Pre-Grouping train services across the Thames?

[Nearholmer]

And, I think the LC&D service to Moorgate included trains to Greenwich Park, and to Crystal Palace (High Level), as well as the Victoria shuttle, and I think the Met ran Hammersmith to New Cross (LBSC) via Farringdon and St Mary's Curve, which I haven't shown. 

 

To prevent total insanity, the next things are probably to do similar for the East and West London Lines, and Kew Bridge, which then covers all of the major crossings of the river that were used by inter-company traffic.

 

Not now though!

Edited December 18, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

Too many ToCs?

 

Lt.-Col. Hutchinson reported on an accident at Farringdon Street Junction on 1 Sept 1871, the first day on which LC&DR trains ran to Ludgate Hill and Moorgate over the new curve bypassing Farringdon - so the first day of new signalling arrangements. The trains involved were Midland from Herne Hill to Kentish Town, stopping at all stations and headed by one of Kirtley's 0-4-4Ts, and Great Northern from Moorgate to Kings Cross.

 

The same to companies' trains were involved in an accident at Aldersgate on 25 Jan 1875; H.W. Tyler wrote the report (but failed to give his rank); both trains were departures from Moorgate but their destinations are not given. It is stated that the widened lines were used only by trains of those two companies and the LC&DR.

 

The home company was involved in a collision at Aldgate on 23 May 1884, upon which Col. Yolland reported. The Metropolitan train was an arrival from Hammersmith; it was in collision with a Metropolitan District train awaiting departure for Bishopsgate. A Great Western train to Addison Road was a bystander.

 

Maj.-Gen. Hutchinson (when was his promotion?) reported on an all Midland affair at Kings Cross Junction on 12 Sept of the same year. The participants were a South Tottenham to Moorgate passenger train and an engine with two goods brakes going from Kentish Town to the Midland's Whitecross St goods station. Some confusion in the working seems to have been caused by the proximity of a LC&DR train going "to the Midland".

 

On the 15 July the following year, the Midland and Great Northern were at it again, at Kings Cross (Met) station - the participants were a Midland passenger train from Hendon to Moorgate and a Great Northern goods from Kings Cross goods yard to Battersea. Maj. Marindin investigated.

 

Maj.-Gen. Hutchinson was back after a three-way smash at Farringdon on 10 Dec 1886. A Midland goods train, Whitecross St goods station to St Pancras goods, split; the rear half was run into by a Great Northern train up from Enfield for Moorgate; the wreakage was then struck by a Midland train from Moorgate to South Tottenham. Nearly 80 were injured but fortunately there were no fatalities. (My rather callous interest in this one is the list of damaged Midland wagons.)

 

It was Maj. Marindin's turn to report on another collision involving a goods train, at Midland Junction on 2 Jan 1888. A Midland train from South Tottenham to Victoria just touched up the rear of a Great Northern goods from Farringdon St (GNR goods - see RCH map) to Clarence Yard. 

 

Straying off the Widened Lines, Maj. Marindin reported on an accident on 19 March 1888 at Devonshire St, between Baker St and Portland Rd, between a Met train from New Cross to Hammersmith and a Great Western train from Aldgate to Kensington.

 

Just when you thought the Chatham was doing a good job of keeping its nose clean, one of its trains derailed between Farringdon St and Kings Cross, on 5 Feb 1892. This was a train from Victoria to Muswell Hill. Maj.-Gen. Hutchinson praised the guard, John Howard, for his prompt application of the Westinghouse brake.

 

I've omitted some accidents involving only Metropolitan and Metropolitan District trains.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Compound2632

[Lacathedrale]

So a Met train running on what is now the Hammersmith & City line and to Whitechapel and around St. Mary's curve onto the ELR?

 

Interesting that St. Pauls had terminating LSWR suburban trains?!

