London-Glasgow passengers choose rail over air

[Andy Hayter]

I've used a laptop on Easyjet but  I accept it is a less than comfortable experience.  You have to open it out to almost flat, prop it on your belly with the screen top resting on the back of the seat in front.  Then you have to hope they don't go into recline mode.

[lmsforever]

20 hours ago, woodenhead said:

HS2 will connect London with Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds and places inbetween, then some services will head north up the WCML for example which is less congested but still at 125.

 

HS2 is to relieve pressure on the southern half of the WCML and offer faster journeys from Manchester and Birmingham.

 

XC does offer journeys to Birmingham which is very good, but as I've alluded to elsewhere, it is a very poor service for the passenger, it needs lifting like TPE has done with it's services.

 

Careful with the quotes you've merged your words with mine.

Sorry about that 

[lmsforever]

Can HS2 be justified at the cost and also  many people will be forced to travel an hour into London and have to use the tube to get on an HS2 train .That is not progress I read that season ticket sales are dropping so maybe the commuter services will have spare seats  but that is in the future.Services to the north are extremely well patronised because the stations they serve on the way surely that is what railways are for  connectivity ,as is said in Modern Rialways all the and speed is not a be and end all.Posted rom the sand pit in my garden !

[chris p bacon]

2 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

Posted rom the sand pit in my garden !

 

Why does your Sandpit have to use BOLD

 

 

[lmsforever]

Touched wrong button at least it can be seen

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, lmsforever said:

......many people will be forced to travel an hour into London and have to use the tube to get on an HS2 train .....

What, at gunpoint or whatever? Mmmmm?
 

Most of the current IC trains heading north from Euston don’t stop until they’re much further north.

You have to into London to catch them today, unless you choose a different routing.

 

[Pete the Elaner]

12 hours ago, lmsforever said:

many people will be forced to travel an hour into London and have to use the tube to get on an HS2 train .

Why?

For most in the home counties this is already true. They would simply use HS2 instead of the WCML.

It would still relieve pressure on the WCML.

Since we were originally comparing rail with air for London-Glasgow, let's look at that.

I went to ModelRail Scotland on Saturday this year. Flights from Luton & Birmingham were at unsuitable times (they were pretty good in the week but not on Saturday), so this left me a choice of driving to Heathrow or catching the train. I live within walking distance of Milton Keynes station but driving to Heathrow & flying from there was quicker & cheaper.

 

Regarding HS2:

There will be a large interchange at Crewe. The last time I looked, this was well served by the WCML.

The quickest route to Glasgow for me will therefore be to catch a train on the WCML to Crewe then HS2 to Glasgow. This would be quicker than travelling to London & changing there.

Similar is true for somebody travelling to London from somewhere in Cumbria, Lancashire, Cheshire or Merseyside not served by HS2: get to Crewe & use HS2 from there.

[Zomboid]

HS2 will improve connectivity, because the longer distance services on the WCML will not have to cater for people doing London - Manchester etc, so it's likely that more trains heading north will be able to stop at places like MK than at present, and might even have vacant seats when they do so.

[caradoc]

13 hours ago, lmsforever said:

Can HS2 be justified at the cost and also  many people will be forced to travel an hour into London and have to use the tube to get on an HS2 train .

 

My regular WCML journey is between Oxford and Glasgow. Post HS2 I will be able to get to Old Oak Common in less than 1 hour and change there to an hourly service to Glasgow, as opposed to Cross-Country to New St and a two-hourly Glasgow train from there (and similarly in reverse of course). So HS2 will give me a faster, more frequent journey, and relieve also both the southern section of the WCML and the Reading/Birmingham corridor. Everyone's a winner !

[Bucoops]

On 18/11/2019 at 08:34, Edwin_m said:

Obviously the usefulness of the travel time for doing work depends on what work you do - but I'm very envious if you don't have to do paperwork on a laptop to account for all the computers you've fixed!  

 

No paperwork required - head office can tell when I've done it as the regional office I have visited stops whining. For 5 minutes anyway.

[Enterprisingwestern]

23 hours ago, Zomboid said:

HS2 will improve connectivity, because the longer distance services on the WCML will not have to cater for people doing London - Manchester etc, so it's likely that more trains heading north will be able to stop at places like MK than at present, and might even have vacant seats when they do so.

