Layout Advice Please - N Guage or OO? 12ft X 4ft Size

[Delorean1984]

2 hours ago, AlexHolt said:

 

My layout is a similar size. 12ft x 6ft in OO gauge, there is plenty of space with that to get 3rd and 4th radius curves and a 5 or 6 coach train round on a continuous loop. 12ft by 5ft is definitely possible, curves on my layout don't even go near to the edges of the board. My layout has a 2ft operating well in the middle of it so that I can view trains going around from the inside, I'm sure you'd be able to get 12ft x 5ft with an operating well. I wouldn't have a solid board as it would be very difficult to reach over and build or pick up derailed trains. Other problem with building a solid board all the way through is that you then have to think of scenery to put in there as the loops won't go through the middle of the board, makes it somewhat difficult trying to think of things to place in the middle of the board. I've had both a layout with an operating well and one that was solid which I had to reach over, the operating well is so much easier to build the layout and to operate it. I'd recommend OO if its for a child, its easier for them to see and is more fun for them. Also there is more available off the shelf for OO. In terms of materials for construction, you want to be using 9mm plywood. Do not use MDF its a dreadful material for building model railways, it can sag and warp and makes derailments more likely. I used pine bracing for mine. 

 

You asked for similar photos, none so far so I'll share mine. This is what I've got with 12 x 6, just as an example of how much you can get in the space, tracks don't go to the edge so could lose some space there or use tighter radius curves. You want 2nd radius and above for OO, 1st is too tight for most locos. 

 

 

 

Don't think there is a general rule. Mine is just as tall as the workbench the boards were built on top of. Once sat on the chair its pretty much at viewing height. 

 

 

 

Edit: Should add that if its primarily for a child to watch trains go round, they won't care what time period or era its in, just run whatever, but steam locos will generally be more interesting to younger people.

Thank you very much for the photo, mine will be in same place against garage wall like yours, probably why it's similar in length. You've even got same garage door as me too.

 

Although I'll be using it I am making it for my daughter to have fun with and play with, the operating space in the middle is great idea and she can stand on something to be able to play with the trains and layout, like you say 00 is maybe more child friendly, I can always do an n guage layout later in future when she is older. Yup decided on plywood, my father in law is going to help build the baseboard table. Will have a think on the height of it. As I've only got a Mac I will have a play around in Railmoddler now I know my space. 

 

This leads me to my next question on how to control it, DCC or DC, what's your thoughts?

[Delorean1984]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

Much simpler and more reliable if you avoid changing track levels.

If you do, the steepest gradient should be about 1:35 (Peco recommendation) or shallower if you can do it but that takes a lot of space (length).

With steep gradients like 1:35 you may run into issues of locos tractive effort - some locos won't be able to climb the gradient pulling a decent train.

With multiple levels you can run into access problems when locos stop or derail under another bit of track.

 

However, while keeping the track level you can vary the landscape levels to great effect, like Alex's layout above.

 

Many thanks again for your help, I still feel I'd like to do some gentle gradients somewhere but like you say can do it other way like in Alex layout. Is there an easy way or simple way of building a gradient and it's supports?

 

Is there any particular track you recommend? Seems a minefield, Peco seems to be way to go rather than Hornby and there's loads of variations too.

 

I'm thinking of going DCC too but should I consider DC instead?

[imt]

7 minutes ago, Delorean1984 said:

Many thanks again for your help, I still feel I'd like to do some gentle gradients somewhere but like you say can do it other way like in Alex layout. Is there an easy way or simple way of building a gradient and it's supports?

 

Is there any particular track you recommend? Seems a minefield, Peco seems to be way to go rather than Hornby and there's loads of variations too.

 

I'm thinking of going DCC too but should I consider DC instead?

 

1. Look at Woodland Scenics incline sets

 

2.  In 00 there are various sizes (weights) of rail available.  As a starter I'd stick with code 100. Peco Settrack matches with the better Streamline - better only because the range includes larger points and (e.g.) slips.

