30 years since the fall of the Berlin Wall

[DavidB-AU]

On 10/11/2019 at 01:10, Steamysandy said:

Strangely enough photographing steam was apparently a regular thing .There's a DVD titled Steam to the Borders which was a record of a British Group going round the various narrow gauge lines by bus just before the wall came down.

I've seen film of the End of West German steam at  Rheine in 1977.On one of the Special trains a group have a load of photos--- of East German Steam!

 

I know somebody who went to East Germany several times in the 80s specifically to photograph steam. Most of the DR staff didn't care for politics and were happy to show off their beasts. He was shown around several loco depots and other facilities. On one occasion he was in a signal box when the signalman pointed out a rather shabby car parked on the nearby road and explained it was the the local Stasi but he shouldn't worry about it. Apparently the local secret plod would automatically assume that a stranger driving a car with Berlin plates and openly carrying a West German or Japanese camera was from headquarters and were just trying to show they were doing their job!

 

Cheers

David

[Steamysandy]

A native of Magdeburg lived nearby for some time.  He had seen quite a bit but he had kept in touch with someone in Magdeburg.

One of his observations was that if the Russians could have put wheels on it,the Cathedral would have went East as well!

[Ian Morgan]

12 hours ago, readingtype said:

Sorry, questions, please forgive me: Dare I ask what was in the briefcase?

 

I believe the briefcase would have contained all the passports of the train's occupants, along with all the official travel forms. These would be carefully checked and any full stops or commas on the passport had to match those on the travel documents. Reading other online accounts of the military train, there might also have been a bottle of whisky to assist the Soviet officer's eyesight during the checking.

 

 

[Ian Morgan]

Another point of interest, it seems that the Soviets built their war memorial in Berlin before the city was divided up between the occupying forces, and it ended up being in what became West Berlin. So, every day, a Soviet military 'honour guard' had to cross into West Berlin to stand watch at the memorial.

 

 

[Ian Morgan]

The Soviet military also had to come into West Berlin to take their turns guarding Rudolf Hess and others in Spandau Prison.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Poster and sticker I bought at Haus am Checkpoint Charlie in about 1981.

 

Caption reads:

"So können Sie herübersehen und so. Unsere Verhaltensweise kann entscheidend Ihr Denken beeinflüssen."

With a slightly free translation "They can look so and so. Our behaviour influences their thoughts."

 

As a student, I was on a tourist trip to Berlin from the Ruhr, and so the only English person in a coachload of Germans. At the border, my old-style stiff board passport stuck out of the pile being collected for the armed officials at the front. "Who is this?" "Me" ... worrying pause ... "Alles in Ordnung".

[pH]

7 hours ago, Ian Morgan said:

Another point of interest, it seems that the Soviets built their war memorial in Berlin before the city was divided up between the occupying forces, and it ended up being in what became West Berlin. So, every day, a Soviet military 'honour guard' had to cross into West Berlin to stand watch at the memorial.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Ian Morgan said:

The Soviet military also had to come into West Berlin to take their turns guarding Rudolf Hess and others in Spandau Prison.

 

 

I believe Berlin was technically an open city, and the occupying powers were supposed to have free access throughout the whole city. I was told that the Russians would send a military car through the border each day just to drive around a bit in the west. 

[phil-b259]

33 minutes ago, pH said:

 

 

I believe Berlin was technically an open city, and the occupying powers were supposed to have free access throughout the whole city. I was told that the Russians would send a military car through the border each day just to drive around a bit in the west. 

 

Not quite - Berlin was not an 'open city' - nor did the Potsdam agreement envisage it being such. The Soviets were quite keen on the idea - but that was mostly because it would mean the Western allies would have to withdraw and a Communist takeover of West Berlin would be easy to arrange without western military forces about!

 

However because a formal piece treaty was not concluded till 1991, the provisions of the Potsdam agreement stayed in force and each of the 4 military allies had the freedom to conduct patrols / inspections in each others sector as they wished. Naturally the military administration of the host sector would pay close attention to the activities of their cold war 'enemy' - as did the East German military although they had to be careful as the western allies refused to have anything to do with them citing the Potsdam agreement.

