GWR wooden post junction signal photos and kits

[billtee]

I have waited AGES for my lovely working Dapol GWR home signals in O gauge (1/43 scale), and having finally received them I am very pleased, but it appears that I might not live long enough before Dapol (if ever) produces left- and right-hand junction signals, so I might have to try building them myself. I would snap up three lefthand and 1 righthand signals if they ever make them, but glaciers move faster than Dapol production!

However, if I can’t wait forever, and decide to make my own signals (despite rather shaky hands these days), I do require photographs to give me a good idea of how they look. I have searched the internet for suitable photos, but most are rather blurry and/or so distant that the pictures are not very useful.

Can someone point me to nice sharp junction signal photographs please? Preferably wooden post signals, though metal post junction signals seem to be easier to find.

I am also trying to find a supplier of all the metal hardware required to model signals. There used to be a supplier of etched brass kits in O gauge, but I think he has retired or gone out of business. Can anyone help me here too?

Thank you all for any help in these matters,

Bill

[jim.snowdon]

The two well known suppliers of semaphore signalling parts in 7mm scale are Scale Signal Supply (who don't have an online presences) and Wizard Models/51L (who do).

 

 There are various general signalling books about, but in terms of GWR signalling, there was a book on the subject in the OPC range, authored by Adrian Vaughan. I doubt if it is still in print, but a search of the second hand book trade will probably find a copy.

 

Jim

Edited November 10, 2019 by jim.snowdon
To correct author reference.

[Echini]

HI Bill,

I have a similar problem in that I am trying to model several specific signals and, although the Dapol ones are brilliant, they are not the ones that I want. The cost is also a factor.

So, I am building my own with the help of a small 3D printer. They include a wooden junction signal, but in my case in 00 gauge. I found great detail in a book by Oxford Press - "A Pictorial Record of Souther Signals" by G. Pryor (available on Amazon). Along with a wealth of detail, this book included two photographs of the actual junction signal at Hayling Island that I am modelling!

I know that they do a version for LNER Signals, not sure if they do one specifically for the GWR - but I would thoroughly recommend these books for their great detail, photos and diagrams.

I envy you working in 0 gauge, I am also building working ground signals, which are only 10mm high!

Good luck

Robin

 

 

[Stephen Freeman]

Jim,

Wrong author, it was by Adrian Vaughan. Pretty sure it is out of print but secondhand copies do become available from time to time. The Dapol ones are not brilliant in my opinion (of course you might expect me to say that), there are quite a few glaringly obvious shortcomings, most of which have been identified in other threads. If you want something that is an accurate portrayal of a prototype you really only have two choices, make it yourself or pay somebody to make it for you.

[The Stationmaster]

And there is of course the recently published 'GWR Signalling Practice' from the Great Western Study Group but it is expensive (£45) although it is generally pretty good on the sort of information modellers want (although not so good on some aspects of GWR signalling practice despite its title).  But it does have the necessary drawings you need to build such a signal.

 

Personally I would look for a secondhand copy of   Vaughan's book.  It suffers a little from being early in the field of books on signalling so is a little light on some areas of detail but is generally error free and most important from the OP's viewpoint it includes various Reading Works original drawings (albeit not to scale but in most cases with some dimensions noted).  

 

Copies currently listed by Abe Books -

 

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/great-western-signalling/author/adrian-vaughan/

[Echini]

[Stephen Freeman]

10 minutes ago, Echini said:

I know and indeed have books covering most of the Companies, acquired over the years of building signals etc.

[billtee]

Adrian Vaughan was a GWR signalman for many years - I have read his “Signalman’s Morning”, etc and they are fabulously evocative and wonderful reads!

I will give Scale Signal Supply a telephone call and see if they can help me, and I’ll have a look at Wizard Models/51L. One of them hopefully will be able to help, I am sure.

