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Pre-Grouping train services across the Thames?


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No wonder the LBSCR looks to be merely “mid-table”: it’s a listing more notable for the huge number of railways that it omits than for those it includes ....... what are the criteria for inclusion/exclusion?  Being Welsh, Scots or Irish looks very like a reason for exclusion, for instance.

 

Yes.

Edited by Nearholmer
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10 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

here you go:

 

Some interesting figures there.  Possibly outwith the scope of this thread, but I was interested to see that while the SE&CR, LB&SCR and L&SWR all had very similar numbers of passengers, the SE&C was considerably ahead for first and second class passengers.  I'd always thought of the SE&C getting most of its passengers from the working-class industrial areas of North Kent, while the L&SW spread out into the more genteel Thames Valley...

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I think that 2nd Class was hung onto for longer on boat trains than elsewhere, to maintain alignment with services sur le continent, so we may be seeing the last dregs of 2nd class on domestic services, plus a significant ‘boat train affect’.

 

Of course, the LBSCR cheated mercilessly by having first and third class Pullmans as a key offering on expresses, and no loos anywhere else on its trains, so might be said to have had five classes in operation!

 

 

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10 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

My understanding (and the author goes to length to explain in detail) is that it is all pre-group railways which own trackage going into (and across) London.

 

Are these figures just for journeys in the London area? The Midland's high ranking is due to its acquisition of the LT&SR in 1912, which is said to have increased total passenger receipts bu a third, but I would still expect the LNWR's passenger receipts and passenger miles to outstrip the Midland's.

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Shots down in the Metropolitan Line extension are pretty rare, I'm informed this is a loco coming up the 1:39 gradient at Snow Hill towards Ludgate Hill - apprentley these open areas were used to try to brighten things up in what I believe Ahrons has described as 'Stygian abyss'. Presumably the GNR 0-6-2T or 0-6-0ST is at the back of this train, assisting from Farringdon St. up the incline.

 

image.png.e541149adb60b1aadd2bd77de556bab5.png

 

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12 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

Some interesting figures there.  Possibly outwith the scope of this thread, but I was interested to see that while the SE&CR, LB&SCR and L&SWR all had very similar numbers of passengers, the SE&C was considerably ahead for first and second class passengers.  I'd always thought of the SE&C getting most of its passengers from the working-class industrial areas of North Kent, while the L&SW spread out into the more genteel Thames Valley...

When the SER ordered new close-coupled trains in 1894 and 1896, and when the SECR ordered more of them in 1900/1901, they had noticeably more 1st and 2nd class compartments per train than equivalents on the GWR middle-circle or LNWR outer-circle trains.

 

I think at this time there was a ring of expensive property South of the Thames, roughly at the radius of Herne Hill.The SECR also had long-distance commuters from the south coast from a relatively early period. These would have been wealthy men aiming to be in the city by mid-morning, rather than minions showing up to work at 08:00.

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Another thing to contemplate is that the area around Charlton and Greenwich was a sort of Silicon Valley equivalent at the time, due to the international telegraphy and electric power industries based in the area, so that, plus the huge armaments factories around Woolwich, made for a first class clientele of businessmen and officers on the North Kent line. 

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If anyone reading this thread is interested, the latest issue of Backtrack has part one of a multi-part series on 'crossing london' and the Widened Lines. As far as I know the only shot that's not already available from image searching online is one of Holborn Viaduct of which I have produced a small cropping of in my layout thread. The remainder of the article however, appears to be very well written (though I imagine re-treading much of the wonderful information supplied in this thread already).

 

I took a journey on a section of the overground over the weekend that I've previously not encountered - Acton Central to Willesden Jct, to Gospel Oak and then onto the line towards Barking to Crouch End. I'll do my own research of course, but it does seem to have a very conjoined pre-group history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_London_line

 

The eastermost section created by what was a constituent of the GER, the southern section crossing the thames by the LSWR (south acton to Richmond), the NLR to Broad street and the subsequent electrification of the commuter route by the LNWR between Broad Street to Richmond. It also crossed what I suppose we could nominatively call a cross-london pre-group service in the Bakerloo!

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The Overground has made several interesting rail-rambles a lot easier, hasn't it? Must admit that I'm a wimp and tend to do those things when the weather is a bit more conducive to the walking bits that I like to include. You can always plan-in a lunch stop at the pub on the station at Kew Gardens.

 

Should this thread spread its wings to cover the river crossings on the ELR, WLER, Kew etc?

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In my mind this was always the remit of the thread, my OP talks about the lines from Kensington Olympia to Clapham Junction and down to Central Croydon - it's just that the Widened Lines and Metropolitan Extension are such rich pickings that they have been sidelined.

 

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On 02/01/2020 at 20:08, Lacathedrale said:

Shots down in the Metropolitan Line extension are pretty rare, I'm informed this is a loco coming up the 1:39 gradient at Snow Hill towards Ludgate Hill - apprentley these open areas were used to try to brighten things up in what I believe Ahrons has described as 'Stygian abyss'. Presumably the GNR 0-6-2T or 0-6-0ST is at the back of this train, assisting from Farringdon St. up the incline.

 

image.png.e541149adb60b1aadd2bd77de556bab5.png

 

 

Same spot in the modern era?

 

image.png.6363ddaa65f3772e4888a0e29fb21dfe.png

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My copy of 'London's Lost Railways' by Klapper has turned up, so I thought I'd add a few quick snaps:

 

Some LMS trains in East Croydon:

Am6a3dt.png

 

Also, the Midland running through Farringdon towards the Widened Lines:

3o0wxOt.png

 

 

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While looking for something else on the Midland Railway Study Centre catalogue, I came across copies of the 1 Nov 1868 "Agreement as to Running Powers and Interchange of Traffic" between the Midland and the London Chatham and Dover for working between Farringdon and Herne Hill and Long Hedge [sic], Study Centre Item No. 18792, and the 11 June 1874 agreement between the two companies for working to the Midland coal depots at Walworth Road and Battersea, Study Centre Item No. 18811. [For those links, note T&Cs.]

