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Alan Gibson hornblocks and mainframes


hayfield
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7 hours ago, hayfield said:

One step forward and about 3 back

 

978.jpeg.eedef67d4aa1e9f056c488d7e6c594fb.jpeg

 

It took me ages to get the first hornblock fitted but go easier with each one. Trouble is the springs seem too strong, wheels are all over the place quartering is now out and definitely lost its free running charistics

 

I will take the chassis back to its state last night, where it was free running, Firstly see if the quartering is OK. Then figure out the springing again.

I have used the Gibson sprung hornblocks on a couple of chassis.  The main reason being that you can drop wheelsets in and out just like many RTR chassis.  I don't like disassembling Gibson wheels once fitted square on the axle....  Because they project inside the chassis they do somewhat limit the gearbox width.  OK for P4 but I had some trouble with an O-16.5 chassis.

 

The normal setup for 0-6-0s is to level the chassis using the outside adjusting screws then unscrew the centre axle screws to allow a little upward movement.

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20 hours ago, hayfield said:

as the milled cutouts seemed to fit the coupling rods fine.

 

As we are dealing with some small tolerances between a free and stiff chassis, I am not sure how you can establish this without using the jig to assemble the chassis.  

 

I have never encountered a problem when soldering with 145 degree on my Hobby Holidays jig.  One solution to the heatsink issue is to solder the side away from the main body of the jig first, take the chassis off, flip it and solder the other side.

 

Another thought is that with an all horn block construction, the wheelbase is a moveable feast as things move up and down, so you will need to open out the rods slightly.  However, looking at the pics, you appear to be using the Romford crank pins which IIRC are about 1mm whereas the Hobby Holidays jig is designed to use 1.5mm rod holes so I am wonder whether the jig was setup using these rods?

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Brassey

 

Thanks for the reply, yes I used these coupling rods when setting up the jig, and am using Romford wheels until I am happy with the chassis. As it happens the kit of bits never had any coupling rods, these are of the correct size and came from my spare coupling rod box

 

I do think the main issue is from not using the jig and perhaps soldering the hornblock guides slightly out of square

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10 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

All this 'floppy chassis' business seems to me to be making trouble for oneself; I'm with Tony Wright on this - give me a good old rigid chassis any time.

 

(..... and, yes - I have built compensated and sprung chassis, but they were a lot more faff and didn't run as well as my rigid ones).

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

I might be coming round to this way of thinking, as I said its a test bed for me and I always thought it would be a big learning curve. Having said this I made a flexi-chassis many years ago without any jigs !!!

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12 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

All this 'floppy chassis' business seems to me to be making trouble for oneself; I'm with Tony Wright on this - give me a good old rigid chassis any time.

 

(..... and, yes - I have built compensated and sprung chassis, but they were a lot more faff and didn't run as well as my rigid ones).

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Interesting, my experience is the complete opposite! I just can't  get all the wheels in contact with the rail at the same time, I need the flanges to keep the vehicle on the track. For me, compensation works much better.

 

Cheers

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1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Interesting, my experience is the complete opposite! I just can't  get all the wheels in contact with the rail at the same time, I need the flanges to keep the vehicle on the track. For me, compensation works much better.

 

Cheers

 

David

 

Using my Hobby Holidays chassis jig it is very easy to get a rigid  chassis square simply by first fitting the bearings into the sides, then using the same chassis to keep both frames square whilst soldering the frame spacers together.

 

The problem I am facing is the fact that there seems to be quite a lot of slop between the horn block guides and hornblocks, which should be taken up by the U shaped wire which acts both as a guide and retaining strap

 

I do to have 2 other styles of guides one being the MJT another being a London Road type, I will see how I get on 

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The bearings should be a loose enough fit in the guides so that they fall out under their own weight but definitely not sloppy.  Were these acquire used?

 

Both the MJT and LRM types are unsprung so will need either some beam compensation or CSB setup.

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16 minutes ago, Brassey said:

The bearings should be a loose enough fit in the guides so that they fall out under their own weight but definitely not sloppy.  Were these acquire used?

 

Both the MJT and LRM types are unsprung so will need either some beam compensation or CSB setup.

 

Brassey

 

No the units were new, and as I said its down to how I have fitted them

 

I need to revisit the how I fitted them, as now I have a better understanding of how they are supposed to work

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If I recall from my 850 build the retaining wires on the Gibson sprung blocks don’t play any part in guiding the square bearings, the cheeks on the horn guides should do that. The bearings are not always square so try them in different orientation and mark them so you can put them back in the same orientations and hornguides.

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Not true, the wires go between the half grooves in both the hornblock and square axle bearing.  This effectively constrains lateral axle movement.

 

IIRC the grooves in the bearings are off centre allowing the outer bearing face to be proud of the hornblock which is meant to be flush with the frame.

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  • 7 months later...
On 15/11/2019 at 13:40, hayfield said:

 

David

 

Using my Hobby Holidays chassis jig it is very easy to get a rigid  chassis square simply by first fitting the bearings into the sides, then using the same chassis to keep both frames square whilst soldering the frame spacers together.

 

The problem I am facing is the fact that there seems to be quite a lot of slop between the horn block guides and hornblocks, which should be taken up by the U shaped wire which acts both as a guide and retaining strap

 

I do to have 2 other styles of guides one being the MJT another being a London Road type, I will see how I get on 

John,

Coming back to your thread, how do you set up the HH jig when the mainframes have slots in them for hornblocks?