The ‘trouble’ with books is that they are wonderful reference items with FAR more info than most people would ever require unless they are learning to become signal engineers. All I need are some GA drawings (I’ve built a live steam 3.5” gauge GWR 45xx, and many items of rolling stock, so I can find my way around drawings!) which I can make my model signals from. I have several of Jim Russell’s books, mostly photos of rolling stock, but I will keep an eye out for his book on signalling.

Since my layout is not an accurate (or even near accurate) model of a particular place (Rule 1 definitely applies!), I am placing my starters and home signals in ‘appropriate’ positions, though they are nowhere near where REAL signals would be positioned - I don’t have the space!

Anyway, everyone, thank you all very much for your help and interest in my posting. I know one thing - No-one will EVER call me a signalling expert! I’m “Mr Muddle Along” - if it looks about right, that’ll do!

Thank you all very much - you are all FAR better modellers than I will ever be!

Bill

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, billtee said:

Adrian Vaughan was a GWR signalman for many years - I have read his “Signalman’s Morning”, etc and they are fabulously evocative and wonderful reads!

 

Bill

He wasn't actually a GWR Signalman - he's not that old!!  (And neither am I - he was at one time one of my Signalmen.).  And he is a great raconteur although you will at times find what I would politely describe as 'a bit of embroidery' in some of his tales.

[jim.snowdon]

On 8 November 2019 at 10:21, Stephen Freeman said:

 

Wrong author, it was by Adrian Vaughan.

Thanks. I wasn't in a position to check my copy at the time.

 

I will correct my original post accordingly to keep the record straight.

 

Jim

[Stephen Freeman]

I still do not understand why Dapol have made the errors, after all it is surely just is easy to get it right as wrong.

Not complaining for myself of course as it does not really affect demand for something reasonably accurate.

[Hal Nail]

https://invertrain.com/product/gwr-3-lower-quadrant-home-junction-signal-2/

 

Are these any good?

[Stephen Freeman]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

https://invertrain.com/product/gwr-3-lower-quadrant-home-junction-signal-2/

 

Are these any good?

Yes of course they are, though you still have to make them yourself or have them made and can still be improved by the substitution of Modelu finials and if working lights are required then you might consider purchasing some etched brass parts to make hollow posts by which time you might consider it more cost effective to just purchase a suitable fret of etched parts from Wizard.

[Stephen Freeman]

A few photos of previously completed signals by way of illustration

[billtee]

Wow! All these lovely people willing to help me! I am truly grateful for all your help!

I rang Scale Signal Supply (SSS) asking for a kit, but the lady just passed me to her husband, and he was not very helpful at all, just saying he didn’t keep stocks of kits and that they would have to be made! (Yes, of course, I thought!) He then ‘suggested’ I go to one of the big exhibitions and ‘if I am early enough, I could buy one from SSS there’, which is no doubt true but I cannot get to exhibitions because I am unable to walk very far now! Grrrr!

I had a look at the Invertrain link and found that Invertrain get their signals from Scale Signal Supply, so they aren’t any good. I have found Invertrain good at taking your details, credit card details, etc but then you wait MONTHS before actually getting anything. Invertrain just act as sellers for lots of companies, and usually have to wait for the companies to produce the item you want (before taking money from your credit card!). So although I have used Invertrain several times in the past for things, I try to avoid him if possible.

I had a look at the Wizard Models website and have found their website not a lot of use as there are hardly any photographs, so I will be telephoning them today for my signals. A description of parts is NOT much use - what exactly is “heavy counterweight”? I know what a counterweight lever is, and that there are different sizes, but just a description without a bit more info isn’t good enough! I do NOT like buying through the internet because you only see a picture (if you’re lucky!) of the item, you do not get to pick up, turn over, inspect anything!

Anyway, everyone, thank you all very much for your help - I’ll get there eventually and have some lovely working signals on my layout.

All the very best,

Bill

[Echini]

I bought a small 3D printer from Amazon and made my own bases and signal poles. I then used Wizard parts for things like the semaphore arms and balance arms. See details under "Signals". I agree that Wizard don't always have photos but I did find that they were very helpful when I phoned them to try to find what I was looking for.