 

Assuming HS2 prices are not at a premium, what are the chances of it being the same cost as the WCML?

 

Mike.

[Legend]

On ‎18‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 09:27, lmsforever said:

When I travel to Glasgow there are always people working on laptops plus many ordinary travellers  ,but its the number of passengers that leave or join at every stop that is amazing .Planes cannot obviously do this, surely the train is the cost effective way to move multiple numbers of passengers throughout the UK and investment must be made into the system.Internal flights will be declining due to climate worries except for those to the Scottish Islands  ,rail is the most efficient way of moving  people around our small island. So shout from the roof tops  rail is best tell your friends neighbours .  

 

Try going from just outside Swansea to just outside Glasgow and you will find that rail(and public transport in general ) is not that efficient at all . I reckon the best I could do it in was 9 hours. Thats probably about the time to drive it , but going by plane from Cardiff with a hire car at the Swansea end you can cut the time to 4 hours . So I wouldnt be mounting the stairs to the roof just yet. And you'd be surprised to know that air/ hire car is usually less expensive than rail.

The only issue is the dreadful FlyMayBe who were usually late. Still they are off the route now to be replaced by Loganair in the New Year .  Meanwhile its hirecare to easyJet through Bristol . Still faster than train. We have got a long way to go before domestic air travel is no longer necessary.

[lmsforever]

Loganair are indeed a good airline but I saw an item in the news about increases in fares on their new routes so keep an eye on the news in December ,internal flights could be cut back in the green future but we will see .

[Zomboid]

It may well be at a premium, high speed rail usually does command a premium. It'll still be possible to use the WCML I would imagine, or pay a bit more to use HS2 to go faster.

[Ron Ron Ron]

10 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

Assuming HS2 prices are not at a premium, what are the chances of it being the same cost as the WCML?

 

5 hours ago, Zomboid said:

It may well be at a premium, high speed rail usually does command a premium. It'll still be possible to use the WCML I would imagine, or pay a bit more to use HS2 to go faster.

 

As most of the WCML intercity trains will be taken off the WCML, along the sections where HS2 covers the route, there generally won't be an option.

The current thinking is that the remaining IC services that don't use HS2, will make a few more stops along the way (e.g. MK, Rugby, Stafford, Stoke etc).

 

If HS2 ticket pricing is higher, or sufficiently higher to incentivise people to use the slower services, there's a risk that those slower trains are likely to become very overcrowded.

If there is a price premium, what will it be a premium over, when it's the same services, but running on the HS network instead?

 

HS2 isn't being designed as an additional, or alternative "premium service".

The ICWC services are being diverted onto it, albeit with a new HS train fleet.

Hence the ICWC franchise covers both the classic lines and the new HS2 lines.

 

 

.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Ron Ron Ron

[Zomboid]

Ticket pricing will come out in the wash, but there is a premium to use HS1 services, as there is with high speed lines the world over. On HS1 it's not enough to force most people onto the classic lines as far as I know.

 

Of course, HS1 domestic services don't compete with air travel, whilst HS2 will, so that will be a factor in determining whatever the tickets will cost.

[lmsforever]

Great  if you live in London or Birmingham  fast trains in up  to date  stock  but everybody else will have to join stoppers and change at Crewe   you will pay a high fare for a slow service.Just how long will it take to arrive at Crewe, three and a half hours to Glasgow becomes five  not a good thing  thank goodness for Chiltern to Birmingham who will probably still retain their share of passengers and provide connectivity to the region.As to fares on high speed they will have to be of a premium nature to recoup the enormous cost of construction.Does anyone know if the new stock will tilt north of preston if it does not it will be interesting .I am still to be convinced on high speed but if the new services offer a real alternative to now and connections are available then possibly I will consider it to be a good idea.

[DavidB-AU]

10 hours ago, Zomboid said:

It may well be at a premium, high speed rail usually does command a premium. It'll still be possible to use the WCML I would imagine, or pay a bit more to use HS2 to go faster.

 

Counter argument. My last rail vs air decision was Strasbourg to London. The only direct flight at the time was in the evening to Stansted and would have cost around €300. The alternative flights would have required changing in Brussels or Amsterdam and cost a little more. TGV and Eurostar cost me €152... for first class.

