

 

It's is also a bit unresolved at the moment and would need to be designed properly. You could give road access to the dock, the pens and the yard in general from the south if that made it work better. There is a road passing by after all!

 

 

8 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Have you tried putting a medium Y point between the two sidings in the yard and omitting the short 1° curve?  I think that would still give the required separation and would be more compact and easier to lay neatly.

 

 

Good idea:

867374634_Lambsteadgoodstweak6.png.5c325c25c6b9704802baa622e711e12c.png

The red parts show the change with the original underneath: A large Y feeding into a medium left without the short curving section of plain track. It puts a slight wiggle in the line to the back siding but makes the curves in the sidings much more definite and the cattle pens kickback is now dead straight.

I'm not sure which I prefer.

 

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14 hours ago, Balders45 said:

Been hoping  Mr Harlequin could square the circle, he's absolutely  nailed it too. The guy is a genius. I can't imagine any alterations to that design.  It's perfect, can't wait to build it!!!!!

 

Ooph! Thanks Martin!

 

As you can see there are always improvement to be made! :wink_mini:

 

Obviously you can call the station whatever you like but I wonder if my idea for the name should have been "Lamstead" rather than "Lambstead"?

 

BTW: My leanings are always towards the GWR and obviously using Lambourn as inspiration heads in that direction so you might want to check the details of how other companies did things if you're going to set it somewhere else.

 

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22 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

It was a different thread but, yes, the end-loading dock is a bit awkward in it's current position. I put it there because Lambourn's end-loading dock seems to at the end of it's very long cattle pens siding and because it seems to me they are almost always found in the goods yard, not near the passnger areas.

 

It's is also a bit unresolved at the moment and would need to be designed properly. You could give road access to the dock, the pens and the yard in general from the south if that made it work better. There is a road passing by after all!

 

 

Good idea:

867374634_Lambsteadgoodstweak6.png.5c325c25c6b9704802baa622e711e12c.png

The red parts show the change with the original underneath: A large Y feeding into a medium left without the short curving section of plain track. It puts a slight wiggle in the line to the back siding but makes the curves in the sidings much more definite and the cattle pens kickback is now dead straight.

I'm not sure which I 

Think I prefer the original,  with the tracks spaced a bit further apart 

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14 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

Ooph! Thanks Martin!

 

As you can see there are always improvement to be made! :wink_mini:

 

Obviously you can call the station whatever you like but I wonder if my idea for the name should have been "Lamstead" rather than "Lambstead"?

 

BTW: My leanings are always towards the GWR and obviously using Lambourn as inspiration heads in that direction so you might want to check the details of how other companies did things if you're going to set it somewhere else.

 

Not sure where this place exists, somewhere the LMS and GWR would cross over. Not keen on the southern region  ( i dont like the green livery of the coaches and most of their loco designs)  although I don't mind LNER. Might be a contentious comment eh!

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33 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 The red parts show the change with the original underneath

 

Thanks.  I acknowledge Balders45's response, but note that the revised arrangement gives more separation between the sidings and the short loop, where it is needed for loading and unloading (Lambourne actually had a crane in this space).  I'm not sure what you propose to use the back siding for - coal perhaps (Lambourne had the cattle dock here of course)? In any case it looks like loading access if required would be towards the bottom of the plan so separation between the two sidings is not critical.

 

3 hours ago, Balders45 said:

As for the bay as it is, I see it as (clichéd I'm sure) parcels and news paper traffic. I feel with 4 coach trains the station is a step up or two from a very rural BLT and therfore require a slight busier timetable, increase in traffic  and with that a dedicated parcel bay. Might be a load of tosh but it kind of sits well with me!!

 

That would go well with an end dock on the bay, built originally to handle carriages travelling with their wealthy owners.  By the way, Lambourne is a small town rather than a village, so that fits too.  Another station, reasonably close to Lambourne, that would give a good impression of a town site is Abingdon - there's a fair amount of info online, including a video of a very nice N gauge layout.

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5 hours ago, Harlequin said:

It was a different thread but, yes, the end-loading dock is a bit awkward in it's current position. I put it there because Lambourn's end-loading dock seems to at the end of it's very long cattle pens siding and because it seems to me they are almost always found in the goods yard, not near the passnger areas.

 

 

 

Strangely (perhaps) on the Western I am more familiar with end loading docks being found at the passenger station rather than the goods - probably as much as anythinga relic of much of teh traffic which used such docks becoming passenger rated.   Thus Slough - dock at the station, none at the goods depot; Twyfortd - dock at the station on the branch runround loop, which also had the cattle pens; Henley-On-Thames - dock at the station although adjacent to the goods shed road; Reading - dock at the station, none at the main goods depot (there might have been one at Reading Central?).

 

I think what created this situation was that generally at stations the platform was at the level of surrounding ground so there was no specific need to build a dock structure , especially if some sort of bay or short bay was available.  And of course where all else failed side loading was also available.

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19 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Strangely (perhaps) on the Western I am more familiar with end loading docks being found at the passenger station rather than the goods - probably as much as anythinga relic of much of teh traffic which used such docks becoming passenger rated.   Thus Slough - dock at the station, none at the goods depot; Twyfortd - dock at the station on the branch runround loop, which also had the cattle pens; Henley-On-Thames - dock at the station although adjacent to the goods shed road; Reading - dock at the station, none at the main goods depot (there might have been one at Reading Central?).

 

I think what created this situation was that generally at stations the platform was at the level of surrounding ground so there was no specific need to build a dock structure , especially if some sort of bay or short bay was available.  And of course where all else failed side loading was also available.

 

Yes, my statement was based on stations I had been looking at recently rather than a proper survey. I'll do some more research.

 

Good point about ground levels.

 

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I think the bay platform would be more likely used for end loading. To me it seems a more likely place to put a horse box - or even siphons for loading. I would get rid of the end loading at the cattle dock and use the bay for end loading.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

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13 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Here's a version with a few tweaks - most notably moving the end loading position.

1190347444_LambsteadScenic7.png.242a4df9f8a2f507b96e062caee0631f.png

 

And revised fiddle yard as discussed with Martin.

1862092495_LambsteadFY7a.png.9c6a96db838e782e27d488b910a3694f.png

 

Absolutely perfect Phil, love everything about it, noted the end loading change, fine by me, this is it, this is the track plan for me!!

I dare anyone to find fault!!!!

Thanks again,

 

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I'm just wondering, could the FY be scenic and made into a terminus, perhaps for different period stock etc, and then the main layout becomes a FY for it, a sort of swappable layout? I'm trying to balance 1970s BR interests with 1930s Midland, this may provide a solution...

 

Looks good.

 

cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

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