Pre-Grouping train services across the Thames?

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

did that headshunt/etc. ever do anything? 

 

Looks to be the remains of the access to the Great Northern's Farringdon St goods station?

[Nearholmer]

The track and signalling layouts for 1926 and 1956 can be found here http://www.harsig.org/Metropolitan.htm

 

I think what can be seen is the later version of the banking engine spur, not the earlier lines to the GNR goods depot, but I’d welcome confirmation/denial.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Nearholmer

[phil_sutters]

In my albums there is a set of maps from a Gazetteer of GB & Ireland, which my Dad dated to circa 1884, from the development of the railways. The set is from a double page spread on the railways of London. The pages in the gazetteer are about 10.25" x 13" so they have been scanned in overlapping sections and the key panel has been added to each page. It is a fairly basic map with only passenger stations, but it may be of interest. You can see it at 

 

[Nearholmer]

Date between 1882, when the Met got as far as Tower, and October 1884, when the circle was completed by linking through to Mansion House.

[Tom Burnham]

Copy of section of a 1914 revision map showing from Clerkenwell Road at the top to south of Farringdon station.  Doesn't identify the hole in the retaining wall on the right, but does show the trackage associated with the Great Northern Railway goods depot. 

[Nearholmer]

A couple of slightly earlier views.

 

I think that ‘hole’ is where the street is carried across a kink in the retaining wall on girders. It might even be a WW2 bomb-damage repair - that area took some big direct hits.

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Nearholmer

[PenrithBeacon]

The 'hole' was to give space to a turntable that was associated with the first station on the site.

Cheers

[D9020 Nimbus]

There was an article From SECR to GNR in Trains Annual in the mid-1960s covering cross-London passenger traffic in the pre-grouping era.

[Lacathedrale]

24 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

There was an article From SECR to GNR in Trains Annual in the mid-1960s covering cross-London passenger traffic in the pre-grouping era.

I can only find reference to a book  with the subtitle 'A Cross-London Journey, 1906' by Ian Allen ? Seems to be a bit of a ghost though!

[D9020 Nimbus]

To be specific, Trains Annual 1965, published by Ian Allan. Pages 68–73, the article's author is Edward Treby. The article takes the form of a description of a journey from Woolwich Arsenal to Wood Green, including loco types, coaches used, etc., as it would have been written in 1906—you have the right sub-title (actually, the second part of the article's title).

[Caley Jim]

7 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

The 'hole' was to give space to a turntable that was associated with the first station on the site.

There was a similar arrangement in Union Terrace Gardens in Aberdeen.  Bottom left of the photos.

 

Jim

[wagonman]

On 21/12/2019 at 18:44, Compound2632 said:

 

Looks to be the remains of the access to the Great Northern's Farringdon St goods station?

 

I have a distinct memory of seeing an engine parked in that spur in c1960. I was surprised as I had thought the GN depot closed (it was) – it was merely derelict then – the ramp and car park came later.

 

The engine was what we now know as an 08!

[Nearholmer]

The very class that was latterly used as bankers.

[wagonman]

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The very class that was latterly used as bankers.

 

Thanks for the info – i'd been wondering what it was doing there for 60 years. Now I know!  :-)

[Guy Rixon]

The GNRS have in their list of publications a booklet on Farringdon that covers the goods station there. It also has some details of the LCDR Smithfield sidings.

[ChrisN]

I am finding this.  Having lived in North London when I was young and then worked at Barts I am finding out things about this line that is difficult to find out when you are jammed in a tube train as shown earlier in a rush hour.  I think the widened lines were more or less moribund when I was at Barts in the late seventies and Thameslink happened later.

 

I do remember as a boy standing on an opene platform at Kings Cross, but when I looked at when this platform closed it did not fit in with my memories, unless I was much younger than I remember.

[Nearholmer]

Another useful related thread that I'd forgotten. 

 

[Lacathedrale]

I've ordered the 1965 annual as suggested earlier, I'll post the relevant information in this thread when it appears!

[chris p bacon]

On 24/12/2019 at 09:21, Guy Rixon said:

The GNRS have in their list of publications a booklet on Farringdon that covers the goods station there. It also has some details of the LCDR Smithfield sidings.

Here you go 

 

https://www.gnrsociety.com/home-page/shop/farringdon/

 

It is a standalone book based on articles in Great Northern news.

