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Sir TophamHatt

6-Wheel Bogie Coaches?

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Can someone tell me more about the coaches that have 6-wheel bogies?
Sort of like a MK3 coach but 6-wheel bogies on each end.

What were they used for?

Why were they not adopted for normal use?

I don't know the official name :(

Edited by Sir TophamHatt

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Many Companies used 6 wheel bogies on coaches when the coach was heavier than usual, or when smoother running was required. Catering and sleeping vehicles were the most usual. Not that I understand the reference to BR Mk3 coaches!

 

A useful general source

Jenkinson, David (1990) British Railway carriages of the 20th century Vol. 2: The years of consolidation, 1923-53. Pub. Patrick Stephens Ltd, Wellingborough, Northants. 288 pages ISBN 0-85059-912-1.

and the earlier volume 1

 

Paul

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Things like some restaurant cars, royal carriages, sleepers etc. sometimes had 6 wheel bogies.

 

Not adopted for normal use as heavier, more expensive.

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Caledonian Railway, Grampian Corridor Stock. 

 

As paul suggests these were heavy weight coaches for a prestige service.

 

Kits are available from Caley Coaches. 

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22 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Not that I understand the reference to BR Mk3 coaches!

 

I meant long coach I suppose.

I felt if I didn't put it, someone may have thought about a short 6 wheel coach.

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When T.G. Clayton first introduced bogie carriages on the Midland Railway in the late 1870s, his 40 ft carriages were carried on 4-wheel bogies of the Pullman type, with a prominent compensating beam. For his 54 ft carriages, he used 6-wheel bogies of similar Pullman design. With the axlebox and bearing technology of the day, this was necessary to spread the weight. He still used 6-wheel bogies, but of more conventional design, when he came back to building 54 ft and then 60 ft carriages towards the end of the century; the 60 ft carriages were heavier than the 54 ft carriages of 20 years earlier: bearing technology had improved. By the time his successor David Bain came to build 54 ft corridor carriages in quantity, from 1905, the technology had moved on to the point where 4-wheel bogies could happily be used - indeed around this time the Great Western was building 70 ft 8-wheelers.

 

The LNWR came to bogie carriages a little later than the Midland but by the turn of the century had settled on 65 ft length for dining and sleeping saloons, and for the luxury stock built for the 2 o'clock Scotch Express and the Liverpool American Specials - these heavy vehicles got 6-wheel bogies, whereas the standard 50 ft corridor carriages had 4-wheel bogies. I'm not very well up on the East Coast Joint Stock, but I believe that used 12-wheelers of similar length and weight around that time.

 

It wasn't really until the last decade or so before grouping that the 57 ft 8-wheeler became a more or less de-facto standard, at least among the companies that made up the LMS group; that set a standard that lasted up to the introduction of the 64 ft Mk 1 carriage. The last 12-wheelers built to LMS designs were some 69 ft sleeping cars built in 1951; these may well be the last 12-wheelers built to run in Britain and were, I think, the only ones to run in BR blue/grey livery.

 

So, 12 wheels used when the weight on the bearings would be excessive on 8 wheels; as bearing (and lubricant) technology improved, so 12 wheels were only needed on longer and heavier vehicles.

 

Now, a 10 wheeled carriage, that's something else... What sort of carriage might have a sufficiently uneven weight distribution?

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Dunno, but its prolly built by Metrovick...

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Now, a 10 wheeled carriage, that's something else... What sort of carriage might have a sufficiently uneven weight distribution?

An L&Y Kitchen Brake 2nd, built in 1901 for the Leeds - Fleetwood boat trains. The 6-wheel bogie was under the kitchen end.

 

Jim

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7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

When T.G. Clayton first introduced bogie carriages on the Midland Railway in the late 1870s, his 40 ft carriages were carried on 4-wheel bogies of the Pullman type, with a prominent compensating beam. For his 54 ft carriages, he used 6-wheel bogies of similar Pullman design. With the axlebox and bearing technology of the day, this was necessary to spread the weight. He still used 6-wheel bogies, but of more conventional design, when he came back to building 54 ft and then 60 ft carriages towards the end of the century; the 60 ft carriages were heavier than the 54 ft carriages of 20 years earlier: bearing technology had improved. By the time his successor David Bain came to build 54 ft corridor carriages in quantity, from 1905, the technology had moved on to the point where 4-wheel bogies could happily be used - indeed around this time the Great Western was building 70 ft 8-wheelers.

 

The LNWR came to bogie carriages a little later than the Midland but by the turn of the century had settled on 65 ft length for dining and sleeping saloons, and for the luxury stock built for the 2 o'clock Scotch Express and the Liverpool American Specials - these heavy vehicles got 6-wheel bogies, whereas the standard 50 ft corridor carriages had 4-wheel bogies. I'm not very well up on the East Coast Joint Stock, but I believe that used 12-wheelers of similar length and weight around that time.

 

It wasn't really until the last decade or so before grouping that the 57 ft 8-wheeler became a more or less de-facto standard, at least among the companies that made up the LMS group; that set a standard that lasted up to the introduction of the 64 ft Mk 1 carriage. The last 12-wheelers built to LMS designs were some 69 ft sleeping cars built in 1951; these may well be the last 12-wheelers built to run in Britain and were, I think, the only ones to run in BR blue/grey livery.

