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Electrofrog Points and Seep Motors


WILLIAM ADDISON
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Hello there,

 

I'm just coming back to the hobby after a few years and have recently extended my layout having made the loft a lot more comfortable.  Originally I just used the 'hand of God' to work all of my points but with the extended layout I now have I'm about to use electronic 'point movements.'  My layout is DCC and I have no concerns about wiring it as I did it last time.  However, fitting point motors is new to me but after talking to my local model shop guys and watching numerous You Tube 'how to do it' videos I think I'm ready to go.

 

But I'm NOT using DCC for the power to the points.  I'm using an analogue old Guagemaster as the power source for them for simplicity and budget.  All the track and locos will be DCC as before.  When I watched the guy from Everard Junction fitting a Seep point motor (the type I'm using)  he also connected the frog of the Peco electrofrog point (the same as all of my points) to the power at the "toe" of the point, via the Seep point motor (if I 've got that right), - this gave him much better electrical continuity and better running - but since I'm using analogue as a point motor power source and DCC as a track power source would I be mixing two incompatible systems here?

 

I'm going to watch the Everard Junction (original layout) film again but I think he was using DCC for everything.

 

Any help for a point motor novice would be most welcome please.

Edited by WILLIAM ADDISON
word missed out
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If you mean these - http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=GMC-PM1

 

The switch part is electrically separate from the solenoid "motor" connections, so you can run the point control and track from two different power sources without any problems.

 

The switch can be used to direct power to the frog, control signals or whatever you like - even on yet another separate power system, if appropriate.

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Hi

 

If your points are Electrofrog and you're using the Seep PM1 or PM4 (Note the PM2 doesn't have switching contacts fitted to it) then you can only feed one thing via the Seep motors switch such as Frog polarity   It cannot feed other items.  e.g.  You would have to add some other means of additional switching to control say colour light signals etc where the Seep is used for DC frog polarity.

 

Wire contact Pad  'F' to the point frog wire.  Tabs 'D' & 'E' have feed wires from the rails above or the DC track feed wires.   As the motor can be fitted either way around (180 degrees turned) its impossible to say that pad 'D' connects to the left hand rail or feed wire that feeds that rail and pad 'E' to the opposite rail or feed wire.  If you get a short circuit when the point is operated or a train causes a short as it passes over the frog area swap the two wires around on 'D' & 'E' connections leaving 'F' wire alone as this always goes to the points frog.

 

To note: The Seep PM 1. 2 and 4 motors need very careful fixing to the underside of the baseboard.  Its vital they are absolutely in line with the points moving tie bar above, so as they move correctly and operate the internal switching where fitted.  They are notorious for not being easy to fit correctly!   

My method is initially pre wire the motor with six wires about 60 to 100mm long each leading to a 6 way piece of terminal block. Then temporarily lay point in its final position and mark on the surface of the baseboard a spot made via the drive pin hole and with the tie bar/points switch blades held central from both sides. Remove point and drill baseboard drive pin hole to either 9mm dia centred on the marked spot or 2 x 4mm holes drilled side by side either side of the mark and across the points position, then open the two holes into one slot.  Clean away any drilling swarf and lay point in its final position.  Take a fine drill bit (about 1mm or smaller would be my choice) and with the point in one position drill a hole directly centrally in line and at the end of the moving tie bar.  Move point by hand to other side and drill another 1mm hole in line with the tie bars end.  Underneath the baseboard, with a pencil and straight edge draw a line linking the two 1mm holes, extending the line out beyond the holes each side.  This line now gives the exact position of the tie bar and point above. Fit Seep motor ensuring its centre line running along its length is in the middle of the pencil line. Also don't over tighten the fixing screws.  Fix 6 way terminal block to underside of baseboard near to point motor and wire.

Edited by Brian
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Be prepared for the included polarity switch not to work. Hopefully yours will, but when I fitted 5 to a friend's layout, only 3 frogs were powered.

We decided that if 2 did not work from new, the others could possibly stop after a little use, so we fitted microswitches to them all.

After 6 years' use on an exhibition layout, these have given no trouble at all. It only took 2 of us 35 minutes to fit these to all 5 points too.

 

Since you are using DCC, you have another alternative; a frog juicer. This does not involve the point motor at all. It detects a short at the frog & switches its polarity so fast that it is unnoticeable to the loco, operator or even the command station.

Opinion is split about these. Some do not like this because it is a reactive solution to a short circuit not a pro-active solution.

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20 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Be prepared for the included polarity switch not to work. Hopefully yours will, but when I fitted 5 to a friend's layout, only 3 frogs were powered.

We decided that if 2 did not work from new, the others could possibly stop after a little use, so we fitted microswitches to them all.

After 6 years' use on an exhibition layout, these have given no trouble at all. It only took 2 of us 35 minutes to fit these to all 5 points too.

 

Since you are using DCC, you have another alternative; a frog juicer. This does not involve the point motor at all. It detects a short at the frog & switches its polarity so fast that it is unnoticeable to the loco, operator or even the command station.

Opinion is split about these. Some do not like this because it is a reactive solution to a short circuit not a pro-active solution.