 

3. If you don't have stock (or not much) go DCC.  It doesn't really simplify the wiring that much BUT it gives far greater control facilities (for the adults anyway!)

[mdvle]

33 minutes ago, Delorean1984 said:

I'm thinking of going DCC too but should I consider DC instead?

 

DCC can have many advantages, and if you are starting out (ie. don't already have a large number of locos to suddenly at chips to) it doesn't have the sudden cost issue to deter.

 

Can also have the advantage (if the budget allows) to go for sound so for example the daughter could use the train whistle/horn to add to the play factor in addition to the usual engine sounds.

[Robert Stokes]

I agree about control via DCC. I cannot imagine why anyone starting out today would consider the alternative. However, don't believe the "only two wires" adverts. It is best to provide power at several places round the layout. (Serious modellers use bus wires all round the layout with connections to every individual piece of track but I think you can avoid that at this stage.)

 

I also agree that code 100 track is best for a newcomer. Use Peco set-track for curves. You could use flexi-track which is cheaper but it is difficult to make small radius curves with it without introducing dog-legs at joins which will cause lots of derailments. By all means use flexi-track for straights. You have the room to use Peco streamline points rather than set-track ones which will improve running and look much better.

 

Once again, if you use a central operating well, seriously consider building the layout high enough to duck under into it. Your daughter could sit on a high stool or stand on some kind of box.

[Pete the Elaner]

21 hours ago, Robert Stokes said:

Perhaps I should have said that 12' by 4' is too large for an N gauge starter layout but maybe njee20 would still disagree with that.

I think that is a very important point.

The trouble with starter layouts is that many (including myself) feel compelled to lay as much track as possible. You simply can't lay as much in OO.

 

The more complex you make the layout, the longer it will take to get something running. There are very few people who actually enjoy wiring, but it is necessary to get a layout running properly. For the majority, this is a tedious process & the longer it takes, the more likely you are to give up.

This is especially true if you have a younger person involved.

Don't be tempted to do any 'temporary' wiring either. In my experience, this never gets re-visited, leaving you with a layout riddled with faults.

 

A less complex layout is usually more rewarding.

[Delorean1984]

Ok thanks all again for the advice. I'll probably go for Peco 100 on all of your advice. What's the difference of between the 75 stuff and 100? Is Peco considered the best track out there at the moment?

 

Will go DCC as it makes sense starting out. Is there any particular controllers to go for? I've been advised to steer clear of the Hornby ones.

 

I've got no locos yet but will keep my eye out for second hand stuff although will have to be DCC unless pick up a cheap DC loco and I convert it. Rolling stock I need to buy too.

 

15 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I think that is a very important point.

The trouble with starter layouts is that many (including myself) feel compelled to lay as much track as possible. You simply can't lay as much in OO.

 

The more complex you make the layout, the longer it will take to get something running. There are very few people who actually enjoy wiring, but it is necessary to get a layout running properly. For the majority, this is a tedious process & the longer it takes, the more likely you are to give up.

This is especially true if you have a younger person involved.

Don't be tempted to do any 'temporary' wiring either. In my experience, this never gets re-visited, leaving you with a layout riddled with faults.

 

A less complex layout is usually more rewarding.

 

Thanks for this tip, totally agree with you on all the points you mentioned. Don't want to over complicate my first layout and want something my daughter can enjoy.

[Robert Stokes]

Peco code 75 is track that has rails 3/4 the height of code 100, so more correct to scale. However, it is less robust and more easier to damage. Also you can only get electrofrog points in code 75, which although they give better running, are harder for a novice to wire up. Set-track points are all code 100 so if you want to use any of them it is easiest to do with track that is also code 100. Peco track is the one many people use, but I don't think it is better than Hornby or Bachmann. All three types of code 100 will fit together although there may be slight colour differences in the sleepers.

 

Many people, including me, like the NCE Power Cab DCC controller. It costs about £150 for the starter kit.