 

One of the other side effects of Berlin being 'frozen' in 1945 as far as administration goes but not mentioned thus far was airlines not headquartered in the UK, France, the USA or the Soviet Union were BANNED from flying into Berlin airports. The East Germans got round this by building the airport at Schofield outside the Berlin city boundary and thus free from the Potsdam restrictions, but airlines like the West German based Lufthansa could not fly into Tegal

 

 

.

[Allegheny1600]

Sorry if this isn't really relevant to the 'wall' coming down which I do clearly remember from news reports at the time. My trip to the east would have certainly been harder if not impossible without it though as less than a year later, I undertook a 550 mile cycle ride from Krakow in Poland, through eastern Czechoslovakia to Budapest in Hungary - over the course of ten days or so.

As it was so soon afterwards, all the infrastructure over there was 'as is' but it was noticed that German 'speculators' were already buying up property in Poland, maybe buying back ancestral homes? There were a fair few BMWs and Mercedes around too, as well as plenty of choking 'Trabbi's' and other two-stroke engined vehicles.

Another interesting thing was seeing all the damaged walls from bullets etc in Budapest - marks from 1956 or WW2?

Although I didn't make it to East Germany, my bike did! We had to wait a day in Poland so our bikes could catch up with us as we had flown over but the bikes all went overland.

 

Many years previously, while travelling the world with my parents, we got to know a German couple who had a 'Barkas' ("goes like Sputnik" he would say!) or similar type of camper van. He was known as the 'Berliner' so I presume that is where he came from, east or west I do not know but he managed to drive over to Morocco every winter! That was in the 1970s.

 

As a fan of German steam, there are certainly plenty of colour photos taken of DDR steam running around until the 'end' in 1988 but even then, they still did plenty of 'plandampf's. I only wish I had made it there prior to 88!

Cheers,

John.

[Steamysandy]

The combination of the two Germany's railways didn't take place until 1994.I transited through Berlin en route to Poland in May 1992 and went on a steam hauled railtour to Meiningen Works in October 1993. There was still a different feel about things even then.

That was my last European trip. Locos were 44 1093 and 50 3501 with SSN 23 023 from Meiningen back to Rotterdam ( all three locos on the train from Meiningen to Arnstadt!!)

[Ian Morgan]

Not just Berlin, but the "Iron Curtain" severed railways across Europe.

 

A line between Bavaria and what is now called Czechia was built when there was a good relationship between the two, and the station at Bayerische Eisenstein was actually built straddling the border. When the 'Iron Curtain' was constructed, it ended up passing right through the main booking hall. The blue and white railing, and a stone in the floor of the booking hall now mark the border:

 

 

 

 

There is a nice little railway museum on the German side, more photos in my Flickr album:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by Ian Morgan
spolling misteak

[On The Patapsco]

My family lived in West Berlin 1980-87 and then came back in 1995. I graduated from high school at the Kennedy Schule in Zehlendorf.

 

Some of my earliest memories involve taking the S-Bahn and U-Bahn to Friederichstrasse in order to cross the border. My parents had originally come to Germany as Mennonite missionaries and after a stint in Poland (when I came along) had developed relationships with East German Lutherans and Baptists while Dad studied at the Freie Universitaet in West Berlin.

 

We lived in Tegel and I attended school across West Berlin in Zehlendorf. We had to take the U-Bahn through Zoo in order to catch the school bus. For some reason, my parents let me take the U-Bahn by myself in the first grade and I learned pretty early on how to navigate the system. I think that speaks to how “small” West Berlin felt at that the time. I don’t think most parents would allow their first graders ride the subway by themselves these days.

 

By the 1980’s, the Reichsbahn no longer ran steam into East Berlin, but I remember seeing from the S-Bahn locomotives used as stationary boilers in the area around Warschauerstrasse and Ostkreuz (though I could be wrong).

 

I also have a fondness for the Soviet-built “Ludmillas,” which were the primary power for the Interzone trains through Zoo.

