Clerestory coaches

[phil gollin]

Hornby presently offer two types of GWR clerestory coaches, the very old Tri-ang ones (R4913 / R4914 )  and the later Hornby ones ( R4899 / R4900 ).

 

The Tri-ang ones are rather coarse and have been discussed in another thread here as suitable for butchery to produce various types of pre-grouping non-bogie coaches.

 

I am more interested in the later "Hornby" ones.   Are these accurate, and if so what diagram, at which date, do these represent ?

 

Also, with reference to pre-grouping coaches do these even vaguely resemble clerestory coaches from other companies ?  ( I.E. is there a chance for Hornby to produce these in other liveries which would be "close enough" ? )

 

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[cctransuk]

7 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

... I.E. is there a chance for Hornby to produce these in other liveries which would be "close enough" ? ). 

 

 

They have already done so - Midland Railway springs to mind.

 

The trouble is - regardless of livery - the distinctive panelling is merely printed onto a plain-sided body.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

Hornby presently offer two types of GWR clerestory coaches, the very old Tri-ang ones (R4913 / R4914 )  and the later Hornby ones ( R4899 / R4900 ).

 

The Tri-ang ones are rather coarse and have been discussed in another thread here as suitable for butchery to produce various types of pre-grouping non-bogie coaches.

 

I am more interested in the later "Hornby" ones.   Are these accurate, and if so what diagram, at which date, do these represent ?

 

Also, with reference to pre-grouping coaches do these even vaguely resemble clerestory coaches from other companies ?  ( I.E. is there a chance for Hornby to produce these in other liveries which would be "close enough" ? )

 

. 

 

 

 

 

 

Hornby have in the past had them in LMS  - all pics from Google not mine.

 

The GWR Clerestory is labelled as a D29 diagram, it is based on a real GWR coach as below.

 

The other older Triang style has been done in LMS and LNER teak liveries.

 

[Edwardian]

The later Hornby coaches are based on specific GWR diagrams, the van third, as mentioned, and a 2nd/3rd comp, later all third.

 

Their real weakness, which makes them, IMHO, far less useful than the old Triangs, is that Hornby, in what I can only assume was a moment of mental aberration, neglected to included moulded beading/recessed panels. 

 

Bettabitz made replacement brass sides that included the missing panel detail, though these were such a s*d to fit that, really, starting from scratch seemed the better option! 

 

I have tried, but I cannot love these coaches, and they have outlived whatever use they might once have had; another candidate for the recycling bin of history.

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Edwardian
spelling!

[A Murphy]

I completely agree with Edwardian's post above. Two questions. Is there an opportunity for a person much cleverer than myself to laser cut the missing beading/frames? This technology (laser cutting) seems to have come on in leaps and bounds......

 

Second question is, isn't it about time one of the major manufacturers got their act together to replace the Hornby clerestories? Hornby & Bachmann between them make the Star (the Saint can't be far away can it?), Castle, Hall, King, Grange, Manor, County, 61xx, County, City yadda, yadda every single one of which would have pulled clerestories at some point in their (long) lives.

 

Thanks,

 

Alastair M

[Edwardian]

I agree.

 

I have, on occasion, raised the suggestion that someone with a Silhouette cutter could produce a beading layer to rescue these coaches.

 

For the lined chocolate and cream livery, this could even be done in black styrene.  The very (!) careful might thereby avoid a full repaint!

 

Obviously no one out there with this facility who may have read this suggestion has the required interest in these prototypes. If anyone does ...

[Skinnylinny]

I had a look at producing laser-cut beading for the sides, but they'd need all the raised detail (hinges, door handles and grab irons) sanding off, and then after the overlay was put on, all those details plus lining putting back on again... I decided that for my purposes it was more work than I was prepared to do!

What's very curious is that Hornby have moulded the panelling on the ends!

Edited October 30, 2019 by Skinnylinny

[DCB]

I expect Hornby have a product cheapening department like we used to accuse British Leyland of having constantly striving to make the product worse.  Luckily I have several Triang Clestories and some Thomas range 4 wheel bodies so I reckon I can cobble up some early BR era departmental vehicles from them. Luckily they will be plain Red or Black, as I have yet to find a paint to match Bachmann/ Hornby etc maroon. and if I do matching their lining is beyond me.

