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Exhibitions Layout Features


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(At the risk of repeating the many "what makes a good exhibition layout?" threads....................................)

 

As a long time layout attendee - without and with layouts.

I've had the:

"it's diesels and doesn't interest me"

"Nice layout - steam isn't my thing"

"You're using tension locks" shakes head and walks away.

"Good to see you're using tension locks"

"It's 00, so must be cr&p"

"I was going to go EM/P4 (other gauges are available), but I like what you've done with Code 75 - it's given me ideas"

"Sound is too loud/too quiet"

"Just right with the sound level"

"DCC 0 too complicated"

"Looks like DCC is the way forward"

"Flashing lights - toy train gimmick"

"Nice use of lights"

"No trains moving"

"Too many trains moving"

"Unprototypical operation"

"Prototypical operation"

"Layout is too high"

"Layout is too low"

 

There is no perfect "one size fits all".

 

At the end of the day, it's MY layout and if it's lucky/good enough to get invites to more shows, then I guess I must be doing something right.

 

The moral of the story is:

Simon - do what YOU want to do and don't let a minority try and convince you otherwise.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by newbryford
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Hi,

 

Here we go, another question to ponder.....

 

What do visitors and exhibitors think about physical audience interaction with a layout?

 

I don't mean people asking questions or being invited to drive trains, I mean push buttons to make scenes move, much the same way that the Miniatur Wunderland does with its push button actions. Obviously we've talked by gimmicks being undesirable, but what if these buttons were controlling genuine scenes?

 

My thinking behind this is that my new exhibition layout will feature a level crossing, and the type of crossing that is must suitable is an 'On-Call' Crossing, i.e. one that normally closed until a crossing user wishes to use it. I thought instead of this being controlled by the operators, it could be fun to put a button on the layout front for the visitors to use instead. Obviously it would be interlocked with the signalling so it isn't open when a train goes over it.

 

What do people think of this as an idea?

 

Simon

 

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I have had various "audience participation" features on my 16mm scale NG exhibit.   Visitors are able to work four signals and the turntable, and make smoke plume from the railway workers' cottage chimney.  Great fun for the kids when the trains had to obey the signals,  although some of them became obsessed with pressing buttons/pulling levers.   Didn't really grab the adults though, save perhaps the cottage smoking chimney which fascinated some of the lady visitors who were dolls house enthusiasts.  "Expert" visitors were singularly unimpressed.

 

Paul.

Edited by wcrpaul
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One aspect of audience participation is letting the audience know what's acually happening and that there's a fairly realistic operating procedure.  Layouts that hold my attention are those that have a flip chart or screen which the audience can see and which details the next train movement.  That can keep me involved for some considerable time and even makes waiting tolerable, but such layouts are sadly fairly rare.  Layouts that I invariably find tedious after a short time are those where there does not appear to be any remotely prototypical operating plan, or if there is it's certainly not one of which the viewer is made aware.  As a result, a lot of these big, often club, layouts that have an endless stream of trains running round with no apparent scheme or purpose tend to leave me cold.  Maybe that's why I go to so few exhibitions nowadays.

 

DT

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4 hours ago, wcrpaul said:

 Didn't really grab the adults though, save perhaps the cottage smoking chimney which fascinated some of the lady visitors who were dolls house enthusiasts.  "Expert" visitors were singularly unimpressed.

 

You can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time. And some people refuse to be pleased at all...

 

2 hours ago, Torper said:

As a result, a lot of these big, often club, layouts that have an endless stream of trains running round with no apparent scheme or purpose tend to leave me cold.  Maybe that's why I go to so few exhibitions nowadays.

 

How did you survive when train watching before the days of Realtime trains, etc. when it was a lottery what would turn up and when..? You'll be pleased to know such layouts are less represented on the circuit now, well there are probably as many as before, but then there are more of the smaller one day shows with the pocket layouts that are mostly built by one person at home.

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5 hours ago, St. Simon said:

I don't mean people asking questions or being invited to drive trains, I mean push buttons to make scenes move, much the same way that the Miniatur Wunderland does with its push button actions. Obviously we've talked by gimmicks being undesirable, but what if these buttons were controlling genuine scenes?

