DCC for small exhibition layout, which one?

[zephyrman]

Hi , I know this is probably a question asked by many about which DCC to go for. Many say its best to try to find which one you like. However I feel as this will be a small exhibition layout maybe a specific system will suit. So here is a breif idea of what the layout is and how it operates.

 

Modern image with occasional steam special, but mainly Diesel operated to make use of sound and light functions.

 

Curved end to end layout. Will have a 6 road hidden fiddle yard at one end, coming out of a tunnel into the station limits area. There will be one small servicing siding and one small freight siding for a couple of vans. This will comprise of two platforms with the roads in the middle, with one  of the roads leading further off to a single freight online line on a quay with two sidings with points to create a passing loop. 

 

The station are will be signalled with Dapol SR semaphore signals and the quay branch with two aspect colour light. 

 

I will be using a Model Signal Engineering lever frame to operate the points and signals. For the signals the idea is to link the frame bottom are to a slide switch, so when the lever is moved it operates the switch. Would this work with DCC? 

 

There will be one analogue loco and the rest will be dcc. A maximum of 15 locomotives/multiple units. 

 

I will have the station and buildings fitted with lights. 

 

So with these features in mind is there a specific system this would be suited to? 

 

Hope you may be able to guide me.

 

Thank you

 

Gary

 

[ColinK]

A suggestion for your fiddle yard.  On my layout the points in the station are manually worked using piano wire rods, but those in the fiddle yard  are motorised using Peco solenoids.  The reason for motorising them is that I could then set up macros on my NCE system, so pressing ‘macro 1 sets the points for fiddle yard road 1, macro 2 for road 2 etc  all the up to road 8. Point frog polarity is changed using Hex Frog Juicers.  It all works really well.

[Phil S]

With a small layout at an exhibition, (or generally), I would recommend the ablility to move around whilst still controlling the layout.

In some locations ( including at home ) you may wnat to control from the rear, but in others, from the front - although having the lever frame suggests a 'fixed' location - BUT lever frmes can be 'locked out of use' when the signalman is not there.   I would therefore recommend a handset which can do both locos and accessories - such as the Multimaus Family.

 

However, tempus fugit, and many people like to use their phones and tablets - and the Z21/z21 family continues the ability to use the wired Multimaus, or a Wifi-connected WLANMultimaus, or iPhone/pad or Android phone/tablet .... the latter options having the option of a touch controlled track plan.   The use of  a z21Start might therefore be an economical and fairly future proof option which leaves your choices open....

 

Digitising your lever frame:

There is a MERG kit (available to members) which encodes switch inputs to dcc ... as a standalone dcc bus (ie no loco control)

There is a 'Paco' variation XbusTCO  in that kit as a design which requires you to make the pcb etc which takes the witch inputs and turns then into Xpressnet commands - just as if they had been entered on a handset . therefore able to form part of a dcc system based on Xpressnet such as Roco Lenz Hornby ZTC....  I have a module from a small 1-man company overseas who no longer supply the UK 8-(

However - ready made there are now some commercial supplier(s) in the UK offering an equivalent priduct.

Paco website Links:  http://usuaris.tinet.cat/fmco/lokmaus_en.html#xbustco    or http://usuaris.tinet.cat/fmco/ [home page]

[OR for somone into writing/adapting software ? - they could use ANY FEEDBACK encoder which is notionally used for occupancy detection to create an event in Layout control software that triggers a point change 'instead'.]

 

I have just identified a Loconet-based version with 8 i/o connections from Train Modules:

SmartLIO - Control desk (LocoNet)    TM-75461   In stock, in production

Designed to LocoNet system      8 programmable input/output      2 analogue input   Fast programming mode    Optional external supply

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Phil S

[zephyrman]

Thank you gents, all appreciated. So does the Guagmaster Prodigy system not allow accesories to be controlled from the handset? I know these are basic questions but I am at the Basic level. Thanks

[Nick Holliday]

I note you are hoping to run an analogue loco as well as DCC. I know most of the earlier systems allowed this, although now doubt is cast as to the wisdom of it, but I believe this facility, using code 000 or similar, is not offered on many of the latest ones, although I may be wrong.

[Izzy]

44 minutes ago, zephyrman said:

Thank you gents, all appreciated. So does the Guagmaster Prodigy system not allow accesories to be controlled from the handset? I know these are basic questions but I am at the Basic level. Thanks

The Express handsets do not, the ‘Advance’ ones do. There is also now a plug-in wi-fi module that allows the use of both Android and Apple phones/tablets also with full accessory control according to the information provide, ( I don’t have one at present as as I have a prodigy wi-fi handset but might get one sometime so have obtained all the available info).

 

Izzy

[WIMorrison]

39 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

I note you are hoping to run an analogue loco as well as DCC. I know most of the earlier systems allowed this, although now doubt is cast as to the wisdom of it, but I believe this facility, using code 000 or similar, is not offered on many of the latest ones, although I may be wrong.

