Zimo Activedrive brake not working on both units in multiple

[Dmudriver]

I have a number of DMUs on my layout and like to operate them in multiple.  I use Zimo and ESU Loksound decoders.

 

I have altered the brake function on the Zimo chips to F8 and have increased CV4 to 250 to get the minimum deceleration rate when using the brake function.

 

However, I find that when I run 2 Zimo fitted units in multiple the brake function only works on one of them.  Obviously sound and speed do work together as I would expect. 

 

The work-around is to use them both on what I would call "normal" drive, where CV4 is directly related to CV3 so then they are slowing down together, but it is a waste of the brake function.

 

Is there a CV I can switch on to enable the brake function to work on both at the same time?

 

Any help or advice will be gratefully received.

 

 

Rod

Edited November 8, 2019 by Dmudriver
spelling

[NIK]

Hi,

 

How are you consisting them together?.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

 

[Paul80]

Have you turned on the active braking function on the non sound decoder 

 

See this thread

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=41518.0

 

NGM 

 

[Nigelcliffe]

I'd hazard a guess its "Advanced Consisting", and the issue is the need to set which Function Keys respond to the consist address and which to the loco address. Typically set in CV's 21 and 22.   CV21=128 will move FnKey8 to being controlled by the Consist Address.

 

Nigel

 

[Dmudriver]

On 08/11/2019 at 21:12, NIK said:

How are you consisting them together?.

 

Hi Nick.  I use a Lenz system and normally I use double heading (DH) but have also tried multi-ing up (MU) but neither has worked.

 

On 08/11/2019 at 21:41, Paul80 said:

Have you turned on the active braking function on the non sound decoder 

 

Hi Paul80.  I think my wording may have misled you - they are both sound decoders (MX 644 and 645) but, yes, they've both got the active braking turned on.  It works with no problem on each unit individually.

 

23 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

I'd hazard a guess its "Advanced Consisting", and the issue is the need to set which Function Keys respond to the consist address and which to the loco address. Typically set in CV's 21 and 22.   CV21=128 will move FnKey8 to being controlled by the Consist Address

 

Hi Nigel.  I thought it might have something to do with CVs 19 - 22 but I couldn't understand the Zimo instruction manual, I'm afraid!!  Anyway, I tried what you suggested, having read all the CV values first: CVs 19, 20, 21 and 22 were all =0.  I altered CV 21 to =128 on both units and, once I'd sorted out the directions (!!), I set the consist number at 10 the first try and then 11 the 2nd try.  In neither case did F8 work at all - on either unit!!  Fortunately, they were only running slowly so I was able to rescue the situation and nothing untoward happened!!  

 

I'm doing something wrong but I'm afraid I can't see it.  Should CVs 19  to 22 be  =0 before I alter anything?  I'd have thought if the speed and sound on both are controlled by either DH or MU then there should be a value in there somewhere.   Is it perhaps that I should be switching on the CV relevant to F2 which is where the braking was originally?  I changed it to F8 by doing CV402=8 (at the same time as 408=4 and 404=2).  

 

Thank you all for your responses.  As you can tell, I'm still learning, so any help/advice is gratefully received.

 

 

Rod

 

 

[Nigelcliffe]

Lenz "DH" system is "command station consist", not an "advanced consist".   I think the Lenz MU is similar.
In a Command Station Consist, the command station sends out identical speed commands to each loco.   How function keys work is set in the command station, and is whatever Lenz allows - my reading of an LH100 manual is "not a lot of flexibility". 

 

In an Advanced Consist, the decoders are programmed to respond to their Consist Address, and the command station sends instructions to one address, the consist address.  The command station is unaware of the consist existing (it is just a loco address to the command station), or how many locos might be in the consist.

 

 

I think with Lenz, you have to setup Advanced Consists manually.   Don't use "DH or MU" on the Lenz throttles for Advanced Consists.

 

Try the following, initially in one of your units.  Use Programming on the Main, because to use it in practise you need POM:

1 - set CV21=128.   That should mean that FnKey8 on the Consist Address works.