 

So, 12 wheels used when the weight on the bearings would be excessive on 8 wheels; as bearing (and lubricant) technology improved, so 12 wheels were only needed on longer and heavier vehicles.

 

Now, a 10 wheeled carriage, that's something else... What sort of carriage might have a sufficiently uneven weight distribution?

Didn't at least one dynometer car have 9 wheels?

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3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Didn't at least one dynometer car have 9 wheels?

 

The NER one did, yes :) Probably the fastest Clerestory coach in the world (does it have a plaque?!).

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42 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

The NER one did, yes :) Probably the fastest Clerestory coach in the world (does it have a plaque?!).

hmmmmm ....... never occurred to me before : without the extra drag from the clerestory ( and ducket and panelled bodysides ) it might have gone somewhat faster !!?!

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10 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

An L&Y Kitchen Brake 2nd, built in 1901 for the Leeds - Fleetwood boat trains. The 6-wheel bogie was under the kitchen end.

 

Jim

 

Even number of axles, but some Mk1 catering vehicles had a B4 bogie at one end and a (heavier duty) B5 bogie at the other. Not so obvious as the earlier examples quoted of course :-)

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57 minutes ago, dvdlcs said:

 

Even number of axles, but some Mk1 catering vehicles had a B4 bogie at one end and a (heavier duty) B5 bogie at the other. Not so obvious as the earlier examples quoted of course :-)

That's probably only those with a proper kitchen - the RMBs for example were better balanced* and the MkII equivalent likewise .......... MkIIIs on the other hand had heavier ( different coloured ) springs under the kitchen end.

* better not comment on the nutrition they offered

2540.07_;_DSC_0007.JPG

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3 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

The NER one did, yes :) Probably the fastest Clerestory coach in the world (does it have a plaque?!).

It wasn't a wheel in the accepted sense. It played no part in carrying the coach, merely a disc riding on the railhead for measuring purposes. 

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6 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Isn't that actually a 9 wheeler?

If so why is it called decapod and not nonapod?:jester:

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No, 10 - hence the name!

Two four-wheel bogies plus a pair of retractable measurement wheels

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3 hours ago, Denbridge said:

It wasn't a wheel in the accepted sense. It played no part in carrying the coach, merely a disc riding on the railhead for measuring purposes. 

Like the GWR one it was derived from?

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtQrdimVIaVJEY0shTtQ5

 

 

 

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I thought that was a pedal-carriage, the spoked wheel being the one transmitting tractive force from the pedals to the rails.

 

Im sure they had penny-farthing ones in broad gauge days.

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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Re: the LMS-design sleepers - it was the 1st class that had 6-wheel bogies, the 2nd class had 4-wheel bogies.

Not sure how long the SLFs lasted but some SLS lasted into blue/grey and had ETH fitted.

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1 hour ago, keefer said:

Re: the LMS-design sleepers - it was the 1st class that had 6-wheel bogies, the 2nd class had 4-wheel bogies.

Not sure how long the SLFs lasted but some SLS lasted into blue/grey and had ETH fitted.

 

Yes, the 65 ft third (second) class 8-wheel sleepers of D2169, 25 built at Derby 1951/2, most barring two accident victims still in service in 1968; the 12-wheel 69 ft first class sleepers of D2166 built at Wolverton at the same time likewise, barring one early withdrawal; one D1926 car of 1936 retained as a substitute, so the only pre-war LMS carriage to attain blue/grey livery. Since my info is from the 1968 edition of The LMS Coach, I don't know final withdrawal dates. Early 70s? If they made it to 1976, that would be a century since the first British 12-wheeler took to the rails.

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I'm sure I saw one in the early/mid-1970s (the door handles were recessed, and very distinctive), but whether it was in service or withdrawn, I can't remember. Somewhere, I've got a fleet listing of loco-hauled coaches and NPCS that I've hung on to from that sort of time (pub. Inter City Railway Society IIRC), but can I find it? Nope!

 

I did sometimes travel by sleeper at that time, but not first class, and I think the first time I went to Scotland by sleeper from Euston was between Christmas 1976 and New Year 1977, and that train was all Mk1 coaches ....... we spent roundly 24hrs on it, stuck in various snowdrifts, surviving on packets of biscuits and hot scotch pies (those greasy ones made with minced beef) given out for free by Travellers Fare from barrows at each major station. We got to Inverness just in time to have a couple of drinks in a nearby bar, then board the sleeper to Edinburgh, our intended day out to view the city completely gone. When we got to Edinburgh, we were warned that if we stayed on for the day and for Hogmanay, we would like as not still be there a week later, the snow was coming down so solid, so we caught a daytime train, and saw drifts on the ECML that were higher than the carriages, which had been ploughed-out, but were fast refilling. Good fun was had by all!

 

Googling to try to find when they were withdrawn - the interesting point being that this 12 wheeled coach was actually built by BR in 1952, to an LMS design!  http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/398.html The fact that it was preserved in 1974 in good nick suggests withdrawn 1973/74.

Edited by Nearholmer

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