Jump to content
 

Clerestory coaches


phil gollin
 Share

Recommended Posts

20 hours ago, The Johnster said:

These seriously need retooling if they are to be taken seriously, H having proved themselves more than capable of this in 1961 with the Triang shorty clerestories.  

 

I believe some of these coaches were plated in their later lives, a simple repaint job

The fact that these coaches are regularly reissued suggests that retooling, from Hornbys perspective, is not needed, since they are very good sellers. 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

Personally,  I see nothing wrong with the longer clerestory coaches.  I have over twenty from the various train packs,  like the 1908 Olympic livery, Western Troop pack, Flying Dutchman,  GWR 100 year pack, etc., plus standalone models released as single units and see them as a well applied livery which would be very expensive and difficult to reproduce.  I do not miss the panelling or the oversize couplers and see the coach as a representation of an older body style.   I would never even consider changing the couplers or modifying the body sides to be more period correct as life is too short for most of us other than the few officiandos who demand scale fidelity from a body tooled back in the 1980's.  These people even complained that the Rails dynamometer car was inaccurate at GBP125.00.  How much do these "experts" want the average guy to pay per coach so that the few are able to find no fault?    I feel that the majority are more than happy enough with the current versions and that if the experts want the ultimate in scale fidelity then they can commission a model for themselves and let the rest of us access a reasonable model at a reasonable price,  albeit with its known faults.

 

But wouldn't you want an accurate model for a fair price?

 

Looking at the RRP these aren't exactly cheap. Even from the so called "box shifters" they are £33.50 as opposed to the Bachmann Birdcage stock which are currently not much more. £42 in Hattons and elsewhere.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/430545/hornby_r4900_clerestory_brake_third_corridor_3403_in_gwr_chocolate_and_cream/stockdetail.aspx

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/60790/bachmann_branchline_39_602_60_ex_secr_birdcage_brake_third_lavatory_s3500s_in_br_crimson/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

Time for a new version I'm afraid and consign these to history. They weren't even any good in the 1980s at the time when Mainline was making models such as the BR Restaurant Buffet which still stands up to scrutiny now.

 

 

 

Jason

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

But wouldn't you want an accurate model for a fair price?

 

Looking at the RRP these aren't exactly cheap. Even from the so called "box shifters" they are £33.50 as opposed to the Bachmann Birdcage stock which are currently not much more. £42 in Hattons and elsewhere.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/430545/hornby_r4900_clerestory_brake_third_corridor_3403_in_gwr_chocolate_and_cream/stockdetail.aspx

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/60790/bachmann_branchline_39_602_60_ex_secr_birdcage_brake_third_lavatory_s3500s_in_br_crimson/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

Time for a new version I'm afraid and consign these to history. They weren't even any good in the 1980s at the time when Mainline was making models such as the BR Restaurant Buffet which still stands up to scrutiny now.

 

 

 

Jason

I agree these do appear over priced for what they are, I got mine for £20 last year which I feel is a fair price for a railroad coach.

 

The Triang shorties are only £16 and that is a very good price I feel.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
3 hours ago, Denbridge said:

The fact that these coaches are regularly reissued suggests that retooling, from Hornbys perspective, is not needed, since they are very good sellers. 

And if they were retooled with the panelling properly represented, so that they could be sold in a greater variety of later liveries, they’d be even better sellers, admittedly pricier though. 

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

And if they were retooled with the panelling properly represented, so that they could be sold in a greater variety of later liveries, they’d be even better sellers, admittedly pricier though. 

But whilst they keep selling these at almost full fat prices (£40+) and people are buying then they will continue to take the cash as tooling will have paid for itself several times over.

 

Maybe Hornby have insight into someone else looking at Clerestory and they are doing their now usual thing with models in their inventory (and there is nothing wrong in that, they have to make money after all).

  • Like 2
  • Agree 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

The Siphon G is the old Lima tooling, and was pretty good so far as the body goes, but hopeless below the solebar, a general complaint about Lima stuff.  A retooling or an alternative with the correct bogies and underframe detail to modern standards would be very welcome!