 

[Lacathedrale]

I have the article and though I'm sure there would be no practical issue with copyrights in reproducing I think it would be more in the spirit of the board to summarise.

 

To get you in the mood, an uncredited photo of London Bridge at the turn of the 20th century:


As of 1906:

• The LCDR and SER would be obliged to match each other's services onto GNR destinations
• Example routes were:
  • Victoria to High Barnet and to Enfield (ceasing in 1907) 
  • Woolwich Arsenal to Wood Green and Alexandra Palace (ceasing in 1907) 
  • Victoria to Moorgate St. (ceasing in 1916) where three platforms are dedicated for MR/SECR/GNR trains,
• SE&CR Q/Q1 classes haul a high proportion of local trains
• Rebuilt ex-SER Q1-class 0-4-4T is motive power on Woolwich Arsenal to Wood Green
• Though there is some SE&CR stock, the majority is nondescript 6w ex-LCDR/ex-SER coach sets - as old as the 1860's.
• 1840's carriages were still in use as departmental stock
• Angerstein Wharf branch motive power may have been Cudworth I-class - an 1855 vintage 0-6-0!
• No evidence of electrification at LB at this date
• On the adjacent LBSCR, Billington's B2-class would be pulling an equivalent brighton express with 6w stock - inner loop services handled by Terrer's like Tooting, Brixton, and Clapham
• Wainwright D-class 4-4-0 would be pulling the Folkestone to Cannon Street express
• Borough Market junction one of the busiest sections of track in the UK at this date
• The curve up from the SER main onto the LCDR metals (whose name I've forgotten) may have had a parallel spur from the LCDR (presumably towards Waterloo?) - which was never built a prime site for my layout!
• No electrified trams yet, by Blackfriars
• Kirtley (nephew of MR's Kirtley) M-class ex-LCDR 4-4-0's may have been seen at St Pauls
• At this stage, remnants of disused stations (Borough Road glimpsed down the LCDR line towards Elephant & Castle, and the old Blackfriars terminus, now used for goods)
• In LCDR Days St. Pauls (i.e. Blackfriars) was an important station for continental, akin to Cannon St. and Charing Cross.
• Ludgate Hill would see SE&CR and GNR trains, with the LSWR terminus from a Wimbledon (via Merton Abbey or Haydon's Rd) train, pulled by Drummond 0-4-4T's.
• Snow Hill renamed Holborn Viaduct Low-Level in 1912, only accessible via main Holborn Viaduct station.
• Midland Railway 780-class condensing tanks would be running across the widened lines on goods
• Great Northern 0-6-0 saddle tanks would act as bankers up from the widened lines to Ludgate Hill, even for passengers
• Teak liveried Met line trains would be seen in the tunnels
• Relevant to the discussion above with that older picture of Farringdon, the right hand side is noted as Met goods yard (via GNR and MR)
• Exiting at Kings Cross Metropolitan up to the Suburban platform and before Gasworks tunnel, we can see Ivatt Atlantics, East Coast Joint Stock, the transformation from 2-2-2 and 2-4-2 to 4-4-2's is complete.

Precious little on GNR and MR services southbound, but nonetheless ripe pickings!

 

Thank for the recommendation!

[Nearholmer]

The Brighton electrifications dated from a few years after 1906, so you are 'safe' from them.

 

Mildly random observations on 6W coaches:

 

- the ones that Hattons are planning do, to me at least, look very similar to LCDR low roof ones, which survived in suburban traffic until the 1920s SR electrifications, and some of which were converted to PP units;

 

- I thought until recently that all the Billinton 6W stock was paired-up onto bogie underframes pre-WW1, but I saw a couple of photos recently that showed great long sidings-full of them at Balcombe and Brighton in the late-1920s. It wasn't possible to discern exactly what type they were, but my surmise is that they were suburban ones, recently withdrawn, and stored awaiting scrapping/recycling at Lancing.

 

Which is a roundabout way of saying that you could probably get away with a 1920s scenario on your layout, merely by having fleets in SR livery and passengers in slightly different fashions. 