[Nearholmer]

I need to re-label St paul's to make things clearer, because it was actually the Ludgate Hill bit that was used by the LSWR. [Done]

 

This was the only conventional railway service, as opposed to tube railway, that I know of that terminated in a fiddle-yard in a tunnel. the trains ran down into a yard beside the Snow Hill line (I think called Smithfield Sidings, although Smithfield Market is just a tiny bit to the East and was served by GWR sidings branching from the Widened Lines), which even had a sector plate for engine release. It was next to, but separate from the GNR underground yard that served their goods warehouse.

 

As regards Hammersmith to New Cross, the District also ran a service from Hammersmith, along the bottom side of the Circle, which went to New Cross (SER).
 

Compound has now made my life harder by finding an LCDR service onto the GNR too, but that will have to wait!

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

Well, I found a really detailed, and incredibly obscure reference source!

 

It contains masses of detail of traffic over the underground as it existed in 1892, including summaries of goods and passenger services.

 

Found a cheap copy! 
 

A few days wait for Santa to deliver.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

Genial! Gibt es einen Link zu einem PDF?

[Tom Burnham]

By coincidence there's the first part of an article by Geoffrey Skelsey on the Metropolitan Widened Lines (including the Snow Hill tunnel) in the January 2020 BackTrack, which I picked up today.

 

Regarding Smithfield Sidings, I believe they were electrified (3rd rail) as part of the Thameslink project for terminating non-Thameslink trains from the south, but I think they saw little regular use.  Possibly someone can give more details.

[Tom Burnham]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Genial! Gibt es einen Link zu einem PDF?

Some preview pages on Google Books.

Otherwise there is a reprint (VDI-Verlag) available via Amazon (other booksellers are available) although apparently only with some delay - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Die-Londoner-Untergrundbahnen-Ludwig-Troske/dp/3744632830

[Nearholmer]

I scoured for a pdf or even full text online, but the original publisher has it tied-up tight, so I’ve ordered a secondhand copy of a reissue at much lower price than all the ePub people are offering.

 

I've got the latest Backtrack to read - not opened it yet.

 

As to the later version of Smithfield Sidings: I think I remember them being there ....... I designed and oversaw the installation of a system to automatically swap the running rail connections from SR earth-free traction return to LM earthed return as trains passed in each direction when Thameslink first ran through, and “my” cabin full of contactors and relays was down there, but my dim recollection is that there were no electrified sidings to worry about.
 

I think there were two sidings, but even that I’m not totally certain about, and if they’d had CR connected to the SR system, or even running rails bonded to SR, they would certainly have been of concern to me at the time.

 

Maybe I’m just getting forgetful!

 

EDIT: Well, they certainly did exist, maybe still do! I just found a video on YouTube taken from a train reversing in them. But, what I can’t work out is whether they were/are on the site of the old LSWR sidings, or the trackbed of the old east curve.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I scoured for a pdf or even full text online, but the original publisher has it tied-up tight,

 

 

Normal Springer behaviour - a tight-fisted lot.

[Tom Burnham]

The services of "foreign" companies offered an opportunity to make comparisons, not always favourable to the home team -

Kentish Independent - Saturday 8 June 1878, p.4
"THE NEW RAILWAY SERVICE. - The introduction of the rolling stock of the Great Northern Railway Company on the North Kent line promises to be of advantage to travellers, beyond the convenience it affords of getting quickly and comfortably to central and north London and more distant stations, for the South Eastern directors cannot long endure the comparison between their old carriages and those of the rival company whom they have admitted into their domain.  The Great Northern carriages are among the best in England, roomy, clean, and well lighted, and even the third class carriages have cushioned seats and hat rails - the greatest contrast imaginable to the wretched horse boxes in which the weary bones of the North Kent passengers have been chafed and shaken for so many years past.  The first and second class carriages are absolutely faultless.  The engines are of a very powerful kind, and the trains are provided throughout with vacuum breaks.  The chairman of the South Eastern Company has promised to pay a visit of inspection to the Woolwich and Plumstead stations shortly, and it is to be hoped that he will come down in one of the Great Northern trains, and return in one of his own company's."

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

the South Eastern directors cannot long endure the comparison between their old carriages and those of the rival company whom they have admitted into their domain.  

 

... O but they could and did!