 

My thinking behind this is that my new exhibition layout will feature a level crossing, and the type of crossing that is must suitable is an 'On-Call' Crossing, i.e. one that normally closed until a crossing user wishes to use it. I thought instead of this being controlled by the operators, it could be fun to put a button on the layout front for the visitors to use instead. Obviously it would be interlocked with the signalling so it isn't open when a train goes over it.

 

This sort of thing is common on "fun" layouts aimed mainly at children and families.  I think that if you're going to do it on a "serious" layout, then you need to make sure that it's something which is appropriate to the setting and functionality of the layout. A user-worked level crossing is probably a good idea for that. Another possibility would be a button to trigger a sequence of events in a factory diorama, for example.

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I've come late to the party (again!). It was just a point that @Andy Hayter had made a couple of pages ago regarding DCC module layouts. Our club here in France does use a modular layout as it permits the younger members to build and decorate their own layouts. All the layouts follow the same format regarding edge-of-baseboard track spacing so that they may all join together. (I've made one too but 'British' style that can be slotted in anywhere).

 

Next year, there is talk of doing an absolutely huge modular layout with clubs from Belgium, Germany and France bringing modules together to represent a run from the North Sea to the Mediterranean (not prototypical length for obvious reasons ;)).

 

The point is that the modules being fairly simple (max 1.2m x 600mm wide) with little wiring for accessories, are run as either DC or DCC. The last showing was entirely DCC.

 

The height of the boards have been set at 1.0m -/+ 20mm. Legs are fabricated from simple 30x30mm battens and plugged into under board sockets at each corner. The height is adjustable by sliding up or down in the socket and held in place via a large Allen 'grub' screw plus there is an adjustable foot floor-end for fine adjustment. It seems to be 'just right' for viewing and working upon. Being modular, the boards are turned on their sides for access to the wiring.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

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Nice idea Simon!

 

I think sometimes you just got to trust the gut and if you think it’s a fun idea then just do it and surprise people!

 

Many years back I made a depot layout featuring a modern murder forensics scene (I believe the first on a UK layout), small children trespassing on railway tracks and hoards of graffiti...if I’d asked a bunch of conservative railway modellers in advance if it’s a ‘good idea’ then I’d’ve probably got a highly negative reaction! In short, just go for it and chances are it’ll be fun and make your layout a stand-out thing, with some of your personality included!

 

Cheers,

James

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On 09/11/2019 at 22:13, newbryford said:

As a long time layout attendee - without and with layouts.

I've had the:

"it's diesels and doesn't interest me"

"Nice layout - steam isn't my thing"

"You're using tension locks" shakes head and walks away.

"Good to see you're using tension locks"

"It's 00, so must be cr&p"

"I was going to go EM/P4 (other gauges are available), but I like what you've done with Code 75 - it's given me ideas"

"Sound is too loud/too quiet"

"Just right with the sound level"

"DCC 0 too complicated"

"Looks like DCC is the way forward"

"Flashing lights - toy train gimmick"

"Nice use of lights"

"No trains moving"

"Too many trains moving"

"Unprototypical operation"

"Prototypical operation"

"Layout is too high"

"Layout is too low"

 

 

 

From the Wakefield thread, you can add...:

 

"A multitude of industrial shunting planks and geometric assemblies of modern image mass produced items, or worse still "out of the box" modern image items on industrial shunting planks, do nothing to attract me to any show".

 

Or "Not enough industrial shunting planks and geometric assemblies of modern image mass produced items, or worse still "out of the box" modern image items on industrial shunting planks, do nothing to attract me to any show".

 

I like the way the poster has identified the growing chasm between what might pass as a typical club grown exhibition layout, and something seen on the multitude of "Here look what I've done" Facebook groups.

 

You can't please all of the people all of the time, but I can see there's a definite way the exhibiting side of the hobby is going and it isn't necessarily towards raising the bar by improving all standards.

Edited by 298
...to put text into [I]italics[/I]
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6 hours ago, 298 said:

I like the way the poster has identified the growing chasm between what might pass as a typical club grown exhibition layout, and something seen on the multitude of "Here look what I've done" Facebook groups.