[njee20]

Code xxx is the thousands of an inch of the rail height. 
 

Confusingly in n gauge code 55 is actually stronger than code 80, as the 55 is half buried in the sleepers. In OO the same is not true. I’d go for code 75 myself, it’s not markedly harder to work with electrofrog turnouts and they give better running. 

[imt]

1 hour ago, njee20 said:

I’d go for code 75 myself, it’s not markedly harder to work with electrofrog turnouts and they give better running. 

 

You asked for opinions and you are getting them.  I don't particularly agree with that statement - by all means use code 75, absolutely no reason not to.  BUT much of the quality of running achieved is absolutely nothing to do with the track or the type of pointwork but more how well it is laid. You can buy track guages in order to bend flexi-track, but for a first layout maybe using Settrack curves and straights - even with Streamline points - MIGHT help you with what can be a difficult art form.  I know people who can lay and ballast code 100 track so it looks superb - but it took years of practice to get there.  Maybe you want a forward plan that works before your daughter's 18th birthday?

 

I too use NCE PowerCab (much expanded now after years of use) but it's getting a bit dated, and there doesn't seem to be any development program - you may find something better (more modern/more facilities) if you look in/ask in the DCC forums.

 

What ever you choose to do - very good luck and keep us informed.

[Zomboid]

The basic Bachmann DCC controller can be had for not a lot. It doesn't do very much, but it's simplicity might be ideal for younglings. They come bundled in DCC train sets - which would probably be a decent thing to buy as a starter if you haven't got one already. This kind of plan will need a circle of second radius as some of the components.

[Delorean1984]

2 hours ago, Robert Stokes said:

Peco code 75 is track that has rails 3/4 the height of code 100, so more correct to scale. However, it is less robust and more easier to damage. Also you can only get electrofrog points in code 75, which although they give better running, are harder for a novice to wire up. Set-track points are all code 100 so if you want to use any of them it is easiest to do with track that is also code 100. Peco track is the one many people use, but I don't think it is better than Hornby or Bachmann. All three types of code 100 will fit together although there may be slight colour differences in the sleepers.

 

Many people, including me, like the NCE Power Cab DCC controller. It costs about £150 for the starter kit.

 

Many thanks again. I presume you can get electrofrog points in code 100 too? I think it's looking like code 100 that I'll get. I presume code 100 is better for temperature fluctuations too as my layout will be in the garage? Cheers for tip on NCE, most people say that's one to go for.

 

2 hours ago, njee20 said:

Code xxx is the thousands of an inch of the rail height. 
 

Confusingly in n gauge code 55 is actually stronger than code 80, as the 55 is half buried in the sleepers. In OO the same is not true. I’d go for code 75 myself, it’s not markedly harder to work with electrofrog turnouts and they give better running. 

 

I presume I can get electrofrog points in code 100 too? I'm not too worried about wiring them, will give it a go. I would go for 75 but I've heard it's not as good in great temperature fluctuations? If thats the case I'll stick with 100.

 

59 minutes ago, imt said:

 

You asked for opinions and you are getting them.  I don't particularly agree with that statement - by all means use code 75, absolutely no reason not to.  BUT much of the quality of running achieved is absolutely nothing to do with the track or the type of pointwork but more how well it is laid. You can buy track guages in order to bend flexi-track, but for a first layout maybe using Settrack curves and straights - even with Streamline points - MIGHT help you with what can be a difficult art form.  I know people who can lay and ballast code 100 track so it looks superb - but it took years of practice to get there.  Maybe you want a forward plan that works before your daughter's 18th birthday?

 

I too use NCE PowerCab (much expanded now after years of use) but it's getting a bit dated, and there doesn't seem to be any development program - you may find something better (more modern/more facilities) if you look in/ask in the DCC forums.

 

What ever you choose to do - very good luck and keep us informed.