[Nearholmer]

Do.

[Nearholmer]

Reading the accident reports that Compound linked to, and timetables, rams home how utterly congested and difficult to operate the Widened Lines and the top of the Circle had become by the late-C19th.

 

There were something like 28 scheduled passenger trains per hour in each direction on each of Widened and Circle during the peaks, and not many fewer off-peak, all loco-hauled by steamers that had to be swopped-about at termini like Moorgate and Aldgate; there were goods trains, some of which ran during the shoulders of the peaks, and some of which seem to have been "push-ins", rather than properly pathed in the timetable; both lines are plagued by flat junctions (even more so then, when there were all the goods station accesses); and the Widened in particular has gradients and curves that almost qualify it as a fairground ride.

 

In the dark, with smoke and fog so thick that guys had to use a flare-lamp to illuminate the rail head and follow that when they had to go down on the ballast.

 

This photo of Aldgate has been widely reproduced, but I think its one of the better ones for giving some idea of it all https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/photographs/item/2010-24670?&apiurl=aHR0cHM6Ly9hcGkubHRtdXNldW0uY28udWsvcGhvdG9ncmFwaHM/c2hvcnQ9MSZza2lwPTAmbGltaXQ9NDgmcT1zdGVhbQ==&searchpage=Y29sbGVjdGlvbnMvY29sbGVjdGlvbnMtb25saW5lL3Bob3RvZ3JhcGhzL3BhZ2UvMT8mcT1zdGVhbQ==

 

Its worth going to Aldgate nowadays, because it is still a truly fascinating bit of railway infrastructure, with plenty remaining from Victorian times. Also, Farringdon, because there is a footbridge that gives a view along the line towards King's Cross, where you can see Thameslink trains climbing up from underneath Ray Street Gridiron and imagine what it was like trying to schlepp a goods train up there ....... 1:40, with no run at it, then level-ish through the station, a sharp right, and up another steep hill through Snow Hill tunnel, banked by a loco that lurked in a little spur siding, waiting to pounce.

[Tom Burnham]

Looking west from Farringdon in 1971 (very much changed since, of course) - 

 

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

the Widened in particular has gradients and curves that almost qualify it as a fairground ride.

 

Its worth going to Aldgate nowadays, because it is still a truly fascinating bit of railway infrastructure, with plenty remaining from Victorian times. Also, Farringdon, because there is a footbridge that gives a view along the line towards King's Cross, where you can see Thameslink trains climbing up from underneath Ray Street Gridiron and imagine what it was like trying to schlepp a goods train up there ....... 1:40, with no run at it, then level-ish through the station, a sharp right, and up another steep hill through Snow Hill tunnel, banked by a loco that lurked in a little spur siding, waiting to pounce.

 

And all worked by 4-coupled engines of one sort or another, until S.W. Johnson managed to sneak his big (BIG!) 2441 Class condensing 0-6-0Ts in at the turn of the century - 16'6" rigid wheelbase - such long engines had been disallowed in Kirtley's time but evidently that was long forgotten. In later years the Great Northern services got nice big competent-looking 0-6-2Ts whilst the Midland services had to get by with the weediest-looking engines the LMS ever built.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

The GN had a bash with 0-8-2T didn't they?

 

And, wasn't there some very early 0-8-0T goods engine?

 

Both designed by people who'd never been there, perhaps!

[Compound2632]

Ivatt's Class L1 of 1903 (LNER R1):

 

 

Said to have been "too heavy" for the Widened Lines...

[ChrisN]

I think the 0-8-0 was an LC&DR locomotive, but soon got banned.

[Nearholmer]

Two 0-8-0T for the GNR in 1866. I have a vague recollection that last time they discussed here, someone found that they had been clogged-off to somewhere in Wales.

 

i keep thinking of such big locos having some of their wheels off the rails where the gradients change so suddenly - certainly they must have suffered wheel-unloading to some degree, just where they needed maximum traction.