 

In the first agreement, para. 6 provides for the Midland to use the Longhedge route for transfer with other companies having junctions with the LDCR nearby - which I think would be both the South Western and the Brighton?

 

In the second agreement, para. 3 is, I think, an example of a "most favoured nation" clause, while para. 4 makes provision for further Midland coal depots in LCDR territory. 

 

One curiosity: in the 1868 agreement, the LCDR is referred to as "the Chatham Company" but in 1874 it is "the Dover Company".

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36 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

In the second agreement, para. 3 is, I think, an example of a "most favoured nation" clause, while para. 4 makes provision for further Midland coal depots in LCDR territory. 

For example at Maidstone (later Maidstone East) in 1882.

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Hmm. Interesting.

There was a direct connection between the Chatham and the West London Extension Railway at Clapham Junction, but the Midland wasn’t part of that consortium. It did connect with the LCDR via the widened lines, so maybe the coal got to it’s depot at Longhedge (when it was countryside - not that long ago, actually! - the area was occupied by Long Hedge Farm, so now you know)? Access was possible via Farringdon, Holborn Viaduct, then turn right (west, heading south) at Loughborough Junction to get to Stewart’s Lane Junction via Brixton.

As it happens, I was looking at an RCH map yesterday evening and wondering how the MR gained access to its coal depot.

spacer.png

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18 minutes ago, Regularity said:

There was a direct connection between the Chatham and the West London Extension Railway at Clapham Junction, but the Midland wasn’t part of that consortium. It did connect with the LCDR via the widened lines, so maybe the coal got to it’s depot at Longhedge (when it was countryside - not that long ago, actually! - the area was occupied by Long Hedge Farm, so now you know)? Access was possible via Farringdon, Holborn Viaduct, then turn right (west, heading south) at Loughborough Junction to get to Stewart’s Lane Junction via Brixton.

As it happens, I was looking at an RCH map yesterday evening and wondering how the MR gained access to its coal depot.

 

 

There is an MR map in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection, Item No. 20628, that I can't reproduce or link to here but shows Midland London area depots with their access routes from Brent sidings. It's dated 1912. For Wandsworth Road, two routes are shown:

  1. Midland to Acton Wells, North & South Western Junction to Kew, LSW to Lavender Hill Junction then SE&C (LC&D) to Battersea Wharf (according to your RCH diagram that involved running over a short length of the West London Extension, to which the SE&C was party);
  2. Midland to St Pancras Junction, Met to West St Junction, then SE&C (LC&D) to Battersea Wharf by the route you describe.
Edited by Compound2632
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25 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

For example at Maidstone (later Maidstone East) in 1882.

 

I should have said, provision for running powers to additional coal depots in LCDR territory - the wording of the agreement implies that that would include Maidstone but I'm pretty sure such running powers, if they existed, were never exercised! The LCDR would have worked the traffic from Herne Hill. There was probably a further inter-company agreement covering this. 

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50 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Were there any that didn't involve one or both of those two routes basic routes, which I've always thought of as the MR's "ways south"?

 

To the docks, via the joint line to Tottenham and then the Great Eastern through Stratford - straight on at Loughton Junction for Thames Wharf and Victoria Docks, or right then left at Bow Junction for Mint St, West India Dock, and Poplar.

 

Via the Widened Lines and the LCDR line then onto the SER line at Blackfriars Junction for Bricklayers Arms and Hither Green exchange sidings.

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15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There is an MR map in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection, Item No. 20628, that I can't reproduce or link to here but shows Midland London area depots with their access routes from Brent sidings. It's dated 1912. For Wandsworth Road, two routes are shown:

  1. Midland to Acton Wells, North & South Western Junction to Kew, LSW to Lavender Hill Junction then SE&C (LC&D) to Battersea Wharf (according to your RCH diagram that involved running over a short length of the West London Extension, to which the SE&C was party);
  2. Midland to St Pancras Junction, Met to West St Junction, then SE&C (LC&D) to Battersea Wharf by the route you describe.

 

Stephen, the SECR wasn't a part owner of the West London Extension, did it have running powers over that sliver of track at Longhedge?  Bill

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2 hours ago, bbishop said:

Stephen, the SECR wasn't a part owner of the West London Extension, did it have running powers over that sliver of track at Longhedge?  Bill

 

I misread the small print on the RCH Junction Diagram - it says LB&SC where I thought I saw SE&C! I suppose it must have done, since that bit of the WLE makes an end-on junction with a SE&C line. Is that bit of SE&C line curving round to Stewarts Lane Junction the line referred to in the 1874 agreement as "The Link Line"?

 

All the SE&C lines on that map are ex-LC&D. 

Edited by Compound2632
Forbes not Watkin!
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1 hour ago, bbishop said:

Stephen, the SECR wasn't a part owner of the West London Extension, did it have running powers over that sliver of track at Longhedge? 


Isn’t that slightly the wrong question in this context?

 

It would be the Midland, coming off the LSWR that would need to cross that potential “ransom strip”, and my surmise is that it was done under the cover of the LSWR.

 

Either that, or a load of tedious shuffling via Wandsworth Road.

 

I even wonder if the RCH plan is coloured incorrectly at that point, because the crossover is SECR-SECR, and of no use to the broader WLER scheme of things.
 

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

All the SE&C lines on that map are ex-SER. 

 

Que?

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