SDJR pigeon specials

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi,

 

A Gresley full brake used to make fairly regular appearances in the usual SDJR picture albums. Hopefully someone can provide an image???

 

Presumably on pigeon specials from wherever north of Bristol?

 

Would the Hornby Full Brake model be suitable and what other vehicles were used?

  

Cheers

 

Jack

[jwealleans]

If it came from the north east or east coast then a Gresley full brake is the most likely candidate.  Some diagrams were built with fold down internal shelving which could be used for pigeon baskets.

 

For a long distance working then the vestibuled bogie vehicle woudl be most likely.  There were non-gangwayed bogie and 4 wheel vehicles built with similar shelving.

 

 

I've added a representation of the folded up shelving here.  I think Hornby's BG would be an acceptable representation, there aren't any major external differences between those with and without shelving I can think of.

[Guest Jack Benson]

3 hours ago, jwealleans said:

If it came from the north east or east coast then a Gresley full brake is the most likely candidate.  Some diagrams were built with fold down internal shelving which could be used for pigeon baskets.

 

For a long distance working then the vestibuled bogie vehicle woudl be most likely.  There were non-gangwayed bogie and 4 wheel vehicles built with similar shelving.

 

 

I've added a representation of the folded up shelving here.  I think Hornby's BG would be an acceptable representation, there aren't any major external differences between those with and without shelving I can think of.

Jonathan,

 

As an NE ignoramus, what is the origin of that lovely model?

 

And thanks

 

JB

[jwealleans]

Very kind, thank you, Jack.   That is a Roger Chivers kit for a BY, 4 wheel passenger brake van, built for the Great Eastern section of the LNER.  One still exists on the North Norfolk railway.

 

They are often referred to as 'pigeon brakes', but that's a bit controversial - see here for an alternative interpretation.

 

I'll only comment that the LNER official drawing says 'Fitted with shelves for pigeon traffic' and leave it at that.

[Iain.d]

12 hours ago, jwealleans said:

If it came from the north east or east coast then a Gresley full brake is the most likely candidate.  Some diagrams were built with fold down internal shelving which could be used for pigeon baskets.

 

For a long distance working then the vestibuled bogie vehicle woudl be most likely.  There were non-gangwayed bogie and 4 wheel vehicles built with similar shelving.

 

 

I've added a representation of the folded up shelving here.  I think Hornby's BG would be an acceptable representation, there aren't any major external differences between those with and without shelving I can think of.

 Thats very nice.

 

Regards,

 

Iain

[Iain.d]

13 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

Hi,

 

A Gresley full brake used to make fairly regular appearances in the usual SDJR picture albums. Hopefully someone can provide an image???

 

Presumably on pigeon specials from wherever north of Bristol?

 

Would the Hornby Full Brake model be suitable and what other vehicles were used?

  

Cheers

 

Jack

Hi Jack,

 

I’m aware of a couple of images of Gresley full brakes in trains shown on the S&D. A few examples being:

 

·      Up Pines Express on Monday, 1 August 1960 (Mike Arlett & David Lockett - The Somerset & Dorset in Colour, p.122)

 

·      7.18pm Bath – Templecombe goods on Wednesday 22 May 1957 (Ivo Peters - Somerset and Dorset in the Fifties - Volume 2: 1955-1959, p.138) (Also recorded in Martin Smith’s book No.4)

 

·      11.40am Bournemouth – Bristol on 6 August 1965 (Alan Hammond - Heart of the Somerset & Dorset, p.78) (Might be a Thompson one)

 

They were also to be seen occasionally on the 3.35pm/3.40pm Up Mail. So I think a Hornby one would be just fine.

 

I don’t know of any in pigeon specials but I’d be surprised if they weren’t used at some time.  From the images I’ve seen of pigeon specials on the S&D they seem to be made up of predominantly LMR 50ft parcels stock (both panelled and steel sided, with the steel sided being more common), GW Siphons (both internal and external framed), at least one standard passenger carrying vehicle (for the train staff) and often a former ambulance coach rebuilt as a D2129/D2130.

 

I am in the process of building a pigeon train (for my yet to be built layout) and intend to include a Thompson Full Brake in my formation! A Gresley one will likely be included too.

 

Regards,

 

Iain

Edited November 9, 2019 by Iain.d
Clarity

[Guest Jack Benson]

 Hi Guys,

 

I hope to fund/find a reasonably costed source of pigeon carriers  in 4mm for the purpose of replicating their railway use. If Hourby can source excellent wicker baskets (thanks Mikkel) then pigeon carriers can be next?

 

An email to whoever regulates pigeon racing should result in dimensions of a standard realease carrier.

 

JB

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Jack Benson
Picture better than a thousand words

[Compound2632]

The release of racing pigeons from their baskets would make an interesting and novel working layout feature...

[phil_sutters]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The release of racing pigeons from their baskets would make an interesting and novel working layout feature...

Are you planning on training midges to fly in the flight pattern of released pigeons!

Edited November 13, 2019 by phil_sutters

[queensquare]

Not sure how you would replicate this on a model!!

 

This is from the Bath Chronicle in the mid-1930s, thoughts on the identity of the stock on the left would be much appreciated.