 

 

I must agree with the above.

 

I was going to fit around 15 of the Seeps to someone else's layout but the first tested failed the switch test. All the 'switch' consists of is a washer sliding over tracks on the PCB. Held against it by a week spring.

 

Must cheaper and easier to find a way of fitting a micro switch with arm alongside the motor to change the frog polarity. Easily available on eBay.

 

Good luck.

 

Dave.

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4 hours ago, Brian said:

Brian thank you so much for that.  I do really just want to power the frog alone so that would be fine.  And I found your practical advice on re-wiring the PM1 motor BEFORE going "underground" very helpful thanks.  On many of the You Tube videos they just flick over the baseboard - not possible on my layout BUT with your help I now have a very practical way forward.  - Thanks again - Mick

Mick

4 hours ago, Brian said:

 

Hi

 

If your points are Electrofrog and you're using the Seep PM1 or PM4 (Note the PM2 doesn't have switching contacts fitted to it) then you can only feed one thing via the Seep motors switch such as Frog polarity   It cannot feed other items.  e.g.  You would have to add some other means of additional switching to control say colour light signals etc where the Seep is used for DC frog polarity.

 

Wire contact Pad  'F' to the point frog wire.  Tabs 'D' & 'E' have feed wires from the rails above or the DC track feed wires.   As the motor can be fitted either way around (180 degrees turned) its impossible to say that pad 'D' connects to the left hand rail or feed wire that feeds that rail and pad 'E' to the opposite rail or feed wire.  If you get a short circuit when the point is operated or a train causes a short as it passes over the frog area swap the two wires around on 'D' & 'E' connections leaving 'F' wire alone as this always goes to the points frog.

 

To note: The Seep PM 1. 2 and 4 motors need very careful fixing to the underside of the baseboard.  Its vital they are absolutely in line with the points moving tie bar above, so as they move correctly and operate the internal switching where fitted.  They are notorious for not being easy to fit correctly!   

My method is initially pre wire the motor with six wires about 60 to 100mm long each leading to a 6 way piece of terminal block. Then temporarily lay point in its final position and mark on the surface of the baseboard a spot made via the drive pin hole and with the tie bar/points switch blades held central from both sides. Remove point and drill baseboard drive pin hole to either 9mm dia centred on the marked spot or 2 x 4mm holes drilled side by side either side of the mark and across the points position, then open the two holes into one slot.  Clean away any drilling swarf and lay point in its final position.  Take a fine drill bit (about 1mm or smaller would be my choice) and with the point in one position drill a hole directly centrally in line and at the end of the moving tie bar.  Move point by hand to other side and drill another 1mm hole in line with the tie bars end.  Underneath the baseboard, with a pencil and straight edge draw a line linking the two 1mm holes, extending the line out beyond the holes each side.  This line now gives the exact position of the tie bar and point above. Fit Seep motor ensuring its centre line running along its length is in the middle of the pencil line. Also don't over tighten the fixing screws.  Fix 6 way terminal block to underside of baseboard near to point motor and wire.

 

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4 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Thanks Peter - I'm going to look into those micro switches and that "frog juicer" - I just assumed the switches would be reliable.  It seems in this hobby you just seemingly solve one problem then you hit another!

Mick

4 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Be prepared for the included polarity switch not to work. Hopefully yours will, but when I fitted 5 to a friend's layout, only 3 frogs were powered.

We decided that if 2 did not work from new, the others could possibly stop after a little use, so we fitted microswitches to them all.

After 6 years' use on an exhibition layout, these have given no trouble at all. It only took 2 of us 35 minutes to fit these to all 5 points too.

 

Since you are using DCC, you have another alternative; a frog juicer. This does not involve the point motor at all. It detects a short at the frog & switches its polarity so fast that it is unnoticeable to the loco, operator or even the command station.

Opinion is split about these. Some do not like this because it is a reactive solution to a short circuit not a pro-active solution.

 

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3 hours ago, dasatcopthorne said:

Thanks Dave  - I am looking into this now.

Mick

3 hours ago, dasatcopthorne said:

 

I must agree with the above.

 

I was going to fit around 15 of the Seeps to someone else's layout but the first tested failed the switch test. All the 'switch' consists of is a washer sliding over tracks on the PCB. Held against it by a week spring.

 

Must cheaper and easier to find a way of fitting a micro switch with arm alongside the motor to change the frog polarity. Easily available on eBay.

 

Good luck.

 

Dave.

Thanks Dave

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4 hours ago, dasatcopthorne said:

 

I was going to fit around 15 of the Seeps to someone else's layout but the first tested failed the switch test. All the 'switch' consists of is a washer sliding over tracks on the PCB. Held against it by a weak spring.

 

Much cheaper and easier to find a way of fitting a micro switch with arm alongside the motor to change the frog polarity. Easily available on eBay.

 

I am relieved someone agrees with me. When I looked at the switch, I was sceptical that it would work reliably.

 

I posted the same on a previous thread & got told rather coarsely that they worked perfectly & I was talking complete rubbish. My own experience showed otherwise,

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