While my signals are 00 gauge, one of the nice things about 3D printing is that you can scale it in "Cura", 3D slicing program. Happy to share the files for the wooden single signal or the wooden junction signal.

Regards

Robin

[JimC]

On 10/11/2019 at 19:36, Stephen Freeman said:

after all it is surely just is easy to get it right as wrong.

If only that were true:-)

[Stephen Freeman]

1 minute ago, JimC said:

If only that were true:-)

Apparently not I'm afraid. If Bill is unable to get to exhibitions (I too find walking and more particularly standing for long periods problematic these days, which is one of the reasons I don't go to exhibitions as either a punter or a seller), then Internet is really the only option. Model shops, if you can find one, are unlikely to stock Wizard parts or anything else that isn't manufactured in volume. Lots of things are only ever made to order, so expecting a one-man band to stock every single thing ready to go is likely to be met by disappointment. Signals are a case in point, it's always best to model a particular prototype signal, there was and is a great variety which cannot be catered for by a one size fits all solution.

If you are lucky Andrew (Wizard) may have some ready built simple signals, which he can supply by return of post. Though if you want working lights and motorisation then you perhaps need to be looking elsewhere and be prepared to have to wait for it to be built.

[Junctionmad]

I am building a whole series of 7mm gwr signals , including working ground discs. To date they are all tubular versions but I’m now doing a wooden splitting signal with CO arm 

 

I use 3D printing for the lamp , lamp bracket , arm spindle bracket , balance arms and balance arm brackets and I also 3D the bracket iron work , though I use a hidden brass support to strengthen the structure . The base plate and servo mount are all 3D printed. This is all much faster then bashing brass ONCE the cad and initial prototypes are done. 

 

pla is quite strong. Though even with a 0.2 mm nozzle o couldn’t see it being feasible for 4mm ( but a resin printer would kill it ) 

 

I use combinations of wizard etches and Scale Signal. I do find that SS frets contain serious errors. The biggest one being the doll pole holes on the modern tubular brackets are positioned on the centre line , which means the arm is too far inside the railing and either ends up inside the railing or hits it. 
 

I agree it’s very very hard to buy anything from Scale signal. , even at exhibitions he forget to bring stock and its hit and miss , of course he cant take credit cards either. It’s rather unfortunate ( this being a family friendly posting ) 

 

on the other hand wizard do most of the stuff you need and have good online presence. 
 

Lots of research needed for signals but almost every combination you think off had been created by the prototype so it’s hard to go too far wrong 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Junctionmad

[Stephen Freeman]

We are moving next week (fingers crossed) not too far it should be added but it should give me a bit more space so I can to try out the 3D printer I bought and put together nearly 12months ago! However, call me old-fashioned but I still prefer Brass or Nickel Silver whenever possible. As for Scale Signal Supply, I have only ever bought from Invertrain but only rarely, so I can't really comment, other than what I bought was good.

 

I do use 3D printed servo mounts when appropriate, so rather than buying them I am looking forward to printing my own.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Stephen Freeman
addition

[Echini]

As I work in 00 gauge, I am quite jealous of those who work in 0 gauge! However, even with a 0.2mm nozzle, 3D printing in 4mm works very well for things like wooden poles and bases although I have had to use Wizard for semaphore arms and balance arms. It is even possible to print the poles with a 2mm hole up the middle for the wires for the signal lamp. I have also 3D printed ground disc signals just 10mm high with working balance arm and light.

 

[simonmcp]

On 15/11/2019 at 17:12, Echini said:

As I work in 00 gauge, I am quite jealous of those who work in 0 gauge! However, even with a 0.2mm nozzle, 3D printing in 4mm works very well for things like wooden poles and bases although I have had to use Wizard for semaphore arms and balance arms. It is even possible to print the poles with a 2mm hole up the middle for the wires for the signal lamp. I have also 3D printed ground disc signals just 10mm high with working balance arm and light.

 

That is amazing work. I have just got a 3d printer from Aldi and was wondered if I could make signals. Your excellent work has inspired me.