2 - set CV19=22  (or any other value you want from 1-99).  22 is the Consist Address.

Now call up address 22 on the throttle and drive the loco (go gently! given the brake issue).  If things work as I anticipate, F8 should operate the brakes.

        ( Technically, the consist address can be any from 1-127.  But, its a "short" address, and

           Lenz only uses 1-99 as "short", and anything from 100 upwards is "long".  So the short

           addresses from 100-127 are not going to work, hence use values 1-99.).

 

If the first unit works correctly, then its going to work for the second unit: 

3 - as with the first, CV21=128

4 - CV19 = 22

Now both should move together, and F8 should work on both.  
If the units are moving in opposite directions, then add 128 to the value in CV19 in one of the units, thus CV19= (128+22) = 150.

 

To break (clear) the consist, call up a loco on its "real" address, and using Programming on the Main, set CV19=0.  Repeat setting CV19=0 for the other loco with its own "real" address.   

 

 

If that lot works then it may be doing what you need.

Later, there are more tricks which can be explored, such as:  deciding which other functions should be on the consist controlled address (set in CV21 or CV22).  Experimenting with the four-digit (long) consist address offered by CV20 (assuming firmware in decoders is more recent than when this feature was added by Zimo) - that might allow one unit to just run on its long address (no need to change anything), and then add the other unit to the same long address by putting that address into CV19+20.  

 

 

 

Note that an Advance Consist is persistent; once programmed, it stays programmed (stays when loco taken off track, put on another layout etc..) until it is cleared with CV19=0.    The values in CV21 and 22 can be left set to the desired function behaviour for the loco in question.

 

 

- Nigel

 

[Dmudriver]

HI Nigel.  Thanks for that - it was very useful - and it's worked!!!!  I've had 3 units in the consist!!

 

I've just done it but need a bit more time to play around with lights, sound, etc  I have a feeling (from what little I did) that switching engines off, for example, won't work as the units are set up at the moment.

 

Also I have the lights wired so that I can have reversible lights on the outer ends of a consist and I suspect they won't change in the consist mode.

 

However, I'll have a play around and decide exactly what other functions I do want to work over which vehicles in the consist.  Should I come back on this sub-forum or go onto  the Discussions sub- forum?

 

Once again, though, thank you for your help.

 

 

Rod

[Nigelcliffe]

Rod, 

 

now you've got the basics working,  the extra bits:

 

CV21 and CV22 control which functions are active on Consist Address, and which are active on Loco Address.   You combine the options you want, add the values together, and that's the result for CV21 or CV22.   Lights (usually on FnKey0) are in CV22;  bit zero controls the forward direction, bit 1 the reverse, so you need both for those: CV22=1+2=3.

 

The functions which are not under Consist control (in CV21+22) remain under the loco address control.    So, as you currently have things, engine on/off (typically FnKey1) or horn (typically FnKey2) will be on the locomotive address, not the consist address.  

 

I was intrigued by CV22, bit 6 in the Zimo manual, so have just had a play with it.  If you have a version37 (or higher) decoder, then by setting CV22 bit 6 (and other bits needed in CV21 and CV22) interesting things happen.   With a Consist address set (CV19, and optionally CV20), then the loco will respond to either the Loco Address or the Consist Address - just need to set the address not being used to speed Zero.  
So, if there is a standard consist of two specific locos, they can be given a "permanent" consist address, and just use the consist address when ready to drive as a consist.  Or use loco addresses when driving separately.  No programming required once initial setup is done.   I can think of pros and cons to this approach, depends very much one the approach one has to organising locos, which consist with which others, etc.. 

Zimo decoders can have their firmware upgraded (read firmware version in CV7 + CV65 ), it needs Zimo hardware, or a Zimo dealer to do the upgrade.   So, if the CV22 bit 6 stuff would be useful and your decoders are not at a high enough firmware, they can be upgraded. 

 

 

I don't know which of two sub-forums stuff goes into.

 

- Nigel

 

[Dmudriver]

Hi Nigel.

 

This is going to get interesting, I feel - in the best possible way!!