 

You can't please all of the people all of the time, but I can see there's a definite way the exhibiting side of the hobby is going and it isn't necessarily towards raising the bar by improving all standards.

 

Can you please explain further  - I'm not disagreeing, just interested in your thoughts

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On 05/11/2019 at 14:39, Hitchin Junction said:

Some off the wall thinking. . .

 

Also why are most exhibition layouts short? Surely someone would want to have something  more like a long straight run the length of the exhibition hall, that trains could run along stopping at various stations along the way. Even it was beyond the resources of most individuals, some sort of co-operative could easily cook it up as a joint project. I suspect operating for fun and exhibiting for the viewers would then be substantially the same activity and interest. 

 

Tim

 

I build micros as that's easiest for the space I gave available at home. (plus they are quick, cheap and allow a wider variety of modelling - different scales, eras, countries...) Exhibiting them, I do get lots of comment and discussion from people (often women prompting their spouse) about how little space is actually required for a usable model railway. My micros are invariably operated from the front and sit on a table (3 or 4 chairs in front for viewers to sit and view), also good for kids and those with mobility issues. This all adds up to lots of interaction and interest from the viewer. I can also involve them in the shunting puzzle 'game' by having them pick the cards, or even allowing the keener ones to gave a go. 

 

Regarding long layouts, one of the best layouts I've seen at a UK exhibition (in the 40 years I've been going to them) was the superb P87 modular layout at Warley some 10 years ago, brought over by a collective of Dutch and German groups, iirc. Epoch 3 DB practise. Some 100ft long, fiddle to fiddle via 3 or 4 intermediate stations and most importantly, operated as a real railway, with correct dispatching (via an internal phone system and local Stellwerke) and running the trains most realistically. I happily spent a good hour or more over the weekend watching it. 

It helped that the modules were to a consistently high standard and gelled together as one entity. 

 

But apparently I was in a very small minority as it was a. 'Foreign rubbish' and b. Boring. I get personal preference for a given era or scale or prototype, but to simply ignore very high standard modelling on that basis seems very rude, bigotted and ignorant. 

Edited by CloggyDog
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I’m also mystified as to why “system layouts”, a piece of railway with multiple stations, are so rare at UK exhibitions.

 

The British Way is to occupy half of the layout are with fiddleyards, and an area equal to the entire layout with operating space ....... it’s just plain odd that 90% of larger layouts adopt this convention.

 

i honestly think people have got stuck in a groove.

 

There were a couple of more system-like layouts at GETS recently, including a big 360 degree one, so maybe the alternatives are in people’s minds.m

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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1 hour ago, CloggyDog said:

 

I build micros as that's easiest for the space I gave available at home. (plus they are quick, cheap and allow a wider variety of modelling - different scales, eras, countries...) Exhibiting them, I do get lots of comment and discussion from people (often women prompting their spouse) about how little space is actually required for a usable model railway. My micros are invariably operated from the front and sit on a table (3 or 4 chairs in front for viewers to sit and view), also good for kids and those with mobility issues. This all adds up to lots of interaction and interest from the viewer. I can also involve them in the shunting puzzle 'game' by having them pick the cards, or even allowing the keener ones to gave a go. 

 

Regarding long layouts, one of the best layouts I've seen at a UK exhibition (in the 40 years I've been going to them) was the superb P87 modular layout at Warley some 10 years ago, brought over by a collective of Dutch and German groups, iirc. Epoch 3 DB practise. Some 100ft long, fiddle to fiddle via 3 or 4 intermediate stations and most importantly, operated as a real railway, with correct dispatching (via an internal phone system and local Stellwerke) and running the trains most realistically. I happily spent a good hour or more over the weekend watching it. 

It helped that the modules were to a consistently high standard and gelled together as one entity. 

 

But apparently I was in a very small minority as it was a. 'Foreign rubbish' and b. Boring. I get personal preference for a given era or scale or prototype, but to simply ignore very high standard modelling on that basis seems very rude, bigotted and ignorant. 