 

Here’s what I can find:

 

Avonside 0-8-0 Tank Engines 
Groves (1) pp. 101-5. Page 103 table compares GNR 0-8-0Ts with Vale of Neath type from which the GNR type was derived. Intended for working over Metropolitan Railway onto LCDR. Edward Slaughter had informed Sturrock of Vale of Neath design. The leading and trailing axleboxes were fitted with Caillet (a Frenchman) patented Edward Slaughter form of side control. The locomotives were numbered 472-3 and had Avonside Works Numbers 633-4. They were withdrawn in 1880. They were too big for the line and it is not clear for how long that they worked on the Metropolitan line. Figs. 99-100 (phot.). The condensing apparatus fitted was to the patent of Edward Slaughter: 2451/1863. Goslin, Geoff. Steam on the Widened Lines. Volume 1: The Great Northern and Midland Railways and their successors. 1997 (No. 472 is shown on page 9).

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Guy Rixon]

The Sturrock 0-8-0s were for the GNR, but the LCDR tentatively ordered some too. When the GNR ones were banned from the Widened Lines because they were too heavy and too long in the rigid wheelbase, the LCDR cancelled their order. There is a little more detail in the RCTS Locomotive History of the LCDR.

 

Concerning the cross-river movements, there were van trains moving perishables through Ludgate Hill. There were even LNWR services passing this way, one of which  conveyed fish vans from Fleetwood. In the 20th century, some of the van trains went through to Hither Green and some went to Cannon Street, which was the SECR's centre for this traffic in London. One train even divided on a running line outside Ludgate Hill, with part going on to Hither Green and the detached portion fetched round smartish top Cannon Street.

[andyman7]

On 18/12/2019 at 19:20, Nearholmer said:

 

As to the later version of Smithfield Sidings: I think I remember them being there ....... I designed and oversaw the installation of a system to automatically swap the running rail connections from SR earth-free traction return to LM earthed return as trains passed in each direction when Thameslink first ran through, and “my” cabin full of contactors and relays was down there, but my dim recollection is that there were no electrified sidings to worry about.
 

I think there were two sidings, but even that I’m not totally certain about, and if they’d had CR connected to the SR system, or even running rails bonded to SR, they would certainly have been of concern to me at the time.

 

Maybe I’m just getting forgetful!

 

EDIT: Well, they certainly did exist, maybe still do! I just found a video on YouTube taken from a train reversing in them. But, what I can’t work out is whether they were/are on the site of the old LSWR sidings, or the trackbed of the old east curve.

 

Smithfield sidings are still there, on the site of the LSWR sidings (the trackbed of the east curve is long lost). They don't have any scheduled passenger moves but can still be used for 8 car 700s (not long enough for 12 car units).  There has been lots of building work around Smithfield that has obliterated much of the lost Victorian infrastructure but a few years back the start of the east curve could be spotted until new building rendered it invisible. Some of the tunnel survives as the basement of an adjacent building but the rest of the formation was lost when the Poultry market was rebuilt in 1958 after being destroyed by fire. The tunnel was temporarily exposed by the reconstruction but then filled in for the foundations of the 'new' Poultry market.

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

And all worked by 4-coupled engines of one sort or another, until S.W. Johnson managed to sneak his big (BIG!) 2441 Class condensing 0-6-0Ts in at the turn of the century 

 

 

I was unfair to Patrick Stirling there - the condensing version of his 0-6-0ST was at work on goods traffic over the widened lines from 1892.

[Nearholmer]

I’ve been trying to recall earlier threads covering similar ground, and this is one 

It includes some excellent detail of GWR workings, supplied by ‘Natalie’.

 

Going further west, and rather OT, this one:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107223-bishops-road-paddington-what-do-we-know/&tab=comments#comment-2167863

Edited December 20, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Lacathedrale]

On 20/12/2019 at 14:29, Tom Burnham said:

Looking west from Farringdon in 1971 (very much changed since, of course) - 

 

I've often wondered what that side of Farringon Looked like, with all the buildings/gantries over it.

 

Two questions: - did that headshunt/etc. ever do anything? It's always caught my eye as I go past on the Thameslink. What is the hole on the right hand side?