 

I have 6 DMUs which I run in multiple/consist.  4 are fitted with Zimo decoders, the other 2 with ESU Loksound decoders.  The marker lights operate by F0 which, as is general practice, switches front and rear lights (reversible) for when running solo.  Headlights, where fitted, operate on F10 and are also reversible.  When I want to run in multiple, however, I switch off F0 and switch on F21 or F22 which control the front or rear lights on the front or rear units in the consist respectively.  These are also reversible.  I want to continue this with the Zimo consisting - ignore the Loksound decoders for the moment!! **

 

I've done a quick check tonight  [quick, because it's a bit chilly in the shed!!!]  I've set up the front and rear lights of 2 units using the "real" address as above and then set them up as a consist.  I found that, when I use the consist address, the lights do reverse on change of direction.  That is without adding anything to CV 21 or 22.  I'll do more running and checking tomorrow, however.  I'll also look at what other functions I could operate as a consist: sound increase/decrease seems one likely candidate, as well as switching sound on/off.

 

As for CV22 bit 6, my initial reaction is probably that it wouldn't be suitable for what I want to do as during an operating session any unit could be part of any consist.   So far, I've not found it too onerous to alter, on the Main, CV19.  It helps that, once in CV21/22, those functions won't need altering.

 

As I said above,it's all very interesting!!  I'll do some more testing and report back on the results.

 

Thanks again, Nigel.

 

 

Rod

 

**   I plan to replace those with Zimo in the future.

[Nigelcliffe]

ESU Advanced Consists should be the same as Zimo for functions F0 to F12 (CV19, CV21, CV22).  How higher functions operate in consists is decoder maker-specific.  

 

Lights will change direction because the locomotive changes direction.  The CV21/22 just controls whether the on/off switch is at the Consist or Loco address.    So, if you don't want the lights to change direction, you need to change the function mapping of the lights so they don't change on a change of direction. 
(There may be a way with the Zimo Swiss Mapping to do something clever - particular keys to turn different lights on/off, and a second "modifier" key which determines direction).  

 

Your use suggests that CV22 Bit6 isn't helpful, so stay away from that one !

 

 

- Nigel

 

[Dmudriver]

I'm back again, having done some testing/playing(!!).  I've coupled 3 units together and they all run well together and brake together.  I turned the sound on on each unit individually and turned on the outer lights on the 2 outer units individually.  Those change with the direction, so I'm happy with how the lights work and it's no real problem to set them up before I form up the consist (just like the real thing, really!!)

 

What I do want to work together, though, are functions F1, F5, F6, F7, and F8,

 

Have I calculated this correctly, please, Nigel?  I add together 2 (F1) + 16 (F5) + 32 (F6) + 64 (F7) + 128 (F8) = 242.  242 is therefore the number I enter into CV 21 on each unit, instead of the 128 I have at the moment?

 

I then want to also use F27 and F28 in the consist.  Looking at the manual, CV22 only allows up to F27.  I could easily reallocate F27 and F28 to F26 and F27 - but how do I enter them into the decoder, please?  **

 

As for the ESU advanced consisting, I've just got 2 units with ESUs in, so I'll just run those 2 with each other until I get Zimos for them.

 

 

Rod

 

EDIT     **  Having reread the manual, do I just enter 64 into CV22 on each unit?  

[Pete the Elaner]

I am finding this very useful.

A while back, I tried advanced consisting 2 Legomanbiffo class 37s but found drivelock only worked for 1 of them when I tried to give them full beans without increasing speed.

I was looking for a solution & it seem this may be along the right lines.

[charliepetty]

Send the one back that has no drivelock and we will re-blow it Free of Charge.    Charlie

[Pete the Elaner]

10 minutes ago, charliepetty said:

Send the one back that has no drivelock and we will re-blow it Free of Charge.    Charlie

I appreciate that, Charlie but in my opinion, both are working normally. If I thought there was an issue with yours/Ian's product, I would contact you privately instead of shouting about it in public. 

