6-Wheel Bogie Coaches?

[giz]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

RTR isn't what it used to be!

 

Oh for a RTR 00 LNWR 12-wheeler!

That would have been Modern Image when it was made

[Ken.W]

9 hours ago, Titan said:

Good to know this diner was originally made by Dapol, especially with spare underframe.

 

And by Airfix before that

[BernardTPM]

As far as I remember the Airfix version was shown in the catalogue, but never made it to production; though possibly the one Dapol did was the one Airfix had started designing or tooling.

Edited November 10, 2019 by BernardTPM

[Nick Holliday]

Taking things back to the beginning, according to R. W Rush, in his book on L&YR passenger stock, their first bogie carriage, built in 1879,  although only 41' long, was equipped with six-wheeled bogies, 11' 6" wheelbase, with scarcely enough room for a cigarette paper between the two bogies. The few bogie carriages that followed until 1886 were similarly fitted, finally achieving a huge 51' in length! The bogies were not a success and were rapidly replaced by 1889.

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

Taking things back to the beginning

 

Not quite the beginning. The Midland 54 ft clerestory 12-wheelers took to the rails in 1876. Clayton had been dithering between four and six-wheeled bogies for carriages of this length; the Pullman cars of 1874 were 58 ft long but carried on four-wheel bogies.

[Nearholmer]

Lest is be thought that standard gauge railways were in the vanguard (guard’s van?) when it came to bogie coaches in Britain, I give you Festioniog Railway No.16 of 1872 https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Carriage_16

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

Taking things back to the beginning, according to R. W Rush, in his book on L&YR passenger stock, their first bogie carriage, built in 1879,  although only 41' long, was equipped with six-wheeled bogies, 11' 6" wheelbase, with scarcely enough room for a cigarette paper between the two bogies. The few bogie carriages that followed until 1886 were similarly fitted, finally achieving a huge 51' in length! The bogies were not a success and were rapidly replaced by 1889.

 

The first Wolverton 12-wheelers were nearly as knock-kneed as that L&Y carriage; they were 45 ft long over the body (not counting the vestibules, which were sort of add-ons at one end or both); these had 11'6" wheelbase bogies at 27'0" centres - just 9'0" between the bogie frames; room to squeeze the gas cylinders in! These were the original WCJS dining saloons for the 2 pm, built in 1892; they had to be modified within a year to provide gangways to the resto of the train as well as between the dining saloons, when the 2 pm became fully corridor.

 

3 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Lest is be thought that standard gauge railways were in the vanguard (guard’s van?) when it came to bogie coaches in Britain, I give you Festioniog Railway No.16 of 1872 https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Carriage_16

 

That explains why Ralph Lacy* was so cagey about the status of Clayton's two 47 ft bogie clerestory carriages of 1875, not the first bogie carriages to be built in Britain, nor the first standard gauge bogie carriages to run in Britain, but the first standard-gauge British-built bogie carriages to run in Britain!

 

*R. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Carriages Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 1986).

[Steamport Southport]

18 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

And by Airfix before that

 

It might have been started by Airfix, but Airfix had been gone about five years before the Diner appeared.

 

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green]

On 08/11/2019 at 18:54, Titan said:

Just wondering what the best route to a blue/grey 12 wheeler sleeping car is? Is the comet kit suitable? I notice the sides are available separately, would using the Hornby 12 wheel restaurant car to fit comet sides to be an option? 

Should still be available from Phoenix - if the press tools aren't worn out : sales@srg.org.uk

[Steamport Southport]

Don't bother. BSL kits are extremely dated. Apart from a few things unavailable elsewhere the range should be allowed to die. I can think of far better things to do than scribing doors and gluing bits of plastikard to aluminium bodies....

 

Don't mess around with fitting etched sides to RTR. If you can do that, fit detailing parts such as vents, brake gear, buffers, etc. and then paint it. You can build a Comet kit. I learnt that the hard way by buying loads of sides thinking it's an easy way to make lots of different coaches. Now I'm gradually using those sides by buying the rest of the parts to turn them into proper kits. Which I should have done in the first place.

 

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green]

46 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Don't bother. BSL kits are extremely dated. Apart from a few things unavailable elsewhere the range should be allowed to die. I can think of far better things to do than scribing doors and gluing bits of plastikard to aluminium bodies....

 

When did you last buy a Phoenix kit without doors ready-scribed ? ............ and, yes, the question WAS actually about one of the few things which is unavailable elsewhere.

[Steamport Southport]

44 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

When did you last buy a Phoenix kit without doors ready-scribed ? ............ and, yes, the question WAS actually about one of the few things which is unavailable elsewhere.