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Hornby have in the past had them in LMS  - all pics from Google not mine.

 

The GWR Clerestory is labelled as a D29 diagram, it is based on a real GWR coach as below.

 

The other older Triang style has been done in LMS and LNER teak liveries.

 

And in BR crimson/cream with a B12 in a train set; these turn up on ‘Bay sometimes.  

Edited October 30, 2019 by The Johnster

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

19 minutes ago, A Murphy said:

...Second question is, isn't it about time one of the major manufacturers got their act together to replace the Hornby clerestories?...

That ship has sailed as far as production in China is concerned, in my opinion. Elaborate tooling for the panelling and beading of both body and clerestory sides,  and correspondingly elaborate mask tooling for the livery and lining application passes, it all pushes tooling and production costs up. As a good 'wet finger' estimate of the likely price point: midway between the typical current production bogie coach and the one modern standard model of a clerestory coach (RoS/Rapido LNER dynamometer car) that we have in RTR OO; and that will not sell in volume.

 

Be ready to float the idea when MR production moves to the next low cost economic development location, catch the opportunity to get difficult subjects tooled and produced while it is still relatively cheap to do so.

[The Johnster]

These seriously need retooling if they are to be taken seriously, H having proved themselves more than capable of this in 1961 with the Triang shorty clerestories.  

 

I believe some of these coaches were plated in their later lives, a simple repaint job

[woodenhead]

13 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

These seriously need retooling if they are to be taken seriously, H having proved themselves more than capable of this in 1961 with the Triang shorty clerestories.  

 

I believe some of these coaches were plated in their later lives, a simple repaint job

Eh - the 1961 shorties with the Mk1 B1 coach bogies

 

They only have two purposes - something for the kids to run or something to cut up as a scratch aid.

 

There are replacement bogies for both types of Clerestory available in 3D prints via Shapeways that also have NEM sockets too.

[The Johnster]

Sorry, mea culpa, I meant that the later Triang Hornby clerestories were plated.  The shorties had B1 bogies which were the correct length; they can be converted to ersatz Deans by removing the tiebar and gluing footboards.  They can be cut’n’shut into acceptable models; both are a compartment short, but are in truth another retooling candidate. 

 

Mine have been worked up with interiors and new buffers, a repaint, and will one day have proper bogies from Stafford Road/Shapeways. 

[Steamport Southport]

Mental aberration?

 

No, they are and always were toys made for kids. Just like the 4-4-0s with smoke which they were designed to go with. Only of use to those who would use generic carriages....

 

 

 

Jason

[Edwardian]

On 30/10/2019 at 13:00, Skinnylinny said:

I had a look at producing laser-cut beading for the sides, but they'd need all the raised detail (hinges, door handles and grab irons) sanding off, and then after the overlay was put on, all those details plus lining putting back on again... I decided that for my purposes it was more work than I was prepared to do!

What's very curious is that Hornby have moulded the panelling on the ends!

 

I hadn't realised you'd looked at this.

 

Good point about the ends.   Suggests was another prototypically illiterate muppet design, or, as suggested, the Cheapening Department.

 

On 30/10/2019 at 13:05, DavidCBroad said:

I expect Hornby have a product cheapening department like we used to accuse British Leyland of having constantly striving to make the product worse.  Luckily I have several Triang Clestories and some Thomas range 4 wheel bodies so I reckon I can cobble up some early BR era departmental vehicles from them. Luckily they will be plain Red or Black, as I have yet to find a paint to match Bachmann/ Hornby etc maroon. and if I do matching their lining is beyond me.

 

All too believable.

 

To be fair, that was then and recently Hornby's output has been generally excellent. 

 

On 30/10/2019 at 13:58, The Johnster said:

Sorry, mea culpa, I meant that the later Triang Hornby clerestories were plated.  The shorties had B1 bogies which were the correct length; they can be converted to ersatz Deans by removing the tiebar and gluing footboards.  They can be cut’n’shut into acceptable models; both are a compartment short, but are in truth another retooling candidate. 