 

Haha yup it probably will take me that long to master. What's difference between streamline points and normal ones? Not sure if I'll use Flexi track yet, will have a think. NCE seems to be good sensus, will check it out. Yeah will keep everyone informed on my building journey.

 

 

[Robert Stokes]

You can get electrofrogs in Peco code 100 streamline but not in set-track.

 

The set-track points have a much smaller curve radius than streamline ones. Set-track ones have a nominal radius of about 18" and turn 22.5 degrees whereas streamline ones turn 12 degrees with nominal radii of 24", 36", or 60". The largest ones do look really good but use up a lot of space.

[Delorean1984]

1 hour ago, Robert Stokes said:

You can get electrofrogs in Peco code 100 streamline but not in set-track.

 

The set-track points have a much smaller curve radius than streamline ones. Set-track ones have a nominal radius of about 18" and turn 22.5 degrees whereas streamline ones turn 12 degrees with nominal radii of 24", 36", or 60". The largest ones do look really good but use up a lot of space.

 

Ah just done more research on this and it's little bit overwhelming lol.

 

I think I want to go for code 100 for sure. The next decision to make is the type which I didn't fully understand before but do now.

 

I think the streamlined stuff will be better for me but the next question I have, even after watching countless videos on YouTube is how is best way to join this stuff up? People look like they remove sleepers at ends to allow for joiners/fish plate to go in, is that right and next question is do I solder these or not? I always thought you wouldn't as it wouldn't allow for expansion and contraction?

[imt]

27 minutes ago, Delorean1984 said:

I think the streamlined stuff will be better for me but the next question I have, even after watching countless videos on YouTube is how is best way to join this stuff up? People look like they remove sleepers at ends to allow for joiners/fish plate to go in, is that right and next question is do I solder these or not? I always thought you wouldn't as it wouldn't allow for expansion and contraction?

 

You use those little things called fishplates and they will hold the joints tight - some are metal (conducting) and some plastic (insulating) - you will need to gradully learn why you might need the second kind.  Frankly you shouldn't need to solder joints or take out sleepers - though there is sometimes a need when joining Streamline points to normal track or odd special configurations.  There you just cut off the odd sleeper, and slide it underneath again when the track is fixed down (trimmed sometimes).

 

If you were thinking of electrical supplies, it is better to provide a feed to just about every piece of track so you are NOT relying on fishplates to provide continuity.  You can buy fishplates with "dropper wires" soldered on and you just need to join those to a main feed running from your controller (if DCC) you might need some isolating switches if you use DC.

[Pete the Elaner]

2 hours ago, Delorean1984 said:

 

Ah just done more research on this and it's little bit overwhelming lol.

 

I think I want to go for code 100 for sure. The next decision to make is the type which I didn't fully understand before but do now.

 

I think the streamlined stuff will be better for me but the next question I have, even after watching countless videos on YouTube is how is best way to join this stuff up? People look like they remove sleepers at ends to allow for joiners/fish plate to go in, is that right and next question is do I solder these or not? I always thought you wouldn't as it wouldn't allow for expansion and contraction?

Settrack uses the same dimensions as Hornby track. Points are tighter, curves can be quite tight & the space between adjacent tracks is quite large.

Streamline has different size points available, all longer than settrack. Space between tracks is closer but this may cause a problem on tight curves...which is exactly why Settrack has more clearance.

Settrack also has recesses which allow you to use a ready-made electrical connector. Most of us solder connections to streamline but you may not want to do this.
Streamline has no straights & curves, just flexi track. It can look more realistic but takes more care to lay.

Other brands of more realistic looking track are C & L, SMP, DCC Concepts. The sleepers & their spacing do look better than Peco but they take more care to lay well & are code 75.

I would not recommend soldering rail joints. A did some calculations a while ago & a temperature difference of 20c (reasonable for a loft or garage) will cause the rail to expand enough for it to significantly buckle if it cannot expand lengthwise. I did some research on this, including an online calculator because I could not derive a formula myself (which I was most annoyed about!).