 

They both respond to drivelock when controlled individually, but when consisting, only the lead loco locks.  I believe there is nothing wrong with the sound projects & I apologise if I gave that impression.

I spoke to Ian about it at a show some time ago (I can't remember where) but it seemed that this was something he had not tried.

 

I use NCE PowerPro & it seems to know a little about advanced consisting because when I address the lead loco, the display indicates that it is a consist. Both locos respond to certain operations (speed) but drivelock (F8) does not seem to be one of these, The information in this thread leads me to believe that a simple CV change can cause  F8 to respond to commands sent to the consist address.

 

I find this type of thing quite interesting.....

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, Dmudriver said:

I'm back again, having done some testing/playing(!!).  I've coupled 3 units together and they all run well together and brake together.  I turned the sound on on each unit individually and turned on the outer lights on the 2 outer units individually.  Those change with the direction, so I'm happy with how the lights work and it's no real problem to set them up before I form up the consist (just like the real thing, really!!)

 

What I do want to work together, though, are functions F1, F5, F6, F7, and F8,

 

Have I calculated this correctly, please, Nigel?  I add together 2 (F1) + 16 (F5) + 32 (F6) + 64 (F7) + 128 (F8) = 242.  242 is therefore the number I enter into CV 21 on each unit, instead of the 128 I have at the moment?

 

  

 

not quite:  Your mistake is F1 is bit 0, so decimal 1.   The rest is correct:  F5 is bit 4, so decimal 16, F6 is 32, F7 is 64 and F8 is 128.  Add together and its 1+16+32+64+128 = 241

 

Quote

 

I then want to also use F27 and F28 in the consist.  Looking at the manual, CV22 only allows up to F27.  I could easily reallocate F27 and F28 to F26 and F27 - but how do I enter them into the decoder, please?  **

 

As for the ESU advanced consisting, I've just got 2 units with ESUs in, so I'll just run those 2 with each other until I get Zimos for them.

 

 

Rod

 

EDIT     **  Having reread the manual, do I just enter 64 into CV22 on each unit?

 

 

For Zimo, it says CV22 bit 7 moves all of F13 through to F27 onto the Consist Address (its all of them, or none of them).   To do that requires value for bit7, which is 128.   And yes you need to map F28 to a lower number. 

You don't want a value of 64 in the total calculation for CV22 in a Zimo; that turns on the auto-consisting feature, which we discounted as not useful for your running earlier.       

 

 

Pete:   I don't have enough experience of ESU to be confident about this: however, if they work as I anticipate following the usual consist conventions, then if you want F8 to work on the consist address, that's bit 7, so takes a value of 128, thus CV21=128.    That's all assuming its done with just Programming On Main to setup the Consist in CV19.      BUT, NCE's Consist management tools on the throttle can complicate things, as they have a combination of "advanced consist" sent to the decoder (CV19) and some command station logic to "help the user do things".   So, you might want to put this to an NCE forum (US ones may be better as they consist things a lot) to find out how much the NCE Consist management might help or hinder this process.   

 

 

 

- Nigel

[Dmudriver]

Hi Nigel.

 

Thank you for that information.  I've spent a pleasant hour or so resetting CVs and I now have a 3-unit consist which does all I want, all together.  It's fantastic!!!  I'm going to do a video of the 4-car arriving in the station, shutting down, being uncoupled and the 2 parcels cars being started up and driven away separately, leaving the 2-car passenger unit in the platform.  That will then start up and move off.  It'll be on my layout thread - link below.

 

The next job will be altering the CVs on my other Zimo-fitted stock (a Class 115 4-car DMU, a Class 03 and a Class 08) so that the functions are similarly numbered to the new ones - mainly so that I don't confuse myself.  Only the 115 will run in multiple with anything else (usually one of the 2 single parcels car as 5 is the maximum number of vehicles I can fit in platforms and sidings) but it will be useful having the same functions all numbered the same on each item of powered stock.

 

Thanks again for your help, Nigel.  I have got some other queries relating to the Zimo decoders, but it will probably be a week or two before I get round to trying to sort those out.

 

 

Rod