Rails Announce OO 18000 Gas Turbine Locomotive

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, maico said:

 

If you can't see the buffer housing red is a different colour to the lining in this photo, I would suggest using a colour calibrated display.

 

 

Using colour sampling in Corel Photopaint, and depending on which particular pixels you select, there is remarkably little difference in the RGB code.

 

John Isherwood.

[dibber25]

1 hour ago, maico said:

 

If you can't see the buffer housing red is a different colour to the lining in this photo, I would suggest using a colour calibrated display.

 

Why would I do that? (CJL)

[maico]

24 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

Why would I do that? (CJL)

 

Most computer displays have a limited colour gamut

[Pteremy]

Computer calibration issues aside I don't think there is any doubt (e.g. looking at the 'Huntriss photo' earlier in the thread) that the buffer beams are red - as per the 1956 repainting specification - and that the lining is some shade of orange. I am happy to defer to others on what precisely that was, but logically it would be something that Swindon had in stock for other (similar) uses.

[Miss Prism]

suggested colour swatch for GWR chrome orange

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

suggested colour swatch for GWR chrome orange

 

From my own colour sampling research, I would strongly support the view that the lining colour was chrome orange lining; (rgb 255,128,64).

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

From my own colour sampling research, I would strongly support the view that the lining colour was chrome orange lining; (rgb 255,128,64).

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Random question, but i’d assume the Orange is standard GWR /BR lining orange, why would they pick a non-standard, non-stock colour ?

 

 

[cctransuk]

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Random question, but i’d assume the Orange is standard GWR /BR lining orange, why would they pick a non-standard, non-stock colour ?

 

Se Miss Prism's link above : http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieslococolour.html

 

John Isherwood.

[dibber25]

17 hours ago, maico said:

 

Most computer displays have a limited colour gamut

I never use computer displays for any serious colour research. I've worked with colour in publishing for the past 40 years. Photographs can be misleading enough. I wonder how many processes those contentious pictures of 18000 went through, even before they were scanned onto a computer? Were they slides? Were they original slides or copies? How many correction processes have been applied. Like I said earlier, I have an old CCQ copy slide of that photo of 18000. I've had it for years so it has probably changed colour with age. It may have been a bad copy to start with but there's never been any hint of green - it looks black with red lining. I know it wasn't, but that's the way it looks. These days, I could give it to anyone who is proficient with Photoshop and they could make it any colour they chose. (CJL)

[Pteremy]

By chance I have come across another good colour photo of 18000 out of service at Swindon dated 9/3/61 on page 46 of British Railways Western Region in Colour. ((John posted a grainier B/W version earlier in the thread). Alerted to existence of a lower body stripe you can just about make it out - but it is hardly discernible, unlike the roof and side body stripes.

 

The reason for posting though is that the 'additional pipework' is clearer and looks very much like it is connected to the boiler drain cock. 

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, dibber25 said:

I never use computer displays for any serious colour research. I've worked with colour in publishing for the past 40 years. Photographs can be misleading enough. I wonder how many processes those contentious pictures of 18000 went through, even before they were scanned onto a computer? Were they slides? Were they original slides or copies? How many correction processes have been applied. Like I said earlier, I have an old CCQ copy slide of that photo of 18000. I've had it for years so it has probably changed colour with age. It may have been a bad copy to start with but there's never been any hint of green - it looks black with red lining. I know it wasn't, but that's the way it looks. These days, I could give it to anyone who is proficient with Photoshop and they could make it any colour they chose. (CJL)

 

I would totally agree that one cannot trust scanned images of old photos to accurately reproduce the original colours.

 

What you can do, though, is use colour sampling to compare similar colours within the same image; it will give an indication as to whether they were the same colour or not.

 

John Isherwood.

[Pteremy]

On 04/11/2020 at 10:23, Gaz101 said:

There's definitely a very thin red/orange band above the bevel, and the bevel appears black.

 

Here's a close crop of the colour photo I mentioned (hope that's allowed; happy to remove it if not).