 

In 1981, I fell off the platform at Zoo, while my mom was handing luggage through the compartment window to my Dad on a trip to Holland. A friend laid on the platform and pulled me up. Mom was checking me out after the train left Zoo, because she knew she could get off at Wansee before it went into East Germany. My first memory is her checking me out in the railcar’s loo. I was two.

[Bernard Lamb]

9 hours ago, On The Patapsco said:

 

 

I also have a fondness for the Soviet-built “Ludmillas,” which were the primary power for the Interzone trains through Zoo.

 

 

Me to. They were an important part of GDR motive power for many years.

I have a memory of a time when there was major flooding in the Dresden area and several of these machines were placed above the piers on the bridge outside the main station to help prevent the bridge being washed away. 

Bernard

[nexusdj]

On 27/12/2019 at 15:25, Bernard Lamb said:

Me to. They were an important part of GDR motive power for many years.

I have a memory of a time when there was major flooding in the Dresden area and several of these machines were placed above the piers on the bridge outside the main station to help prevent the bridge being washed away. 

Bernard

2013 floods , there's a video on YouTube showing the loco's on the bridge : https://youtu.be/sU9mTtqVXsM

[jcredfer]

On 11/11/2019 at 09:53, Ian Morgan said:

 

I believe the briefcase would have contained all the passports of the train's occupants, along with all the official travel forms. These would be carefully checked and any full stops or commas on the passport had to match those on the travel documents. Reading other online accounts of the military train, there might also have been a bottle of whisky to assist the Soviet officer's eyesight during the checking.

 

 

 

I was posted to Berlin for 3 years and did Train Duty Officer on numerous occasions.  The briefcase mentioned contained passports, the travel permission documents documents and...  err, the occasional bottle of vodka.  These were marched down the platform, accompanied by the Train Sgt Major and the Sgt Major Interpreter on either side, to the Russian Officer and his clerk.  Once salutes had been exchanged, the office was entered and the clerk would check that the travel documents matched the passports [when I say matched, I mean precisely that, a comma out of place or spelling mistake would result in rejection and the whole cherbang came to a halt!]  Fortunately the people typing out the documents for the train were aware of the ramifications and made sure they were well checked before they got to the train.  

 

{NB. travel by car down the roads required the same documents and I did experience being sent back to the checkpoint for a correct document, 3 times.  Eventually an American checkpoint guard grabbed the three passports from the Brit guard and typed an accurate document, which allowed me to travel past the checkpoint.}

 

The return train journey had the same procedure at the other end [Braunschweig], with the same Russian Officer as the outward journey.  Perhaps I should note here that the Officers were complete gentlemen as would be expected.  It is perhaps also worthy of note that their hospitality meant that the bottle of Vodka, as a present to him, for his services to the passports, was gratefully accepted.  It was also custom that a gifted Vodka, bottle should be shared until completely finished and on the return journey, the Russian would probably have a similar bottle as a reciprocal gift. Marching back along the platform, in a straight line, required a touch of concentration, as did climbing up from the ballast into the coach.

 

During the checking of the documents, the British Military Train was not stopped next to the platform, but on a through line further away, hence the climb from the ballast.  I was led to understand that the reason was [in part, at least] due to the passing of the Orient Express.  I never saw what might have been the Orient Express, so that may be myth and mist.  What I did see was the reaction of the soldiers to the first female Train Duty Officer, a delightfully enthusiastic WRAF Officer, for whom I had been allocated to be on the train, in case there might be an adverse reaction from the Russians.  As it turned out there wasn't any problem at all and she got on with the Duty accordingly.  Interestingly there was a rule, that apart from the 4 Russian armed guards, one at each corner of the train, no other Soviet personnel were allowed in sight of the train.  So, when she had marched back to climb back into the coaches, she encountered a minor problem - the steps up to the coach were rather more than the WRAF skirt hem would allow.  Undaunted, the gallant lass hitched said skirt a little and hauled up the steps.  Job done!  However on the return journey, she climbed down and marched down the platform as expected - however, despite the restrictions on other personnel allowed to be there, it was clear that the news of the skirt hitch-up had travelled and there were faces all around the platform, regardless of the risk of Soviet retribution.  When it came to the time for her to return to the train, I plonked my hat on and got to the coach door, unless assistance might be advisable.  I needn't have bothered, as this young lady had clearly been exercising the little grey cells.  Having completed the march back down the platform and crossed the tracks to the coach door, she looked at the two Warrant Officers, either side and gestured with her head to her elbows and said "lift", which they did - straight up to the top step.