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

You done a good job with those Barry, they tart up nicely.

 

11 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

The long clerestories can be tarted up if desired, without too much work. I think they can then be made into acceptable "layout coaches", to use a Tony Wright term.

 

The more recent printing technique gives a bit of relief to the panelling, not as flat as when they were originally released. (Incidentally, the pre-production shots did indeed show full moulded panelling, but presumably this was dropped due to the difficulty of putting the paint on, using 1980s methods). The main problem is that the lining is still simplified, so needs the black adding, and the droplights and bolections painted dark red.

 

The centre coach here is a Mallard kit, sandwiched between two upgraded clerestories:

 

clerestory2.jpg

 

The coaches can also be improved by reworking the bogies (opening them out to remove plastic where it shouldn't be), and replacing the corridor bellows, adding end handrails etc.

 

clerestory1.jpg

 

Reworked lining and droplights:

 

clerestory3.jpg

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
On 30/10/2019 at 11:50, phil gollin said:

 

Also, with reference to pre-grouping coaches do these even vaguely resemble clerestory coaches from other companies ? 

 

 

On 30/10/2019 at 11:59, cctransuk said:

 

They have already done so - Midland Railway springs to mind.

 

 

A Screaming Purist writes - or attempts to do so - it's difficult to be coherent whilst in the throes of apoplexy: both the old Triang short clerestories and the Hornby long clerestories have been produced in an approximation to Midland livery. However, the shape of the Midland clerestory is so very different that these cannot pass. The Great Western clerestory sits atop a 3-arc roof of rather flat profile; the Midland version has a much more round-shouldered lower roof. The other large user of clerestory carriages was the North Eastern but in their version, both lower and clerestory roofs were a plain arc.

 

I have seen the Triang clerestories used to make very acceptable models of longer non-corridor diagrams, notably on the EM layout Westcliff. It was with some trepidation that I asked if these rather magnificent models were Triang bashes! One point of weakness compared to more sophisticated kits is that the Triang panelling doesn't properly represent the bolection mouldings of the fixed quarter-lights - but compared to the complete lack of beading on the Hornby clerestories that might be regarded as a minor point!

 

 

Edited by Compound2632
  • Agree 1
  • Friendly/supportive 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 30/10/2019 at 13:05, DavidCBroad said:

I expect Hornby have a product cheapening department like we used to accuse British Leyland of having constantly striving to make the product worse...

 

Its usually some damn under-manager in product-development-accounting who looks at a proposed design and says "If we don't do X, we'll save Y per item" so it can go on their CV as "I saved Z in producing a range of toys at Hornby", thus aiding them as they swarm up the greasy pole of their career.

 

On 30/10/2019 at 13:17, The Johnster said:

And in BR crimson/cream with a B12 in a train set; these turn up on ‘Bay sometimes.  

 

 The "LNER Teak" ones also appeared in a train set, the alleged "Mainline Steam" set also including a B12/3.  Both B12s were the last hurrah of the Triang mouldings, made in China with a better chassis and "finer" wheels and coupling rods, though still lightyears away from the current B12/3 models.

 

The one thing in favour of the long Clerestories is, despite their lack of physical moulded detail, they'll still look better than the shorties behind the equally venerable Triang based moulding of the Achilles class Dean Single that Hornby are re-releasing towards the end of this year!

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, gwrrob said:

Hornby are doing the same with the GWR siphon g but I'm hoping one of the new kids on the block take a punt and do a 21st Century version.

But here's the thing, given Hornby's demonstrated approach of 'we will compete aggressively with amortised or new tooling if you try it on with our core range' whether it is a class 66, 14xx, King, Terrier, Large Prairie. Why would a competitor expose themselves to that? The last thing to offer is GWR clerestory coaches, when there are a plenitude of subject alternatives available for large and popularly modelled areas elsewhere in the UK.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
3 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

 when there are a plenitude of subject alternatives available for large and popularly modelled areas elsewhere in the UK.

