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Pre-Grouping train services across the Thames?


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I think we are looking at two separate lines with end on junctions:

LSWR and LCDR from Clapham Junction to Factory Junction 

WLE and LCDR from Latchmere  Junctions to Stewarts Lane Junction.   

The crossovers between these two lines just happened to be to the WLE side of the second line.

 

I think any use of the WLE would have been under the auspices of the LSWR.  Bill

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A Midland train to Wandsworth Road coal depot via Acton Wells turned east onto the LSWR at Kew Curve East Junction and at Clapham Junction took the LSWR curve to the end-on Junction with the SECR (LCDR) at Ludgate Junction. From there it ran via the aforementioned SECR (LCDR) curve to Stewarts Lane Junction to set back into the Midland depot. That's what the Midland map of 1912 I mentioned shows [Midland Railway Study Centre Item No. 20628]. RCH Juntion Diagrams re-posted for convenience.804559794_Acton_Kew_South_Acton__Turnham_Green_RJD_102.jpg.97b57e825a8dc276bde507802b8b9f84.jpg

54101536_Clapham_Junction_Stewarts_Lane_Lavender_Hill__Longhedge_RJD_17.jpg.8ddb4a104ad9cb84005069c3f2ae8463.jpg

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I'm not sure how things stand right now, but the Dudding Hill Loop, the route for these trains from Brent towards Acton, was still last time I looked about a year ago a very retro section of line, with LMS semaphore signals.

 

The coal trains to the Kensington Depots came the same way, turning-off to go through Turnham Green and onto the District, and for a very short time in C19th there was a St Pancras to Earl's Court passenger service.

 

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34 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The coal trains to the Kensington Depots came the same way, turning-off to go through Turnham Green and onto the District, 

 

Yes, the Midland map I mentioned is very clear in showing the route to be the Metropolitan District or southern pair of lines from Turnham Green, not the northern LSWR lines - though the history of that 75 ch section being LSWR property is beyond me.

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The line was originally the LSWR Addison Road to Richmond Branch, with the District only coming as far as its terminus at Hammersmith, then a link was built to allow services from the District to Richmond, then the District extended westwards through Acton Town, and eventually the LSWR gave up on its service during WW1. I'm not sure when it all got vested in LT, possibly not until the BTC was established in 1948.

 

The whole area is fascinating from a passenger services point of view as much as goods, because the GWR ran over the LSWR route too at some dates, later the Met. instead, but a trainspotter would have been even better off at Gunnersbury, because that had the NLR on top.

 

There were strange short-distance shuttles operated by the LSWR using the various curves in the Kew area too - Gunnersbury to Brentford was one IIRC - which is where they tested railmotors and push-pulls.

 

Bit OT, sorry! Just that one of my "pipe dream" layouts is Kew Gardens c1906, when the District had electrified, but it still had a mass of steam services from the LSWR, Met, GWR (who were back again by then), and NLR. About thirty trains an hour, from five companies, through what was still a semi-rural wayside station. Its still a nice little station now, with a pub on the platform yet a very busy service of trains. Read all about it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kew_Gardens_station_(London)#History

Edited by Nearholmer
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18 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Its still a nice little station now, with a pub on the platform yet a very busy service of trains. 

 

One of the delights of visiting the National Archives.

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The NA itself is on land that was once part of the market-garden estates of the Pouparts family, who got a junction named after their orchards near the other end of this discussion - part of their gardens at Kew were served by a narrow gauge tramway. Which is even further OT!

 

(Edited because there were several generations of Pouparts in the market gardening business simultaneously - their firm is still going I think.)

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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I've now also found a short-lived Midland Railway passenger service to Richmond, from Moorgate via Cricklewood. This must have been what served Dudding Hill for the year(?) that it was a passenger station.

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15 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I've now also found a short-lived Midland Railway passenger service to Richmond, from Moorgate via Cricklewood. This must have been what served Dudding Hill for the year(?) that it was a passenger station.

 

Midland Railway Study Centre Item No. 0877: "Midland Railway handbill for Opening of the Cricklewood & Acton Branch connecting the Midland & London & South Western Railways, And affording a New Route between Moorgate Street & Richmond. On Tuesday, August 3rd (1875), The Cricklewood and Acton Branch will be Opened for Passenger Traffic ... Details of the timetable are given."

Unfortunately the photo on the online catalogue is not sharp enough to read the timetable!

I wonder what the journey time was? It seems to take forever to get to central London from Richmond via the District Line - I tried it once for fun and ever after went straight up to Waterloo or onto the tube at Vauxhall.