Hi Alan

 

I have over the years developed an aversion to layouts I cannot connect with, be it subject matter, or scale etc. I know this appears bigoted it isn't it is just my taste has narrowed. If the people who own, build and operate layouts I am not interested in are having fun with their hobby, that is excellent and I am the one who is possibly missing out.

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As a consequence of this thread I had a few thoughts and drew up the options grid below for a forthcoming post on my blog. At the time I thought it would be easy to see where I fitted into it; then realised it isn't! Across the hobby spectrum my knowledge/ability varies from pretty advanced to definitely low but well above dunce, e.g., the finer details of wagon brake gear, underfloor coach gubbins, etc. Additionally even where my knowledge is good on a topic, that varies by company, era and region.

 

There are some modellers at the apex of our hobby who will obviously fit mostly down the right hand column but will (possibly) have rows where it falls left of that. The grid does not even touch on areas like shunting versus just watching trains circulate.

 

 

modeller type grid web version.jpg

Edited by john new
Photo(s) found and replaced post crash.
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4 hours ago, CloggyDog said:

Regarding long layouts, one of the best layouts I've seen at a UK exhibition (in the 40 years I've been going to them) was the superb P87 modular layout at Warley some 10 years ago, brought over by a collective of Dutch and German groups, iirc. Epoch 3 DB practise. Some 100ft long, fiddle to fiddle via 3 or 4 intermediate stations and most importantly, operated as a real railway, with correct dispatching (via an internal phone system and local Stellwerke) and running the trains most realistically. I happily spent a good hour or more over the weekend watching it. 

It helped that the modules were to a consistently high standard and gelled together as one entity. 

 

But apparently I was in a very small minority as it was a. 'Foreign rubbish' and b. Boring. I get personal preference for a given era or scale or prototype, but to simply ignore very high standard modelling on that basis seems very rude, bigotted and ignorant. 

 

Well... I was one of those who was somewhat underwhelemed by that layout. Not because it's foreign - although I model British outline myself, I enjoy looking at overseas prototypes at exhibitions - but because it was, well, a bit dull. Although it was well-modelled, it was rather uninteresting operationally. I'm not sure whether that was because they were actually having problems with it, or whether the trains really were spaced out to near-prototypical timings, but very little seemed to be moving. And, although the modules were well built, none of them were interesting enough to hold my attention for long without something moving on them.

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4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m also mystified as to why “system layouts”, a piece of railway with multiple stations, are so rare at UK exhibitions.

 

The British Way is to occupy half of the layout are with fiddleyards, and an area equal to the entire layout with operating space ....... it’s just plain odd that 90% of larger layouts adopt this convention.

 

Part of it, of course, is that even a big layout needs a lot of compression to have two (or more) stations. At prototype distances, you wouldn't even get two stations in the same exhibition hall, let alone on the same layout. So this kind of concept does conflict a bit with a desire for realistic operation - you can have realistic and prototypical train movements within a single station, but it's really difficult to have realistic and prototypical train movements between a pair of adjacent stations.

 

Fiddle yards in general are something of a British thing, though. And that in turn is a consquence of our preference for smaller layouts to fit smaller houses (by comparison with most US model railroaders), and enthusiastically promoted by CJ Freezer. Having an off-scene space to represent "the rest of the railway" is an effective means of making the most of limited space and allowing for prototypical operation within the visible section. Like most cliches, it became a cliche because it works.

 

Maybe we have got a bit stuck in that rut. Maybe we should have more fiddle-less layouts at exhibitions. But I'm not convinced that doing without them ought to be the norm.

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I get the impression that 'uninteresting', regarding both both the operational aspects and genre choice of layouts, is becomes a rather overworked and overused term of dismissal and damnation. And possibly an excuse for not appreciating modelling standards.

 

The issue is that it, and similar terms, are very subjective and very personal. And judgements regarding the entertainment value of layouts, and as to whether they are dull or not, are unlikely to be agreed by all.

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“Maybe we have got a bit stuck in that rut. Maybe we should have more fiddle-less layouts at exhibitions. But I'm notconvinced that doing without them ought to be the norm.”

 

Having a ‘rest of the world’ magazine is often a good idea even on a ‘system’ layout, so I’m not advocating getting rid of them altogether, merely suggesting the application of a bit more imagination to produce some different-style big exhibition layouts.