Just asking because the next project will be a chassis for the Ks Johnson 0-4-0ST and I've just bought the AGW side frames for this and I'm thinking very strongly of buying the HH jig for the project.

Cheers, hoping you're well

David

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10 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

John,

Coming back to your thread, how do you set up the HH jig when the mainframes have slots in them for hornblocks?

Just asking because the next project will be a chassis for the Ks Johnson 0-4-0ST and I've just bought the AGW side frames for this and I'm thinking very strongly of buying the HH jig for the project.

Cheers, hoping you're well

David

 

Derek of Eileen's Emporium has a YouTube video which is very instructional, using his own version, but both are very similar

 

The process is much the same, set the jig up with the coupling rods then fit each mainframe in turn to the jig with the hornblocks in place, once both sides are done use the jig to join the two frames together with frame spacers

 

I have just got one of the K's TVR's today, missing the cab front and a few other bits, but enough to model, trying to find out how to obtain a set of mainframes from Ambis and will use High Level hornblocks 

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Missed this thread.  I have tried Gibson hornblocks but they were a faff for me.  I recall tiny parts being soldered together and coming apart when the next part was soldered.  Ugh!

 

HL hornblocks are a pleasure.

 

John

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1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

John,

Coming back to your thread, how do you set up the HH jig when the mainframes have slots in them for hornblocks?

Just asking because the next project will be a chassis for the Ks Johnson 0-4-0ST and I've just bought the AGW side frames for this and I'm thinking very strongly of buying the HH jig for the project.

Cheers, hoping you're well

David

 

 

David

 

I think there may be a couple of us thinking about building one, Brossard left a link to his build on my request for instructions thread

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John,

Finished looking at the YouTube videos, most interesting, they seem to imply that if you're going build a six-coupled diesel with a jackshaft then you need to buy the jig for an 8/10 coupled locomotive. There are also silent and sound videos which is confusing.

Have to put my thinking cap on, these are expensive tools

Cheers

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On 15/11/2019 at 13:40, hayfield said:

 

David

 

...

 

The problem I am facing is the fact that there seems to be quite a lot of slop between the horn block guides and hornblocks, which should be taken up by the U shaped wire which acts both as a guide and retaining strap

 

...

John,

 

I could never make the AGW hornblocks work and I've not tried the LRMs. I do have some LRMs in stock, but then I found HL and didn't see much point in further experimentation.

 

With HL it's best to push the folded up hornblock guide as far as it will go in the slot then it will be square and the hornblocks will go straight up and down vertically. I have used draughting tape to hold them in place while soldering.

 

Cheers, good to hear from you.

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1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

John,

Finished looking at the YouTube videos, most interesting, they seem to imply that if you're going build a six-coupled diesel with a jackshaft then you need to buy the jig for an 8/10 coupled locomotive. There are also silent and sound videos which is confusing.

Have to put my thinking cap on, these are expensive tools

Cheers

 

David

 

Its a great pity I moved away, otherwise you could borrow mine (you still could if you wish). I must admit before buying mine I looked at them with envy and bulked at the cost. I was very lucky and bought mine cheaply, they are very good and now I would not be without one.

 

Poppy's do a more basic wooden one, many have said how good they are for a quarter or less of the price, but I have no idea if they are as easy to use for fitting hornblocks 

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On 01/07/2020 at 18:27, PenrithBeacon said:

John,

 

I could never make the AGW hornblocks work and I've not tried the LRMs. I do have some LRMs in stock, but then I found HL and didn't see much point in further experimentation.

 

With HL it's best to push the folded up hornblock guide as far as it will go in the slot then it will be square and the hornblocks will go straight up and down vertically. I have used draughting tape to hold them in place while soldering.

 

Cheers, good to hear from you.

 

David

 

What chassis are you building, I have ordered an Ambis one but Alan is out of stock for 6-8 weeks, however I have ordered a CSP (Agenoria) chassis which includes cylinders etc. I have bought 2 other chassis from CSP in the past and they are excellent, I am going to put the K's chassis motor and wheels on eBay, just not worth the hassel 

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3 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

David

 

What chassis are you building, I have ordered an Ambis one but Alan is out of stock for 6-8 weeks, however I have ordered a CSP (Agenoria) chassis which includes cylinders etc. I have bought 2 other chassis from CSP in the past and they are excellent, I am going to put the K's chassis motor and wheels on eBay, just not worth the hassel 

John,

I am intending to make a chassis for a Ks Johnson 0-4-0ST and I have most of the components I need all from AGW including the side frames. After looking at the videos Derek Russlan made for the Avonside jig I have decided that it isn't appropriate for this chassis.

Cheers

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I have seen on one of the recent threads for small 0-4-0 chassis (think it was N15 of this parish) that you build the chassis as you would a wagon, Fixed axle where it is driven and a pivot rod in the center of the non driven axle for maximum electrical conductivity, 3 legged stool principal. Having said this a rigid chassis should be fine

 

I have gone for the CSP chassis as it has all the cylinders, coupling and connecting rods and once the Ambis chassis arrives may go under another Polly / Nelly

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John,

 

Mine will be BPRC so electrical connectivity to the rails doesn't matter to me. The motor will be an N15 with integral 60:1 gearbox driving, probably, the leading axle via nylon bevel gears with the rear axle compensated.

IMG_20191214_151152.jpg

The picture gives the general idea. Both motor and carrier are available off eBay very cheaply, for EM you might have to cut off one side of the channel as well as the lugs. Fixing in the frames will by Araldite.

Cheers

David

Edited by PenrithBeacon
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