What if the MS&L absorbed the NSR?

[1165Valour]

In 1876, Sir Edward Watkin's Manchester, Sheffield & Lincolnshire Railway came very close to absorbing the small but plucky North Staffordshire Railway. The two companies had already agreed to build and operate the Macclesfield, Bollington & Marple Railway, and the endlessly-ambitious Watkin hoped the North Staffs could the first step in a future London Extension. 

 

The idea of the GCML being routed via Stoke and the Potteries is an interesting one, as well as the GCML itself being finished by perhaps 1885-90. 

 

Naming the company could be a bit awkward however. The Manchester, Sheffield & Staffordshire Railway?

[PenrithBeacon]

It would have been opposed by the LNW and wouldn't have got through Parliament. The NSR only existed as an independent railway because it wasn't in anyone's interest that it was taken over by another company.

 

Cheers

[bike2steam]

It would've been interesting, given the GNR had running rights most of the way to Stafford via the NSR. I always wanted an excuse to run an O4 over my modelled part of the SSR. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by bike2steam

[Poggy1165]

If you read Dow's Great Central, Volume 2, you will find that just such a merger was contemplated. There was a a proposal that the MS&L, LNWR, Midland and GN should jointly absorb the NSR. The LNWR wanted the NSR stripped of all its running powers as part of the deal, while the Midland wanted all four companies to be able to use the NSR free of toll. The GN and MS&L rejected both points and negotiations were broken off in the autumn of 1875.

 

The MS&L then proposed a straightforward merger between itself and the NSR. However the MS&L wanted a traffic agreement as a first step and the NSR would not agree. So quite early in 1876, the proposal was aborted, without troubling Parliament.

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Poggy1165 said:

There was a a proposal that the MS&L, LNWR, Midland and GN should jointly absorb the NSR. The LNWR wanted the NSR stripped of all its running powers as part of the deal, while the Midland wanted all four companies to be able to use the NSR free of toll. The GN and MS&L rejected both points and negotiations were broken off in the autumn of 1875.

 

 

Serendipity. My freelance fantasy Derbyshire & Staffordshire Junction Railway - a sort of Lancashire, Derbyshire & East Coast simulacrum but taking a more southerly, if no less challenging, route through the Peak District - was to be just such a joint concern. The logic to that was the resemblance of the Metcalfe station building to a MS&L design, the strongly Midland features of the Metcalfe engine shed &c., several boxes of Ratio LNWR signals, and several old engines of Triang origin - the Midland having arm's length responsibility for Locomotive matters, S.W. Johnson had secured the Locomotive Superintendency for his old mate Dugald's youngest brother, Zebedee Drummond, who in 1889 was fresh from Neilson's drawing office. (Triang-Hornby Caley 123, M7, J83, and Nellie all pressed into service!)

 

I can't recall what the justification for the Great Northern was. I expect it just wormed its way in in its usual insidious fashion.

[Hroth]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

S.W. Johnson had secured the Locomotive Superintendency for his old mate Dugald's youngest brother, Zebedee Drummond, who in 1889 was fresh from Neilson's drawing office.

 

I'm assuming he was encouraged to "move on" by Neilson's due to his tendancy to assume everything could be driven by springs?  Boingggg!!!!

 

I'm really enjoying these pre-grouping flights of fancy.

[bike2steam]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Serendipity. My freelance fantasy Derbyshire & Staffordshire Junction Railway - a sort of Lancashire, Derbyshire & East Coast simulacrum but taking a more southerly, if no less challenging, route through the Peak District - was to be just such a joint concern. 

 

Given that way back in1846 the GW had backed an idea for a Derbyshire, Staffordshire & Worcestershire Junction Railway (DSWJR). With the route Dudley-Walsall-Cannock(pre-SSR)-Uttoxeter. Would've been interesting if it went ahead. So as the GWR could've tapped into the Potteries, North Midlands and Manchester areas.  

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, bike2steam said:

 

So as the GWR could've tapped into the Potteries, North Midlands and Manchester areas.  

 

In due course the Great Western was successful in gaining access to the Potteries and Manchester, by running powers from Market Drayton and Walton respectively. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 hours ago, bike2steam said:

Given that way back in1846 the GW had backed an idea for a Derbyshire, Staffordshire & Worcestershire Junction Railway (DSWJR). With the route Dudley-Walsall-Cannock(pre-SSR)-Uttoxeter.

My layout scenario, Staffordshire Joint Committee linking the South Staffs, Cannock, North Staffs and OWW. Set in late 1950s operated by the LMR but some WR secondary passenger through workings from Gloucester/Hereford/Worcester via Walsall and the NSR to Stoke-on-Trent and Burton. 

[bike2steam]

5 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

My layout scenario, Staffordshire Joint Committee linking the South Staffs, Cannock, North Staffs and OWW. Set in late 1950s operated by the LMR but some WR secondary passenger through workings from Gloucester/Hereford/Worcester via Walsall and the NSR to Stoke-on-Trent and Burton. 

 

Funny you should say that, but it's similar to what I had in mind for the layout I'm building, the idea being based on the Cannock area, with a little inclusion of 'what if'. 

[James Harrison]

I've just dug out my copy of Bob Yate's "South Staffordshire Railway", Volume Two.  Several efforts were made to build a Cannock- Wolverhampton direct line between the 1840s and 1860s, mostly with GWR involvement.  If you allow that as a what-if then how about the Cannock- Rugeley section of the Chase Line, intended originally to run to Uttoxeter?  A bit of chicanery there would get the GWR well on the way to the Potteries, Peak District and points north.