 

Lenz used to allow this, but it is a very bad idea - unless you are looking for an excuse to replace a loco with a new one and that in what will happen after a very short period of use.

 

DCC locos can run on DC layouts, but you should never try to do the opposite.

[Matt C]

Some allow you to run one dc loco using 0 ?  But the Z21 z21 definately dont, other than that its a great system 

 

Depending on the track plan could the dc loco run on a separate length of track ? The possibility of using a shuttle module then comes in to play, powered from a separate dc controller

 

HTH

[Oldddudders]

Address 0 is fine for running 20 seconds in each direction, proving the new DC loco runs ok, but not a good idea for any sort of real running. The screaming whistle noise by the motor tells you it is in torment. 

[WIMorrison]

17 minutes ago, Mattc6911 said:

Some allow you to run one dc loco using 0 ?  But the Z21 z21 definately dont, other than that its a great system 

 

...

 

Roco (and most other manufacturers)  didn't implement the abiity to run a DC loco on address 0 for a very good reason - it isnt good for a DC loco - put one onto a DCC track and tell me that noise and heat generated isn.t harming the loco.

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

I note you are hoping to run an analogue loco as well as DCC. I know most of the earlier systems allowed this, ..... but I believe this facility, using code 000 or similar, is not offered on many of the latest ones, although I may be wrong.

 

In fairness, very few systems ever had the address zero facility.

Those that did or still have, include Digitrax, Uhlenbrock, Lenz, ZTC and Hornby.

The facility is not available with NCE, MRC/Gaugemaster, CVP EasyDCC, Roco, ESU, Bachmann, Viessmann, etc.

 

 

.

 

[Matt C]

10 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

Roco (and most other manufacturers)  didn't implement the abiity to run a DC loco on address 0 for a very good reason - it isnt good for a DC loco - put one onto a DCC track and tell me that noise and heat generated isn.t harming the loco.

Absolutely, I merely  passed on the information that the Z21/ z21 doesn't have that option and a possible way the OP COULD run a dc loco  

[guzzler17]

For a layout that will have an element of shunting I'd go for a controller with a knob and buttons.

 

I've used the Z21 app, on both phone and tablet, when I last took my layout to a show and it's not terribly easy to shunt as you need to look at the train and the screen.  Using the Z21 app on a roundy-roundy is perfect as you can walk around with your train.

 

The Digikeijs DR5000, which is cheaper than the Z21 Black, and a Roco wi-fi Multimaus might be a good a good combination?

[Phil S]

We find the Wireless Versions of the Multimaus to bevery useful at shows = no tangle of wiring and freedon to walk all around the layout, and no preset-control position which may prove inconvenient at a particuar location.

However:  We ALWAYS have 1 wired Multimaus connected as emergency reserve - in case batteries go flat ot there are wireless problems.

 

The Multi Centrale Pro and Mulimaus Pro (Blue) were their original Wireless handsets - used ZigBee wireless protocols and were much more expensive than the recently released,  These have een replaced by the Z21 series - but the MCPro can now be beconnected via the EXT connection.

 

CURRENT Wireless offering: The WLANMultimaus in BLACK which I have bought at price from about 80GBP upwards ....  

The BLACK version uses WiFi and is intended for the Z21 / z21 / z21 start+code which may ALSO use concurently or separately with smart phones or tablets.  

ALL use Centre-Off Knob Speed Control and all can equally control Accessories  which can also optionally  be controlled in parallel by the tablets / phones.

NONE of them support an analogue loco.   Very few locos cannot be converted to digital.  

(The Bachmann H0 hand pumped cart being such an example of a split chassis with no wiring or space 8-(. 

However the Wickham Trolley CAN be digitised.

 

[JimFin]

On 03/11/2019 at 11:51, zephyrman said:

 Many say its best to try to find which one you like. However I feel as this will be a small exhibition layout maybe a specific system will suit.

Think in this instance, the many are right - a lot of it is about the ergonomics of how the controller fits in your hand assuming you go for a hand held. Throttle knobs / joysticks / touchscreen really do come down to personal preference. ( I have a theory you can guess the age of the operator by which they prefer!) There are a few specialist DCC dealers who take demonstration set ups around shows and it would be worth trying a few in your hand to help decide. For the layout you have described, pretty well any mainstream system would work.

 

On 03/11/2019 at 11:51, zephyrman said:

There will be one analogue loco

 

In general - that wont work.

 

On 03/11/2019 at 11:51, zephyrman said:

I will be using a Model Signal Engineering lever frame to operate the points and signals. For the signals the idea is to link the frame bottom are to a slide switch, so when the lever is moved it operates the switch. Would this work with DCC? 

 

Not readily - but - if you used an ESU Servo Pilot accessory controller, it will work servos both digital and analogue. By hard wiring your slide switch to the analogue pins, it will run servos for points, signals or whatever you like quite separate from the rest of your control system.