Edited by Compound2632
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Disused Stations says Dudding Hill was open for passengers on and off until 1902. The Moorgate-Richmond service lasted five months, being replaced by a shuttle between Cricklewood and Harrow Road (Stonebridge Park). In May 1878 a St Pancras - Earls Court service was tried, which lasted until the end of September 1880. The shuttle service was resumed but finally petered out at the end of June 1888.  Another attempt was made in March 1893 with a Cricklewood - Stonebridge Park shuttle, extended to Gunnersbury in January 1894. This staggered on into the 20th century but the station closed for good at the end of September 1902.

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9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

seems to take forever to get to central London from Richmond via the District Line


The test on journey time has traditionally been how long it takes to get to The City and The District is competitive with going via Waterloo, and doesn’t involve changing.

 

The routeS that really got beaten were the NLR to Broad Street, and the Met/GWR via Bishops Road.

 

Its a bit different now, because travel patterns are more dispersed - getting to Canary Wharf is important for instance.

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I look after documents on behalf of the South Western Circle and one of them is an original 1922 RCH Junction Diagrams, so delicate that I had to write notes on my bed and transcribe them downstairs.  The advantage is that it includes running powers.   The MR had running powers on the LSWR and Metropolitan District from Acton Junction to access the West Kensington and High Street Kensington coal depots.  

The running powers on the LSWR from Lavender Hill Junction to Clapham Junction was for Coaching stock only.  This means the MR had no running powers between Acton Junction and Clapham Junction.  So I think coal traffic would have travelled Widened Lines to West Street Junction, SECR via Loughborough Junction, Factory Junction, to Stewarts Lane Junction and then reverse to the depot.  Running powers all the way.  Bill

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Interesting!

 

The route may still have been as Compound stated, because this might boil down to the difference between running powers, a set of legally enforceable rights, and running agreements, effectively a set of privileges or contracted arrangements.

 

There were many examples of friendly railways allowing inter-running by arrangement. For instance, I believe (STC) that two cross-river passenger services to Croydon operated by arrangement rather than ‘powers’: LNWR from Willesden Junction, and GER from Liverpool Street.

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1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

The route may still have been as Compound stated, because this might boil down to the difference between running powers, a set of legally enforceable rights, and running agreements, effectively a set of privileges or contracted arrangements.

 

Well, running powers or not, it's the route shown on the MR map!

 

The agreements between the Midland and the Chatham that I linked to are just that, a mutually beneficial agreements for working the traffic, not the exercise of running powers legal granted by Act of Parliament.

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On 11/12/2019 at 07:53, Compound2632 said:

 

The Midland Carriage Marshalling book for October 1922 (a bit after the period of interest, I know) shows sets of carriages on circuits variously out and back from St Pancras / "City" (Moorgate) and East Ham / Woodgrange Park / Barking all via Kentish Town, so for this date I think not the Midland for Gospel Oak. 

 

The Wikipedia article gives the impression that the Highgate Road Junction - Gospel Oak section,opened in 1888, was moribund for most of the line's history, closing completely in 1926. The modern Gospel Oak - Barking service dates from 1981, replacing that via Kentish Town.

 

I've found the photo I mentioned of the Gobbler at St. Pancras - No. 797. before 1907 [Midland Railway Society Journal No. 55 (Summer 2014)]. There's a follow-up comment in the next issue [Mo. 56 (Autumn 2014)] from Charles Philips, stating that there were two services such an engine could have worked: St Pancras - Hertford GE; and St Pancras - Tottenham Hale in connection with Cambridge line trains - this in addition to the GE Cambridge expresses using St Pancras. He also mentions that St Pancras was the station for royal journeys to Sandringham and for race day trains to Newmarket - separating out the West End nobs from the bookmakers and general hoi-polloi who would presumably have travelled down from the City and East End via Liverpool Street.

There was a throw-away reference to Royal trains out of St Pancras the other night on the 'railway architecture' series now airing, when they visited Wolferton. Fortunately I had recently re-read this thread, so thank you Compound2632 for stopping me muttering 'Liverpool Shtreet, shurely' and being exposed as an idiot!

 

In fairness, I don't know that using St Pancras rather than Liverpool Street was primarily about avoiding hoi polloi - the idea of the King-Emperor's carriage trying to navigate City of London traffic would have given Special Branch nightmares. Horsedrawn omnibuses, hansom cabs, etc plus all the commercial traffic: Billingsgate, Smithfield, Covent Garden going full strength, and all the stuff hauling out of the Pool of London and St Katherine Dock. All those big carriage wheels to interlock, and you just need one horse to be flogged dead, as they were... Majesty could be stuck for hours, a sitting target for the Fenians or the anarcho-syndicalists. 