 

Bath Midland yard and Templecombe lower yard were popular places for release of the pigeons. I would love to assemble a pigeon special for my 1920s model of Bath. Does anyone have any idea when these trains started running?

 

Jerry

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Ex-LNWR full brake and/or parcels vehicles - the lack of waist panels together with the toplights are distinctive. That the pigeons are off to Dudley is confirmatory evidence! 

 

The nearest vehicle, with guard's ducket, sliding doors, and, I think, cove roof is almost certainly a 50 ft full brake to D380, of which ten were built c. 1907 [D. Jenkinson, LNWR Carriages (2e, Pendragon, 1995) plate 114]. The further vehicles all appear to have full elliptical roofs, so could be of several diagrams. The most likely, since most numerous , would be 50 ft or 42 ft vehicles to D375 and D382 respectively, built 1907-1910 and 1911-1923 [ibid, plate 119 and Appendix 1].

 

As far as I can see, pigeon racing took off in the late 19th century - some info here. The Midland was handling this traffic (by passenger train guard's van) by at least 1890, instructions to station staff here [Midland Railway Study Centre Item No. 09395]. By 1909, station staff were evidently getting careless, provoking the wrath of the fanciers [ibid Item No. 26940]. Here's the schedule for conveyance of pigeons for the Derbyshire Federation 1913 season [ibid Item No. 29028] - note that by now the traffic is complete vans or special train. Here's the diagram for 45 ft bogie clerestory vans fitted with shelves for pigeon traffic, 1907 [ibid Item No. 88-C0166].

 

I've had a look in my Ian Allan reprint of the Timetables of the Midland Railway, July, August, and September 1903 but I can't find a rate for this traffic, only for live pigeons for eating. Elephants could be conveyed in horseboxes (charged at the horse rate per stall occupied), in cattle trucks at 9d/mile, or in covered carriage trucks at 1s/mile.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Compound2632

[queensquare]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Ex-LNWR full brake and/or parcels vehicles - the lack of waist panels together with the toplights are distinctive. That the pigeons are off to Dudley is confirmatory evidence! 

 

The nearest vehicle, with guard's ducket, sliding doors, and, I think, cove roof is almost certainly a 50 ft full brake to D380, of which ten were built c. 1907 [D. Jenkinson, LNWR Carriages (2e, Pendragon, 1995) plate 114]. The further vehicles all appear to have full elliptical roofs, so could be of several diagrams. The most likely, since most numerous , would be 50 ft or 42 ft vehicles to D375 and D382 respectively, built 1907-1910 and 1911-1923 [ibid, plate 119 and Appendix 1].

 

As far as I can see, pigeon racing took off in the late 19th century - some info here. The Midland was handling this traffic (by passenger train guard's van) by at least 1890, instructions to station staff here [Midland Railway Study Centre Item No. 09395]. By 1909, station staff were evidently getting careless, provoking the wrath of the fanciers [ibid Item No. 26940]. Here's the schedule for conveyance of pigeons for the Derbyshire Federation 1913 season [ibid Item No. 29028] - note that by now the traffic is complete vans or special train. Here's the diagram for 45 ft bogie clerestory vans fitted with shelves for pigeon traffic, 1907 [ibid Item No. 88-C0166].

 

Many thanks Stephen for an extremely interesting post, the schedule for 1913 shows two specials via the S&D from the Derbyshire federation which would presumably have been predominantly Midland stock.

 

The train of mainly ex- LNWR stock from Dudley in my picture above begs the obvious question of what loco brought the train into Bath. Post  WWII Pigeon specials brought all sorts of rare visiting locos to Bath including Halls, Granges, 43xx, 28xx etc as well as less common Midland region types. Might it have brought the odd LNWR visitor perhaps? Personally, its enough of an excuse for me to build something to add to the roster!! 

 

Jerry

[Compound2632]

I suppose that 1930s train might have been worked through from Dudley by a worn-out Prince of Wales 4-6-0 but for early 1920s, I'd have thought through working by a LNWR engine and crew most unlikely - they'd have needed a Midland pilotman all the way from New Street. 

[queensquare]

43 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I suppose that 1930s train might have been worked through from Dudley by a worn-out Prince of Wales 4-6-0 but for early 1920s, I'd have thought through working by a LNWR engine and crew most unlikely - they'd have needed a Midland pilotman all the way from New Street. 

 

I agree but I do have an etch for a Prince of Wales........

 

Jerry

[Penlan]

As Compound2632 points out, LNWR stock worked all over, the first two are Weymouth,
The third photo is Cornwall, post grouping and not LNWR stock.
The trains were long too - I suppose I should say 'consists' but ughh.

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

The pigeon hampers at Weymouth look as if they're to be loaded onto the steamer for release somewhere in France - releases from continental Europe were banned in 2007 for fear that the pigeons might bring avian flu into Britain, though the risk is very low. There was no similar attempt to outlaw migratory birds. (Sounds to me like a piece of knee-jerk Euroscepticism. I suspect that in due course the paperwork required even for a British bird re-entering British airspace will kill off any chance of a resumption.)

[Oldddudders]

As noted, release of the birds was undertaken by railway staff in most cases. The classic error was to release them at dusk, whereupon they would simply find the nearest place to roost! This was not the fanciers' idea of their sport!