 

The earlier Met goods at Farringdon was spread about either side of the Widened Lines to the east of the station, and I think it probably closed after Vine Street Goods was opened, because it must have been really, really awkward to shunt.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

The Bad News: my repro copy of Die Londoner Untergrundbahn arrived today, purchased from Blackwells no less, and it is utterly illegible rubbish! It must have been scanned at one dot per square metre, then printed on a 1950s Roneo stencil duplicator. Words are being exchanged!

 

The Good News: in frustration, I had another bash at finding a read-on-line copy, and succeeded this time!

 

You will all really enjoy this https://archive.org/details/dielondonerunte01trosgoog/page/n17  Herr Troske should be posthumously knighted for services to railway historians.

[Lacathedrale]

I have some more information to contribute. By 1913 or so, the LB&SCR and SE&CR had the most carriages per loco - probably to due their commuter nature, and the preponderance of passenger traffic on their lines - they were in the bottom third of raw passenger numbers and in the bottom half of passengers-per-mile.

 

Though not directly related, another wonderfully atmospheric photograph:

 

With regard to Ludgate Hill, LCDR (and then SE&CR( boat trains were split between City and Victoria until 1916, the former having tank engine haulage from Herne Hill to Holborn Viaduct, through Ludgate Hill (whence the services were extended into HV when it opened), and the latter with the mainline express engines working. In 1887 there were both morning and evening departures to Queenborough and Dover, as well as services to the newly opened Maidstone and Ashford lines and fast services to the Kent Coast. The majority of services however, passed through Ludgate Hill and down the Metropolitan Extension , on whose curve Holborn Viaduct low-level (nee Snow Hill) was built, towards Moorgate St and the GNR, rather than terminating at the upper level station. Spiers & Pond were the LCDR's contracted refreshment room and hotel company, and took the lease on the Holborn Viaduct station hotel.

 

Upon the opening of Blackfriars (nee St. Pauls) in 1886, Ludgate Hill was mostly redundant, a rebuild completed in 1912 removed the obselete mainline platforms and slew the track alignments to widen and lengthen the local platform.

 

The author suggests that passenger services to Farringdon ceased in 1908 and Moorgate St in 1916, Holborn Viaduct Low Level closing in 1916 too - and passenger services down the LCDR Metropolitan extension ceased until the reopening of Thameslink in 1988. This seems outrageous to me, but then I grew up in the 90's and so Thameslink was already a thing!

 

At the Joint Committee (1899) Holborn Viaduct itself was already something of a backwater, with fewer than five thousand people using it per day (compared to eighty thousand at Liverpool St) and newspaper and parcels traffic dominating. To quote Ahrons of Holborn Viaduct in his indomitable tone: There stood at one of the platforms one of those particular rabbit hutch carriages of the Chatham - empty. Not a solitary human being was seen until after about five minutes a particularly mournful porter put in an appearance" . By 1922 there were just eight mainline departures per day, including Kent Coast named 'City Express' trains - which despite the dismal prospects still put on in all style, a Pullman first-class tea car.

 

There is more information about Holborn Viaduct, but all of it now lives in the annals of modern era (aka Grouping)! Thank you so much to @TJ52 for sending me some wonderful magazine scans with this information in longform.

[Nearholmer]

24 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

in the bottom half of passengers-per-mile

 

Is that correct: that they had comparatively low numbers of passengers per mile of route?

 

For the SECR I think I might believe that, but it doesn't ring true for the LBSCR.

 

Are you sure that what is being cited isn't passenger.miles (the sum total of all miles travelled by all passengers) as opposed to passengers per mile of route? Urban and suburban railways usually have high figures for passengers per route mile, but quite low figures for total passenger miles, intercity railways rather the opposite. 

 

I'm trying to think which railways would have had the highest number of passengers per route mile in 1913: C&SLR; Met; District; Central London; GNP&B; Mersey; Glasgow Subway; LOR; NLR (not independent by then though); Tyneside Electrics (but buried in NER stats); GER (but thinned out by its rural bits); Wirral; LT&S ......... basically anywhere that the traffic was dense enough to merit electrification (even if, like the GER, the company couldn't afford it). How am I doing?

[Lacathedrale]

@Nearholmer - here you go:

 

 

The 16mi NLR moved more freight than the whole of the  LBSCR, thanks to its london dockyard connections!

 

As an aside, is this the GNR goods depot, behind Farringdon?

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by Lacathedrale