 

Cheers

David

[caradoc]

11 hours ago, lmsforever said:

Great  if you live in London or Birmingham  fast trains in up  to date  stock  but everybody else will have to join stoppers and change at Crewe   you will pay a high fare for a slow service.Just how long will it take to arrive at Crewe, three and a half hours to Glasgow becomes five  not a good thing  thank goodness for Chiltern to Birmingham who will probably still retain their share of passengers and provide connectivity to the region.As to fares on high speed they will have to be of a premium nature to recoup the enormous cost of construction.Does anyone know if the new stock will tilt north of preston if it does not it will be interesting .I am still to be convinced on high speed but if the new services offer a real alternative to now and connections are available then possibly I will consider it to be a good idea.

 

Three and a half hours to Glasgow from where now please ? Nearly all the Euston/Glasgow via Trent Valley services are non stop between Warrington and Euston, the trains via the West Midlands stop at the likes of Milton Keynes but take considerably longer than 3 1/2 hours ! 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

12 hours ago, lmsforever said:

Great  if you live in London or Birmingham  fast trains in up  to date  stock  but everybody else will have to join stoppers and change at Crewe   you will pay a high fare for a slow service.Just how long will it take to arrive at Crewe, three and a half hours to Glasgow becomes five  not a good thing  thank goodness for Chiltern to Birmingham who will probably still retain their share of passengers and provide connectivity to the region.As to fares on high speed they will have to be of a premium nature to recoup the enormous cost of construction.Does anyone know if the new stock will tilt north of preston if it does not it will be interesting .I am still to be convinced on high speed but if the new services offer a real alternative to now and connections are available then possibly I will consider it to be a good idea.

You don't seem to understand.

Phase 3 of HS2 will go to Glasgow & since we are discussing future travel, we should include it. Tilting is therefore irrelevant. The WCML is double track for most of its northern half so the speed difference between a 125mph express & a 60mph freight is the problem...& also why the idea of running Pendolinos at 140mph never went very far.

Also as the previous post correctly states, choices for travellers from Milton Keynes or Rugby to Glasgow are currently either the slow route through Birmingham or taking a Holyhead/Manchester/LMWR service as far as Crewe. Stopping patterns on London-Glasgow services were changed some time ago to relieve congestion & accelerate the service in order to compete with other transport (ECML & air) so more stops which slow down the services are unlikely to be re-added.

[lmsforever]

 From MK  that is my gateway to the wcml  and I got my timing wrong  its four hours  but if I had to go MK to Crewe  on a stopper  add at least an hour not good .Going back to pre electric timings ,there is a very good northbound market from MK which will be lost  .

[lmsforever]

Phase 3  will be many years in the future so HS2 will be using the northern wcml  for a long time as of now the only line officially on its way to approval is London Brum and who knows what the situation in the country will be in financialy.MK  has an excellent northbound service level  I get on the 6.20 and am in Glasgow at 10.30  very satisfied with that thank you .

[Pete the Elaner]

11 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

Phase 3  will be many years in the future so HS2 will be using the northern wcml  for a long time as of now the only line officially on its way to approval is London Brum and who knows what the situation in the country will be in financialy.MK  has an excellent northbound service level  I get on the 6.20 and am in Glasgow at 10.30  very satisfied with that thank you .

That's the only direct northbound service all day which uses the TV lines. The rest go via Birmingham & as a result are over 5 hours, often making it quicker to use 2 trains. It is therefore a bad example.

If you use the WCML, surely you must see how much it needs help?

 

There are viewpoints other than travelling north from the home counties:

HS2 is designed to serve major hubs on the WCML of Birmingham, Crewe, Manchester & London. These are all served by lots of local services from which passengers need to change anyway. HS2 frees capacity from here onwards.

[Zomboid]

11 hours ago, lmsforever said:

 From MK  that is my gateway to the wcml  and I got my timing wrong  its four hours  but if I had to go MK to Crewe  on a stopper  add at least an hour not good .Going back to pre electric timings ,there is a very good northbound market from MK which will be lost  .

Why would MK to Crewe be on a stopper? I don't know what the future timetable would be, but I'd expect there to still be a reasonable number of fast trains on the WCML, just not as fast as they are today - eg London to Manchester calling at MK, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe, Wilmslow & Stockport, or something similar to that. That would be considerably faster than today's Trent Valley stoppers.

 

You'd also be able to get to Birmingham international pretty quickly and pick up HS2 there.