 

Mine have been worked up with interiors and new buffers, a repaint, and will one day have proper bogies from Stafford Road/Shapeways. 

 

My humble efforts ...

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Edwardian

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

To be fair, that was then and recently Hornby's output has been generally excellent.  There is an obvious exception, but I'll move on ... 

 

 

I think this is another example of Hornby exploiting potential new models with their own interpretations: The 92, 66, Terrier (albeit a new model).

 

Hornby could see people asking for clerestorys so they provided some by reintroducing the models with no modification i.e. nem sockets or proper bogies.

[tomparryharry]

By introducing the short clerestories, Hornby are seeing off the perceived competition from Hattons, et al, with the generic coaches. Sure, the purists are having the screaming add-dabbs, but there are lots of modellers on here whom regard the clerestory as a springboard into making something worthwhile. 

 

Seeing as the original tooling was worked up in 1961, that's about  58 years in existence. I can only think of another set of tooling that old, and that is the oil cap retaining strap from the poriginal Morris Minor, all the way down to the last of the Longbridge  Rover cars. There must be something that appeals to us, otherwise there wouldn't be so many of these coaches on 'bay.

 

I've just bought 2, for some serious modification  bashing.....

 

Cheers,

Ian.

 

 

[Edwardian]

11 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

By introducing the short clerestories, Hornby are seeing off the perceived competition from Hattons, et al, with the generic coaches. Sure, the purists are having the screaming add-dabbs, but there are lots of modellers on here whom regard the clerestory as a springboard into making something worthwhile. 

 

Seeing as the original tooling was worked up in 1961, that's about  58 years in existence. I can only think of another set of tooling that old, and that is the oil cap retaining strap from the poriginal Morris Minor, all the way down to the last of the Longbridge  Rover cars. There must be something that appeals to us, otherwise there wouldn't be so many of these coaches on 'bay.

 

I've just bought 2, for some serious modification  bashing.....

 

Cheers,

Ian.

 

 

 

Not sure who these Screaming Purists we're always hearing about actually are!  Most of us will buy these for the joy of cutting them up (assuming we run out of old stock!)

[Coach bogie]

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

The later Hornby coaches are based on specific GWR diagrams, the van third, as mentioned, and a 2nd/3rd comp, later all third.

 

Bettabitz made replacement brass sides that included the missing panel detail, though these were such a s*d to fit that, really, starting from scratch seemed the better option!

 

 

The Bettabitz sides were introduced more than 30 years ago and are of the time. Personally, I do not find them that much of a chore to use. My real gripe is that Bettabitz followed Hornby with the C15 producing a window layout that had gone before 1910 and of little use to most modellers. I have just bought two of the latest issue brakes thirds, from Peters spares and brought them up to date using etches from Worsley works for a D33 that are an exact fit. They also have some of the panels, plated over and look outs removed, making it suitable for late 1920's and 30's era. You can make up the sides first, paint them on the bench and fix them to the Hornby last. I have a second set of sides ready to go on, the second I bought. It will only take an evening to prepare and fit.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

[The Johnster]

I suspect that seeing off the Hatton’s was not on the radar when H reintroduced the shortys, and is fortuitous; Hatton’s are clearly unimpressed and are going ahead with theirs anyway.  More likely IMHO Simon K looked at the prices the shortys were going for on ‘Bay, and thought ‘I’m ‘avin some of that’; the thing must have been redacted for nearly half a century and the margins must’ve looked attractive. 

 

BTW the numbers of shortys offered on ‘Bay could equally suggest that they actually aren’t that attractive if so many people want rid of ‘em!

 

The conversion of a Triang shorty

clerestory into something less toylike has been a rite of passage for modellers for donkey’s, and there is a lot to be learned from them.  It is only fairly recently that anything comparable has been available RTR.  Neither Triang or it’s successors have ever attempted the fully lined out Dean livery!  