 

About eight years ago and I don't think they've been available since. LMS 54 foot suburbans ISTR. Still unfinished.

 

We are talking about LMS aren't we? What diagram of sleeper isn't available from Comet?

 

I don't think anyone currently does the early LMS/LNWR style versions. 247 did I think.

 

Which leaves the D1926/2166 and D1947, all done by Comet. All the later survivors were D2166 apart from 376 (D1926) which was the only pre war LMS coach to receive B/G.

 

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green]

Phoenix coaches are still available and always have been ......... but, as you intimate, lots of other players have appeared since the days of BSL and much of the range has been duplicated with ready-to-run or etched kit versions - but not all.

I can't remember what the difference was between D1926 sleepers and the post-war D2166 version : Comet seem to offer common sides for both but ONLY the former as a kit ( though the website search function doeasn't work for me and I MIGHT have missed a D2166 kit ).

[Titan]

The kit is listed as D1926/2166, so presumably you can make either version from the one kit too.

[KeithMacdonald]

Lots of 12-wheel Hornby Pullman coaches on eBay?

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/b/Hornby-12-Wheel-Pullman/122602/bn_7023494000

 

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

Phoenix coaches are still available and always have been ......... but, as you intimate, lots of other players have appeared since the days of BSL and much of the range has been duplicated with ready-to-run or etched kit versions - but not all.

I can't remember what the difference was between D1926 sleepers and the post-war D2166 version : Comet seem to offer common sides for both but ONLY the former as a kit ( though the website search function doeasn't work for me and I MIGHT have missed a D2166 kit ).

 

Are they? I've been trying to get some for years without a reply and the website only lists SR and a few GWR.

 

But as I say, they are extremely dated. They are a lot of work especially the panelled stock. Ever tried gluing bits of plasticard to make LNER Gresley panelling? I'll never do that again.

 

Comet.

 

M35  Sleeper First              D1926/2166  69'  1935

 

M68  Sleeper Composite  D1947            69'  1936

 

I also found the earlier versions. Strange I forgot about these as I actually have them...

 

M1   Sleeper First               D1705          68'   1925

 

M24  Sleeper Composite  D1781         68'    1930

 

Use this website for info and order from the Wizard one. 

 

 

http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

The main difference between D1926 and D2166 was the ventilation.

 

LMS shell or BR ridge vents, whilst D2166 had a duct on the roof similar to the BR MK1 Sleepers.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited November 12, 2019 by Steamport Southport

[Wickham Green]

23 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

... I've been trying to get some for years without a reply  .........

sales@srg.org.uk SHOULD get you a reply.

[Nick Holliday]

Another early and rather surprising entrant in the six wheeled bogies stakes was the Cheshire Lines Committee. According to a splendid article in the much missed Modellers' BackTrack, they had probably the first trains completely made up of twelve wheeled stock. They ultimately had built for them four sets of massively built coaches, six in each set, the first vehicles being delivered in 1879 from the Ashbury Raileay Carriage and Iron Company, with more arriving until by 1881 they could form complete trains using them.

CLC coaching stock was designed by one of the joint owners, the Manchester, Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway, later the Great Central, but the author suggests that another partner, the Midland, may well have provided input into the design, having produced their first twelve wheelers in1876, and had demonstrated their superior riding qualities, although visually they are different, and the massive underframe design might have come from the builders. They had a long life, all surviving to grouping, and some lasting just into the thirties.

[Compound2632]

The only photo I know is in Midland Style, tricomposite (T/S/F/F/F/F/S/T) No. 289. The body looks to be in MS&L style and neither the bogies nor underframe correspond to Claytom's Midland 12-wheelers. However, guesstimating the compartment dimensions, it is probably the same length, 54 ft.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Compound2632

[Nick Holliday]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

The only photo I know is in Midland Style, tricomposite (T/S/F/F/F/F/S/T) No. 289. The body looks to be in MS&L style and neither the bogies nor underframe correspond to Claytom's Midland 12-wheelers. However, guesstimating the compartment dimensions, it is probably the same length, 54 ft.

I was merely quoting the author, Bob Miller's idea.

Regarding length, the first batch of composities, 276-279 were probably 54' 6" long. (Many of the CLC records have been lost), the second batch, 280-291, were recorded by the LMS as being 56' 0" long.  The brake thirds of 1881 were probably 50' 0" long, as were some full thirds for the Southport service in 1884. Unfortunately the article doesn't give any lengths for the later twelve wheeled stock.