 

I doubt you will get any electrical connection problems for at least a couple of years & you can always solder droppers to any piece of rail which suffers from a poor connection, unless you have painted & ballasted the rails.

[Delorean1984]

10 hours ago, imt said:

 

You use those little things called fishplates and they will hold the joints tight - some are metal (conducting) and some plastic (insulating) - you will need to gradully learn why you might need the second kind.  Frankly you shouldn't need to solder joints or take out sleepers - though there is sometimes a need when joining Streamline points to normal track or odd special configurations.  There you just cut off the odd sleeper, and slide it underneath again when the track is fixed down (trimmed sometimes).

 

If you were thinking of electrical supplies, it is better to provide a feed to just about every piece of track so you are NOT relying on fishplates to provide continuity.  You can buy fishplates with "dropper wires" soldered on and you just need to join those to a main feed running from your controller (if DCC) you might need some isolating switches if you use DC.

 

Many thanks again, I thought that might be the case.

 

The video that confused me was from EverardJunction In this video,

 

Can you see the gaps he leaves between the joining track and he seems to remove sleeper to do that but why does he leave a gap like this as when you ballast it you won't have sleeper in this area and just have a large bit of ballast?

 

Yeah I think I will do that with regards to providing a feed to every track, more for reliability. I'll be doing DCC so from what I understand you mean is wiring it to the bus wire? I hope I'm learning here lol.

 

8 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Settrack uses the same dimensions as Hornby track. Points are tighter, curves can be quite tight & the space between adjacent tracks is quite large.

Streamline has different size points available, all longer than settrack. Space between tracks is closer but this may cause a problem on tight curves...which is exactly why Settrack has more clearance.

Settrack also has recesses which allow you to use a ready-made electrical connector. Most of us solder connections to streamline but you may not want to do this.
Streamline has no straights & curves, just flexi track. It can look more realistic but takes more care to lay.

Other brands of more realistic looking track are C & L, SMP, DCC Concepts. The sleepers & their spacing do look better than Peco but they take more care to lay well & are code 75.

I would not recommend soldering rail joints. A did some calculations a while ago & a temperature difference of 20c (reasonable for a loft or garage) will cause the rail to expand enough for it to significantly buckle if it cannot expand lengthwise. I did some research on this, including an online calculator because I could not derive a formula myself (which I was most annoyed about!).

 

I doubt you will get any electrical connection problems for at least a couple of years & you can always solder droppers to any piece of rail which suffers from a poor connection, unless you have painted & ballasted the rails.

 

I thought that might be the case with regard to soldering and temperature fluctuations. I'll avoid doing it.

 

I think streamline is the track I want to go for, sounds like although it will take bit more thought for laying, it will be better in the long run.

[imt]

2 hours ago, Delorean1984 said:

Yeah I think I will do that with regards to providing a feed to every track, more for reliability. I'll be doing DCC so from what I understand you mean is wiring it to the bus wire? I hope I'm learning here lol.

 

Yeah that's the feller!  You may think of having 2 if you intend to have controlled points and signals - an Accessory Bus. There are umpteen ways of connecting to the bus - from soldering (not something I like doing under the baseboard!) to using Molex connectors (easier when adding wiring later - they clip round the wire and save cutting into the bus) to the old fashioned but very reliable terminal strips.  To save the "rats nest" which often arises you need to do 2 things - make (say) 2" holes in your baseboard supports so you can thread the wire through and PLAN where points etc. are going to be so you can put the bus breaks.  If you have baseboard joins there is a special kind of terminal strip which is a plug and socket, a cheap and easy way of connections (and you should only need 4 pins - 2 for each bus).  I have 3 line busses and 1 accessory bus, and I have short circuit trips in the 3 line busses so that a problem in (say) a fiddle yard does not prevent the main line from running etc.

 

It is easy, just the same thing repeated a thousand times - I have half an Australian mountain's work of copper under my "only two wires needed" DCC layout!