 

You mean there are other companies other than God's Wonderful then.;)

  • Funny 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

The counter argument to that is that, while there are many worthwhile and potentially popular and profitable options for large and popularly modelled areas and periods elsewhere in the UK, the GW remains very popular indeed, and Dean era panelled clerestory and other coaches were common and widespread throughout the company’s pre WW2 existence, and not that rare post war either. 

 

No RTR model of any of them has ever been produced which combines scale size with moulded panelling, no plain roofed Dean stock has ever been produced, and the incorrect length Triang shorties have never been available with correct bogies, anything but the most crude underframe detail, interiors, or the lined out livery to match the Dean Single that was intended to pull them. 

 

We’ve had, over the years, plenty of generic stock purporting to represent GW stock of this sort.  Graham Farish gangwayed and suburbans, Triang Hornby pseudo Caledonian that were supposed to be GW because they carried the livery; the Caleys used the same generic B1 bogies as the initial Triang Hornby attempt at Collett bowenders, and Thompsons. Many people used them and lived with the gross inaccuracy because they were all there was.  I’d like to think that matters have improved since those days, and mostly they have, but GW Dean era passenger stock has missed the modern standards bus. 

 

The shorties can be worked up, and I enjoyed doing it on mine; good old fashioned modelling bodgery, but good old fashioned bodgery is a dying art and the modern market, we are told, demands that the model be correct and fully detailed.  The gangwayed clerestories are almost impossible to work up, and kits are a better option.

 

I’d agree that Hornby’s established competitive aggression is dissuading potential competitors from entering the fray, but do not condone it.  It is not only holding potential competitors back (this is the intention of course), but in my view it is holding Hornby back as well.  They will be unwilling to invest hard cash in retooling these old models as long as they can keep knocking them out with a high mark up with amortised tools.  This would be less of a problem if production slots in China were not in short supply. 

 

I would rather see these facilities producing current standard models than early 1960s or late 70s toys.  But it ain’t gonna happen any time soon, despite the rising interest in pregrouping stock.  The Southern, once the Cinderella of RTR interest, is much better served than the allegedly popular GW. 

 

Incidentally, ‘plenitude’ has been adopted as my word of the day...

Edited by The Johnster
  • Like 1
  • Agree 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

And to compound the Hornby position the Dean single in full 60/70s form including big ol D coupling is now at final artwork stage on the Engine Shed today.

 

Hornby will continue to produce these models whilst it sells and it clearly satisfies a market (Hornbys!!) whereas the more serious modelling side cannot seemingly command a sizeable market to justify a serious tooling of RTR Clerestory stock by either Hornby to replace what they have nor any of the other companies.

 

Of course there could be something around the corner that breaks this impasse - a hint of LBCSR 4 or 6 wheelers from their absence from Hattons Genesis coaches.

Link to post
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

And to compound the Hornby position the Dean single in full 60/70s form including big ol D coupling is now at final artwork stage on the Engine Shed today.

 

image.png.9f3561843191affe306b31dc65ff4ab8.png

 

image.png.940f7a8e1635f9e524faca5e2c361d8d.png

 

That really is laughable in 2019 - I remember being underwhelmed by the Dean Single when I was a pre-teen, and I'm now some sixty years older !!

 

I'm only glad that I have no use for such a caricature - even Rule 1 would be stretching credibility to breaking-point.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

  • Agree 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Sorry chaps, but Hornby know their business. The new pics show a jolly old loco, cab details, pretty red lining, and one big driver. And changing the identity to 'Atalanta' or 'Fire Queen' would give it a bit more buzz. To those of us who lack the GWR persuasion, this simply looks like a big seller yet again. 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Sorry chaps, but Hornby know their business. The new pics show a jolly old loco, cab details, pretty red lining, and one big driver. And changing the identity to 'Atalanta' or 'Fire Queen' would give it a bit more buzz. To those of us who lack the GWR persuasion, this simply looks like a big seller yet again. 

 

No doubt - it's a pot-boiler for the undiscerning, and of no interest to the GWR cogniscenti.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...