 

Plus, of course, he'd need permission to enter the City from the Lord Mayor, so that probably means parades and bands and speeches. No, St Pancras is a much better plan.

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6 minutes ago, lanchester said:

In fairness, I don't know that using St Pancras rather than Liverpool Street was primarily about avoiding hoi polloi 

 

Even for lesser mortals St Pancras had advantages - the Great Eastern was using it as their West End terminus, rather going against the tide of companies such as the Great Western and South Western struggling to serve the City. The North Western had Broad Street and both the Midland and Great Northern had Moorgate. The Brighton, Chatham, and South Eastern all had both City and West End termini.

 

For Queen Victoria's funeral, the Brighton route from Portsmouth was chosen because Victoria was closer to Paddington (for Windsor) than was Waterloo, hence a shorter procession. 

Edited by Compound2632
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The Great Eastern also used St. Pancras for Royal Trains, as Liverpool Street is within the City of London and the sovereign cannot visit without a load of ceremonial nonsense.

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3 hours ago, Regularity said:

The Great Eastern also used St. Pancras for Royal Trains, as Liverpool Street is within the City of London and the sovereign cannot visit without a load of ceremonial nonsense.

 

That's what @lanchester was saying...

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38 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's what @lanchester was saying...

In which case I was at least agreeing with him, but also adding a little more to it...

 

In return for more money, the City of London gained more and more privileges from the Crown over the centuries, to the extent that the Crown can only enter the City by formal invitation.

It’s not really about parades, bands and speeches, but about the City of London’s historic status and fiercely upheld independence. Hence, it has its own police force, etc.

This is also part of the differentiation between London, major world city, and the City of London, major world financial centre. (For a while longer.)

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Back to my obsession with the Acton/Gunnersbury/Kew area:

 

Service routes and destinations were forever wriggling about, but looking in 1910 Bradshaw I've realised that the Richmond-Addison Road service at that date continued not to Waterloo, but to Ludgate Hill, via the very route that we've been discussing w.r.t. coal trains.

 

So, can I nominate this as one of the "most cross river" services, with three crossings?

 

It might be beaten by the GWR Victoria - Addison Road - Windsor trains, which it might even have passed as they crossed the river, which crossed at Grosvenor, Chelsea, and two arms of the river between Slough and Windsor.

 

Were there any suburban passenger routes that crossed the river more than four times?

 

All very "Three Men in a Boat".

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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On 25/06/2020 at 17:08, Nearholmer said:

I'm not sure how things stand right now, but the Dudding Hill Loop, the route for these trains from Brent towards Acton, was still last time I looked about a year ago a very retro section of line, with LMS semaphore signals.

 

And Bollo Lane Junction, the other side of South Acton, retained a disused L&SWR signal box at least until 18 months ago.  Very complicated lot of railways in that area, it seems to me as a (former) SE London resident...

100_7310 (Small).JPG

Edited by Tom Burnham
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23 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Back to my obsession with the Acton/Gunnersbury/Kew area:

 

Service routes and destinations were forever wriggling about, but looking in 1910 Bradshaw I've realised that the Richmond-Addison Road service at that date continued not to Waterloo, but to Ludgate Hill, via the very route that we've been discussing w.r.t. coal trains.

 

I have read 'LSWR in the Twentieth Century' and  the LSWR services were improved in 1902 to become 15 from Waterloo, 10 from Ludgate Hill and 15 from Clapham Junction.  The service was decimated by the Metropolitan District electrification and for local journeys by the electric trams, and finally ceased on 5 June 1916.  The War Office requested the retention of Addison Road to Studland Road Junction for troop movements and the track was lifted after 1926.

 

Answering an earlier question, the line from Studland Road Junction to Turnham Green was transferred to the Underground group for the Piccadilly line extension, so before July 1932.  

 

I occasionally used the Kenny Belle between Clapham Junction and Olympia in the mid 1970s.

 

Bill

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On 25/06/2020 at 17:45, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, the Midland map I mentioned is very clear in showing the route to be the Metropolitan District or southern pair of lines from Turnham Green, not the northern LSWR lines - though the history of that 75 ch section being LSWR property is beyond me.

 

This map is now available for inspection / download [subject to the T&Cs] on the Midland Railway Study Centre website - it forms the RH panel of the long plan of the main line from Silksteam Junction to St Pancras / Moorgate - scroll right down to near the bottom of the webpage.

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