 

A station either side of a circuit, with a train magazine underneath each/both, and some linking gradients, for instance, is perfectly possible.

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1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

A station either side of a circuit, with a train magazine underneath each/both, and some linking gradients, for instance, is perfectly possible.

 

Dorehill St Stevens, by Soar Hill Model Railway Club, does that. It's a very impressive layout, in many ways. It certainly attracts the crowds at an exhibition. But precisely because it's a great big oval, with viewing on all four sides and stations on two of them (and some fairly obvious 90 degree turns to get round the corners), it can't really avoid looking like a train set on steroids. That's not necessarily a problem in itself, because all modelling is a compromise of some sort and this compromise is necessary for this kind of presentation. But somehow, it doesn't quite work for me as well as a more traditional one sided big roundy roundy like Gresley Beat does. 

 

http://www.svmrc.co.uk/layouts.php

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I think that is the one I’ve seen.

 

It is very good, but I thought a tiny bit crowded/busy for my tastes. Do the same thing, but make it a single-track rural railway, with passing places, and shorter trains, and it would feel spacious. More scenery, basically.

 

But, it is good value for money.

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11 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

Can you please explain further  - I'm not disagreeing, just interested in your thoughts

 

I did start writing a lengthy missive about standards when the sum isn't greater than the constituent parts and why the exhibition scene is changing from traditional club shows to smaller one day events with more smaller/more manageable exhibits, but fundamentally there are layouts being built and exhibited that at best only copy previous attempts but lack the hindsight to improve them, or worse still where the builder rebuffs anything that remotely criticises their efforts (not even it terms of build quality but something like pointing out something missing such as there ought to be ballast shoulders) and says "it's my train set/rule 1" or says they really can't be bothered to learn a new skill.

 

It's something that I feel uneasy talking about but it's a factor within the hobby that is seen in the most public of arenas on GMRC where by comparison the judging on Bake-off is vastly more critical. By comparison though alot of what passes for shows in other countries will have tinplate layout standards so our quality is definitely higher, but there is currently and probably has been a swathe of identikit layouts where the better Ashburtons or DRS stabling points are lost amongst inferior ones.

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11 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

Can you please explain further  - I'm not disagreeing, just interested in your thoughts

 

Something your own Canyon and Chinese layouts have/ had, and something I've struggled to add to my own Yakima Valley layouts due to slavishly following the prototype so went a bit freelance with the current one and included one, is this:

 

IMG_20191117_162427~3.jpg

 

Some people use the ten second rule to judge running qualities, when in fact that's probably the same amount of time someone would look for the initial spark to draw them in. But sadly some layouts don't seem to have that gem to pique someone's interest at first glance.

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16 hours ago, 298 said:

 

Something your own Canyon and Chinese layouts have/ had

 

Blimey - you've followed my career in layout building! If you're coming to Warley do please say 'Hello'.

 

16 hours ago, 298 said:

Some people use the ten second rule to judge running qualities, when in fact that's probably the same amount of time someone would look for the initial spark to draw them in. But sadly some layouts don't seem to have that gem to pique someone's interest at first glance.

 

Maybe you've hit the nail on the head here. Obviously many/most of us have niche interests and layouts which cater for our niche will attract us really whatever the standard of modelling/running. If, for example, one's interest is blue diesels then a blue diesel MPD layout will interest us - no matter what! If it's better than our efforts it will be an inspiration, if it's worse than our efforts it will convince us that our modelling is pretty dam good!

 

But once layouts move away from our niche interest there has to be something that grabs us in the first 10 seconds (other timeframes are available) or else we tend to move on pretty quickly. That's the nice thing about the 'family audience' - that don't have a niche interest - generally speaking they are open to anything and everything.

 

Going back to 'gimmicks' (or special features as I prefer to call them) - I'm glad that not all layouts have them. The things that will make my special features 'special' is that most/all other layouts at the show won't have them! Anyway, the layout is almost ready for Warley now - including 9 special features (sorry - gimmicks) and I look forward to chatting to anyone who has followed this thread.

 

 

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