 

 

[tomparryharry]

6 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Not sure who these Screaming Purists we're always hearing about actually are!  Most of us will buy these for the joy of cutting them up (assuming we run out of old stock!)

 

Well, whenever I look at the writings relating towards the clerestories, there are copious references to the coaches being too short, too long, too narrow, too tall, wrong colour, and just about everything else. Otherwise, guilty as charged. My 'victims' will hopefullylook not too bad once they're finished. 

[phil gollin]

9 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

........  Luckily I have several Triang Clestories and some Thomas range 4 wheel bodies so I reckon I can cobble up some early BR era departmental vehicles from them. Luckily they will be plain Red or Black, ...........

.

 

Already done, by Tri-Ang ;

 

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2Fimages%2Fg%2FFr8AAOSw7aNclhCW%2Fs-l300.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2FTRIANG-R620-BR-BLACK-ENGINEERING-DEPT-CLERESTORY-COACH-20-MINT-BOXED-ns-%2F372710493553&tbnid=OZg1rncaNiRMCM&vet=12ahUKEwjd57bQhcXlAhVH0RoKHXa-DZAQMygIegUIARDcAQ..i&docid=gH0Iji1KuSIdmM&w=300&h=200&itg=1&q=R620 triang clerestory&ved=2ahUKEwjd57bQhcXlAhVH0RoKHXa-DZAQMygIegUIARDcAQ

 

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2Fimages%2Fg%2FiRYAAOSwk1Bcmfy4%2Fs-l300.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fitm%2FTRIANG-Hornby-R620-BR-GREEN-ENGINEERING-DEPT-CLERESTORY-COACH-20-BOXED-ns-%2F362597172268&tbnid=l3uhrnzrSlUBaM&vet=12ahUKEwjd57bQhcXlAhVH0RoKHXa-DZAQMygAegUIARDMAQ..i&docid=yJAT8sBreOBi6M&w=300&h=200&itg=1&q=R620 triang clerestory&ved=2ahUKEwjd57bQhcXlAhVH0RoKHXa-DZAQMygAegUIARDMAQ

 

 

( I can remember the black one, but not the green one ! )

 

Also, the moulds for the Liverpool and Manchester coaches to match The Rocket might still be around  -  the ultimate in "pre-grouping".

 

 

 

 

.

 

[GWR-fan]

Personally,  I see nothing wrong with the longer clerestory coaches.  I have over twenty from the various train packs,  like the 1908 Olympic livery, Western Troop pack, Flying Dutchman,  GWR 100 year pack, etc., plus standalone models released as single units and see them as a well applied livery which would be very expensive and difficult to reproduce.  I do not miss the panelling or the oversize couplers and see the coach as a representation of an older body style.   I would never even consider changing the couplers or modifying the body sides to be more period correct as life is too short for most of us other than the few officiandos who demand scale fidelity from a body tooled back in the 1980's.  These people even complained that the Rails dynamometer car was inaccurate at GBP125.00.  How much do these "experts" want the average guy to pay per coach so that the few are able to find no fault?    I feel that the majority are more than happy enough with the current versions and that if the experts want the ultimate in scale fidelity then they can commission a model for themselves and let the rest of us access a reasonable model at a reasonable price,  albeit with its known faults.

[Neal Ball]

12 hours ago, Coach bogie said:

The Bettabitz sides were introduced more than 30 years ago and are of the time. Personally, I do not find them that much of a chore to use. My real gripe is that Bettabitz followed Hornby with the C15 producing a window layout that had gone before 1910 and of little use to most modellers. I have just bought two of the latest issue brakes thirds, from Peters spares and brought them up to date using etches from Worsley works for a D33 that are an exact fit. They also have some of the panels, plated over and look outs removed, making it suitable for late 1920's and 30's era. You can make up the sides first, paint them on the bench and fix them to the Hornby last. I have a second set of sides ready to go on, the second I bought. It will only take an evening to prepare and fit.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

That looks great Mike.

 

Presumably you gave scratch built the under frame detail.

[tomparryharry]

On 30/10/2019 at 22:41, tomparryharry said:

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by tomparryharry
Post deleted:- Not helpful