 

The British Military Train went on daily for many years and was wonderful experience and opportunity for contact with the Russian military, who were very similar to ours, as might be expected.    ......  All because of a train....

 

Regards

Julian

 

  

[Bernard Lamb]

On 31/12/2019 at 20:48, nexusdj said:

2013 floods , there's a video on YouTube showing the loco's on the bridge : https://youtu.be/sU9mTtqVXsM

Thanks for posting the link.

It does show just how high the water level was.

I was in Grimma a bit further north at the time and the whole town centre was under at least 2 metres of water with the main square and the district near the river being cut off from the rest of the town. 

Bernard

[Ian Morgan]

Just came across this BBC Archive video of the British Military Train from 1982

 

https://www.facebook.com/BBCArchive/videos/449031052136597/&show_text=0&width=560

 

 

 

 

 

[jcredfer]

Lovely reminder of a delightful conundrum, of life in Berlin, in the early 80s.   I've not come across that one before, very nice, thank you.

 

Julian

 

[johnofwessex]

When the wall came down I was living in Bristol.  One evening I was walking home over the A4 bridge at the West end of Temple Meads when I heard an apalling noise like a lawnmower.  I turned round just in time to see a Trabant heading towards Bath.  A few weeks later I nearly wrecked one as it pulled out of the Safeway - now Morrisons car park in Clevedon (On the site of Clevedon Station) without looking.

[John Tomlinson]

I made some tourist visits to East Berlin in the '80's, and in answer to an earlier question posted some pics on my Flickr site a few days ago coincident with the end of WW2 (which per comments above wasn't!). See https://www.flickr.com/photos/51265696@N03

 

There's also some early '90's shots around Saalfeld with diesels as the Saalebahn line was being rebuilt - these are in the Album "Saale Valley, Thuringia", and some in the area in "Plandampf".

 

An example from the Saalebahn shots;

 

This is from February 1993 and is a Berlin - Munich train crossing the site of the old border point just south of Probstzella.

 

John.

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by John Tomlinson
clarification

[Northroader]

My daughter was in a school exchange with a German school, and the German girls parents came over as well, so we got to know them, and were invited over there for a few days. One trip we were offered sticks in my mind, looking at my diary 15/8/90. They lived in Mellrichstadt, a small town on the NorthEast corner of Bavaria, the Rhon region. This was served by a branch from Schweinfurt, how we got there,  a through line truncated after the wall appeared. On to a country bus and head east, after about three miles passing where the iron curtain had been. The bus bowled through past an apron, what looked like toll booths all abandoned. The double barbed wire fences and wide strip between them were still in place, snaking over the country, with a distant watch tower.  The bus kept going, now in Thuringia, to the next large town, Meiningen, and out we got. There was the strangest sensation, highly subtle, like our presence had been sensed by everybody, so I felt a bit like a Martian, if you understand, just being westerners i suppose we stood out. The kids were all fascinated by the Trabbies, and I noticed a couple of Russian soldiers riding round in a sort of jeep. Everywhere still seemed to be heated by coal fires, as there was a distinct acrid smell in the air. I’ve always wondered since, as we were the same in the forties and fifties, was the atmosphere the same back home then, and I just didn’t notice it? Into the station, an old stone building, and the platform was stone setts which didn’t look like they’d had any attention from pre WW2. Train was dull green bogie opens, with, yes, a class 132 on the front. Off we went, and there’s a puzzled German family wondering why their English visitor had his nose pressed to the window glass, and drooling from the corners of his mouth. Meiningen works, that’s why, with a lot of fabled kriegsloks outside, Not in steam, I’m afraid, just rusting hulks. We ended up at Eisenach, like a lot of German towns, very attractive old buildings in the centre, and lunch. This is the birthplace of J.S. Bach, and we went to a small museum, with a long lecture by an earnest young lady, me stood respectfully with a vacant smile, my German is nonexistent. Then the return journey, DR being far more interesting than music to me.