 

On 03/11/2019 at 11:51, zephyrman said:

I will have the station and buildings fitted with lights. 

 

Decide and design how these are to be controlled early on. i.e. One on/off switch for the lot or individual control for different buildings which implies either a separate 12v circuit or accessory decoders to run them. If the later, you really need a handset that runs both locos and accessories - unless - I have a turntable on my layout and the motor is driven by a fixed loco decoder so in my case, the turntable is loco 55 and I have used the lighting function from the decoder to operate platform and station building lights.

 

Overall many different options for you - I think the way forward may be to decide a budget, try out as many as you can and go for the one which offers the best balance of form and function for your needs.

Edited November 5, 2019 by JimFin

[peach james]

I would use a lever frame direct driving Torti, or servo control system, not fed into DCC at all if there is no intent to run the layout under computer control.  By making the lever frame in a seperate box, you can then mount it on either the front or rear of the boards.  This will reduce cost and complexity, even though DCC is oft touted as reducing wiring.

 

Long Marton Signal Box

 

My experience with a lever frame on Long Marton is that it took a LOT of wiring to do what I want, even though said wiring is enjoyable (??? my sanity says otherwise !).  On a smaller layout, it may be more practical to have ground thrown turnouts instead.  It's all horses for courses.  Long Marton has a full on Modratec interlocked lever frame, tied via the microswitches to DCC.  This then is interpolated by the computer running RR&Co 5.0c4  to operate the turnouts.  I'm using Digitrax DS64's for the turnouts, and Tam Valley 3 way servo outputs (to get bounce) on the signals.  My lever frame is old enough that it was before Modratec had introduced the electric locks, so I have a pair of servos which provide that function.  The programming in RR&Co is not complicated, and it probably is possible to do it in other ways.  (a NCE Mini panel probably has enough programming umph to run the way I have done for that portion...)

 

As has been mentioned above, I would figure out a hand controller style that works for you first, then go from there.  z21, Digitrax, Lenz, NCE    all offer what you are wanting in a workable form.  I'd stay away from Gaugemaster, Hornby, LDCC(*) or Bachmann, because they are probably not meaty enough of systems.  (though that can be mitigated, as has been mentioned above)  

 

Our current club layout (BRMo Vancouver Island) "Bricknell Road", has servo controlled turnouts, is wired for DC, but typically operated by DCC (...club...).  The Servo's are all controlled by a mimic panel, rather than a lever frame, but either is entirely possible.  Said mimic panel is on a long enough lead to allow it to be put up on either the front or back of the layout.  (but not long enough to just sit on the floor...blame the designer...me...)

 

Vancouver train show. by Peach James, on Flickr

 

More than 1/2 of the switches on the panel are related to traction power, because of it being a DC layout.

Links:

https://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/dual3way.html

https://modratec.com/

 

 

 

(*) LDCC is a way of using a Lego Mindstorms RCX 1.0 with the Lego remote to run DCC...yes, I have used it !

 

 

[newbryford]

On 03/11/2019 at 17:55, zephyrman said:

Thank you gents, all appreciated. So does the Guagmaster Prodigy system not allow accesories to be controlled from the handset? I know these are basic questions but I am at the Basic level. Thanks

 

It depends which GM Prodigy you are intending to use.

The Prodigy Express does not allow accessory control (unless you add extra bits such as the DCC14 handset)

But the Prodigy Advance does.

 

Most basic systems can be tricky to use above F8 - a lot of current sound fitted locos will use anything up to 28 F keys for sounds (often "just because they can" - F26 - sound of driver stirring tea clockwise, F27 sound of driver stirring tea anticlockwise...........)

 

If you're only running a couple of locos at once, then a NCE Powercab is likely to be an ideal choice for you. Add a Procab or Cab-06 for an extra handset

 

As for accessories - for a realtively small layout - consider keeping them as analog systems using your switches on the lever frame.

 

Although a suitable add-on for a NCE system is a DCC Concepts Alpha encoder that can take in conventional switches, say on a mimic-style diagram - for left/right and "piggyback" them directly onto the NCE DCC bus to then operate point/signal decoders around the layout.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

 

[grriff]

I'm a newbie to DCC and this forum, so please take my advice with a pinch of salt. I have a small layout (6ft by 2ft) with a terminal station and sidings. I operate it using a SprogII linked to a laptop running Decoder Pro from JRMI. This works well and I can control the locos from an Android smartphone using the Engine Driver app linked to the laptop over my home network. This would only be suitable in a an exhibition if you had access to wireless. If you want to operate more than one loco simultaneously you would need a Sprog3. I find this arrangement makes the selection of locos much easier  than with my neighbour's NCE system. I have used Decoder Pro with a neighbour's loco with fitted sound and it seemed OK. As has been written above, you can't use an analogue loco with DCC.

You could use the JRMI software to control the accessories with suitable modules, but I suspect that's a steep learning curve. As mentioned above, it may be better to keep the accessories under analogue control.