 

Is the roof band clear in this photo? I ask because I have found another colour image in which it looks as if it might be the same style as the side band - that is, one thick stripe in the middle of two very thin ones?

 

[maico]

The image in question may be a 35mm Kodachrome. A known quality that has archive permanence.

 

For example, this image taken by Bill Wright of an English Electric 1000HP Type 1 on Polmadie Shed taken in July 1965 and a  kodachrome taken in Eynsford Kent in 1943. ( Kodachrome 35mm and 8mm cine was introduced in 1936, 16mm cine 1937, and in 5x4" in 1938 )

 

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by maico

[maico]

Early kodachrome had a slight but distinctive shift from red to orange red as seen in this shot taken on VE day 1945

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by maico

[Pteremy]

A couple of enlargements from an undated late period photo (i.e. late crest + additional piping) of 18000 apparently at Swindon station.

 

Looking at the right side of the cab/photo it would appear that the thick chrome orange band is immediately next to the roof grey/silver, without a gap between them, and has a thinner line below it. So similar in style to the side lining but not identical.

 

This near front on view also clearly shows the additional piping attached to the boiler drain cock. I wonder if this late addition to 18000 might reflect some generic change in practice in the late 1950's about how water was to be drained?

[truffy]

On 06/11/2020 at 14:09, cctransuk said:

What you can do, though, is use colour sampling to compare similar colours within the same image; it will give an indication as to whether they were the same colour or not.

 

On 06/11/2020 at 21:24, maico said:

Early kodachrome had a slight but distinctive shift from red to orange red

While I am familiar with the concept of colour sampling and matching, I have next to no clue about ageing of photographic images.

 

Specifically, do all tones age/fade in the same manner?

 

Sure, you might be able to judge how the blues have changed by comparing the colour of the sky. Or grass for green. But what does that tell you of the red hues?

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, truffy said:

 

 

Specifically, do all tones age/fade in the same manner?

 

Sure, you might be able to judge how the blues have changed by comparing the colour of the sky. Or grass for green. But what does that tell you of the red hues?

Unfortunately not, different dyes used in the process fade at varying rates (or even change colour shift) , Kodachrome was always considered the most stable, but a decently archive processed Ektachrome could give it a run for your money.

I actually think the old chemical colour processes were easier to keep track of regarding accuracy, nowadays with digital there are infinite variables to consider and even if your output is perfect there is no guarantee the end user viewing your images is using anything like a calibrated display/print out to view on.

[dibber25]

All this stuff about colour and photographs should surely be somewhere else. This is supposed to be about Rails's 18000. (CJL)

[truffy]

59 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

All this stuff about colour and photographs should surely be somewhere else. This is supposed to be about Rails's 18000. (CJL)

If you cared to read and follow you’d notice that it’s related to the 18000’s decoration (both presence and colour).  (NPM)

[dibber25]

1 hour ago, truffy said:

If you cared to read and follow you’d notice that it’s related to the 18000’s decoration (both presence and colour).  (NPM)

If you read and followed you'd see that all this technical guff about colour and computer tech arose from a comment I made about the transparency that shows the red or is it orange, line in the first place. (CJL)

[truffy]

3 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

red or is it orange

Exactly.  

[cctransuk]

10 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

If you read and followed you'd see that all this technical guff about colour and computer tech arose from a comment I made about the transparency that shows the red or is it orange, line in the first place. (CJL)

 

Well then - someone has to say it - you started it !!

 

In the context of the debate about the finer points of 18000s livery; it surely is relevant?

 

To the manufacturer who needs to know the correct colours, it shouldn't be just "technical guff".

 

John Isherwood.

 

 

[boxbrownie]

59 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Well then - someone has to say it - you started it !!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by boxbrownie

[ScRSG]

Hmmm....

 

[dibber25]

4 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Well then - someone has to say it - you started it !!

 

In the context of the debate about the finer points of 18000s livery; it surely is relevant?

 

To the manufacturer who needs to know the correct colours, it shouldn't be just "technical guff".

 

John Isherwood.

 

 

Sorry. I'll shut up and go away. (CJL)