The line was rebuilt, so it’s now through trains again Schweinfurt to Meiningen.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Northroader

[APOLLO]

Hamburg HBF June 1971, a DR loco on a Hamburg Berlin train - I was a bit worried taking these pix !!!

 

 

 

After the wall came down a mate and I drove from Rotterdam to Berlin having caught the ferry from Hull. The check point at the border was still there but you drove straight through as it was unmanned. Berlin was great then - both sides seemingly on permanent holiday !! The "East" was pretty grim though the people were happy & friendly - especially in East Berlin when we had a walk around.

 

Brit15

[Joseph_Pestell]

A good friend of mine went just before as he could see it coming. I am somewhat envious as it must have been an interesting trip.

 

But Berlin still on the "bucket list" when we get out of the current problems.

[John Tomlinson]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

My daughter was in a school exchange with a German school, and the German girls parents came over as well, so we got to know them, and were invited over there for a few days. One trip we were offered sticks in my mind, looking at my diary 15/8/90. They lived in Mellrichstadt, a small town on the NorthEast corner of Bavaria, the Rhon region. This was served by a branch from Schweinfurt, how we got there,  a through line truncated after the wall appeared. On to a country bus and head east, after about three miles passing where the iron curtain had been. The bus bowled through past an apron, what looked like toll booths all abandoned. The double barbed wire fences and wide strip between them were still in place, snaking over the country, with a distant watch tower.  The bus kept going, now in Thuringia, to the next large town, Meiningen, and out we got. There was the strangest sensation, highly subtle, like our presence had been sensed by everybody, so I felt a bit like a Martian, if you understand, just being westerners i suppose we stood out. The kids were all fascinated by the Trabbies, and I noticed a couple of Russian soldiers riding round in a sort of jeep. Everywhere still seemed to be heated by coal fires, as there was a distinct acrid smell in the air. I’ve always wondered since, as we were the same in the forties and fifties, was the atmosphere the same back home then, and I just didn’t notice it? Into the station, an old stone building, and the platform was stone setts which didn’t look like they’d had any attention from pre WW2. Train was dull green bogie opens, with, yes, a class 132 on the front. Off we went, and there’s a puzzled German family wondering why their English visitor had his nose pressed to the window glass, and drooling from the corners of his mouth. Meiningen works, that’s why, with a lot of fabled kriegsloks outside, Not in steam, I’m afraid, just rusting hulks. We ended up at Eisenach, like a lot of German towns, very attractive old buildings in the centre, and lunch. This is the birthplace of J.S. Bach, and we went to a small museum, with a long lecture by an earnest young lady, me stood respectfully with a vacant smile, my German is nonexistent. Then the return journey, DR being far more interesting than music to me.

The line was rebuilt, so it’s now through trains again Schweinfurt to Meiningen.

The acrid smell would have been Lignite, the "Braunkohle", mined opencast all over the DDR and northern Czech Republic. Most of the DDR mines were shut down within a few years of re-unification on environmental grounds.

 

The stone sets were also quite common, mainly in towns, but sometimes on main roads. The trick was to drive at speed which managed to even out the ups and downs. I remember learning this in Nordhausen when on  a trip circa.1992. My Saab 900 Turbo driven from the UK sounded awful as I crawled along, we were then overtaken by a Trabby going like hang - he knew how to do it!

 

John.

[jcredfer]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

Hamburg HBF June 1971, a DR loco on a Hamburg Berlin train - I was a bit worried taking these pix !!!

 

 

 

After the wall came down a mate and I drove from Rotterdam to Berlin having caught the ferry from Hull. The check point at the border was still there but you drove straight through as it was unmanned. Berlin was great then - both sides seemingly on permanent holiday !! The "East" was pretty grim though the people were happy & friendly - especially in East Berlin when we had a walk around.

 

Brit15

 

You were right to be worried about the pictures, many have spent very uncomfortable days and serious bruising, for doing that (and less, even).

 

Julian