Edited November 3, 2019 by imt

[Pete the Elaner]

Regarding the Everard Junction video:

 

Richard removed the sleeper because it gets in the way of the rail joiner. At 20.02, he mentions replacing it with a cosmetic one. This will be with the rail fixing sliced off.

I have tried cutting off the rail fixing & leaving the sleeper on the webbing, but I also found it easier to do exactly what he did in this video.

That was also the old Everard Junction. The replacement is being built now & it is even better.

[Delorean1984]

Right guys, I'm thinking of a design and notice in using track design software that I have the choose of using setrack and flexi streamline.

 

This might come as a dumb question but with Flexi track when I come to lay it in the future how do I get the right angle and radius of the curve so it all looks right and I cut the Flexi correctly?

[Delorean1984]

On 04/11/2019 at 08:08, Pete the Elaner said:

Regarding the Everard Junction video:

 

Richard removed the sleeper because it gets in the way of the rail joiner. At 20.02, he mentions replacing it with a cosmetic one. This will be with the rail fixing sliced off.

I have tried cutting off the rail fixing & leaving the sleeper on the webbing, but I also found it easier to do exactly what he did in this video.

That was also the old Everard Junction. The replacement is being built now & it is even better.

Thank you for explaining, much appreciated.

[Robert Stokes]

1 hour ago, Delorean1984 said:

Right guys, I'm thinking of a design and notice in using track design software that I have the choose of using setrack and flexi streamline.

 

This might come as a dumb question but with Flexi track when I come to lay it in the future how do I get the right angle and radius of the curve so it all looks right and I cut the Flexi correctly?

One way is to use something to mark out two pencil curves on the board which are just wider than the track. Then you lay it between these lines. I use a long thin piece of hardboard pinned at one end and with holes the other end for the pencil.

 

You can also buy "Trachsetta" which is a piece of metal to fit inside the rails and hold it in a curve. However, you can only get these in certain radii - I think 18", 21", 24" and some larger ones.

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, Delorean1984 said:

Right guys, I'm thinking of a design and notice in using track design software that I have the choose of using setrack and flexi streamline.

 

This might come as a dumb question but with Flexi track when I come to lay it in the future how do I get the right angle and radius of the curve so it all looks right and I cut the Flexi correctly?

There is nothing silly about asking that.

 

You should get a decent result doing it by eye. Just try to avoid sudden kinks at rail joins.

If you feel happier using a tool, then Tracksettas  are available. These are available at most shows if you prefer to see what you get before you buy.

I doubt you'll need more than 1 or 2 curves & they are all available separately. They look a bit expensive on the ebay link but I bought all of mine several years ago so I don't really know how much you can expect to pay at a show now.

The straight one is useful although you can use a spirit level or similar to ensure your track is straight.

[Delorean1984]

Just started designing the track layout. 

 

Layout is definitely now gonna be 12ft X 5ft with 8ft by 2ft operating well in middle, thanks for all the help btw guys.

 

I'm wanting a terminus station in the top left hand corner of the layout which then leads onto a couple of main loops, is it best to keep it reasonably simple? It just seems a bit simple. Probably have a through station with couple of platforms at the front of layout, what I'm also struggling with is a sidings area or place to store locos, not sure how I will fit that in most effectively due to having the operating well. Is it best to just to try and spread it all over the layout?

[Robert Stokes]

There is a problem with a terminus on a layout that is not verylarge. When a train leaves the terminus, how do you reverse it to bring it back to the terminus? Have you thought about that? There is another problem having two stations on a layout that size. A reasonable length train can have its back end having just left one station as the front end is approaching the other one, which doesn't look very realistic.

 

If I were building that layout (mine is a bit longer but the same width) I would use the rear 12 to 15" for storage loops behind a scenic break, the 24" operating well in front of that, and the 21 to 24" in front of that for a passing station. Of course it depends on how you want to balance operation against realism and your ideas may be totally different to mine.