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Rails Announce OO 18000 Gas Turbine Locomotive

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4 hours ago, Covkid said:

I am guessing that when built it had just two pipes on the buffer beam. Vacuum and steam.  Since then it probably received a res pipe and an air train pipe for it''s journey to and around Wien. However, even though i doubt they are, the two white pipes in one of the images look a little like the old Austrian / Swiss double vac pipes used on the narrow gauge alpine railways.

 

I am sure every knows anyway but 18000's framing was significantly altered during its time in Austria. You can see that from the sole bar down, one end is different to the other. I imagine the Rails / Heljan team know this and will work from the unmodified end of the loco.

Yes, they've been well aware of that and the limited usefulness of the loco in the condition as it survives at Didcot. I've provided Ben with copies of all the research material I had for my Trains Illustrated article way back in the 1980s. (CJL)

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On 12/11/2019 at 21:59, adb968008 said:

I think this this is going to do well.

I certainly hope so. There are quite a few ecstatic people, including me, posting. It all depends on whether there are enough of us.

 

If I get carried away, I am delighted to see Heljan (in co-operation with Rails) returning to the oddballs. Is it fantasy to imagine that Heljan decided that there was more money to be made in 0 gauge and consequently stopped tooling 00 oddballs? Could it be that Dapol entering 0 gauge and producing models more cheaply than Heljan has inclined the latter, when prodded by Rails (many thanks, Rails) to look again at 00 oddballs?

 

Assuming that the limited production announced by Rails is genuine and not just a marketing ploy, the sums must work. After all, despite much scepticism, the GT3 model is reported to have reached the number of pre-orders necessary to go ahead.

 

No doubt I’ll get blasted for wish-listing but I would like to mention that the only oddball diesel electric remaining is 10800. Perhaps it wasn’t done because it would require a new chassis to be strictly accurate (the Class 16 which was developed from it had different wheel spacing – ruling out using the Class 16 chassis). That and its hum-drum appearance.

 

If Rails tells us to get up off our knees, stop begging and flex our credit cards to follow with 18100, I hope it’s tooled to enable a Class 80 to be modelled too.

 

I shall just have to be patient.

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.

 

Strictly speaking there is another diesel-electric (or rather electro-diesel) -  the class 74.

 

And, don't just stick with diesel-electric, there are the two types of Class 70 pure electric locos.

 

.

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I’d happily go for those. I think it likely that I’ll have to turn to Silver Fox for the 74, given the proposed models unhappy history.

 

Railway modelling is as subject to fashion as anything else. Production of an overhead electric leads to an appetite for more. Gas turbines and industrials likewise (to name just two).

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5 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

I am sure every knows anyway but 18000's framing was significantly altered during its time in Austria. You can see that from the sole bar down, one end is different to the other. I imagine the Rails / Heljan team know this and will work from the unmodified end of the loco.

Would be interesting to know what's 'hidden' by those bulges - could it be restored to original appearance ?

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1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

Next.... a Leader.....

That was another modelling project which bit the dust. It was crowdfunded and backed by a shop but the experts who were doing the research disappeared into thin air, as far as I could ascertain.

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7 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

That was another modelling project which bit the dust. It was crowdfunded and backed by a shop but the experts who were doing the research disappeared into thin air, as far as I could ascertain.

I remember that one a few years back. I think even the shop itself closed down once and the owner opened another one. I found the project somewhat lacking at the time so did not invest.

It was said that this would be done with Dapol (this during the DJ era - not the current team). 

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:offtopic: A very interesting beast, was the Leader. It’s all very well having the benefit of hindsight but there were aspects of the design, such as placing the boiler off-centre, which should have been foreseen as a bad idea. Many years ago, I had a sleepless night when the whole idea got hold of me. What, I wondered, should have been done? As dawn approached, I had concluded that a Standard 4 Tank on a chassis akin to that under a double Fairlie would have been better and by the time I got up to seek breakfast I had concluded that just building more Standard 4s would have been the sensible way forward. The joy with which the Ivatt 4s were greeted on the Southern hints to me that Bulleid, fascinating character though he was, didn’t focus enough on what the Southern needed. Still, a model would be welcome as a demonstration of what didn’t work out :offtopic: rather like the gas turbines.

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4 hours ago, No Decorum said:

If I get carried away, I am delighted to see Heljan (in co-operation with Rails) returning to the oddballs. Is it fantasy to imagine that Heljan decided that there was more money to be made in 0 gauge and consequently stopped tooling 00 oddballs? Could it be that Dapol entering 0 gauge and producing models more cheaply than Heljan has inclined the latter, when prodded by Rails (many thanks, Rails) to look again at 00 oddballs?

 

I think you have things reversed.  This is a Rails project, and Heljan is the chosen producer (just like Dapol has been for the Terrier and D).

 

4 hours ago, No Decorum said:

Assuming that the limited production announced by Rails is genuine and not just a marketing ploy, the sums must work. After all, despite much scepticism, the GT3 model is reported to have reached the number of pre-orders necessary to go ahead.

 

They didn't exactly say limited production, the first post says low production run.  I take that simply to mean given the likely limited interest in this item they won't be producing a lot of extra models for inventory purposes given the risk of them sitting on shelves for years.

 

But the point is that by reducing/eliminating the standard cost of doing a normal retail distribution these direct commissions / selling direct producers can produce models that otherwise wouldn't work for a standard Dapol/Hornby/Bachmann release.

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2 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

I think you have things reversed.  This is a Rails project, and Heljan is the chosen producer (just like Dapol has been for the Terrier and D).

 

 

They didn't exactly say limited production, the first post says low production run.  I take that simply to mean given the likely limited interest in this item they won't be producing a lot of extra models for inventory purposes given the risk of them sitting on shelves for years.

 

But the point is that by reducing/eliminating the standard cost of doing a normal retail distribution these direct commissions / selling direct producers can produce models that otherwise wouldn't work for a standard Dapol/Hornby/Bachmann release.

These new release ideas are increasingly 'partnerships' rather than someone having an idea and commissioning someone else to produce it. When Ben Jones was Editor of Model Rail, I suggested on more than one occasion that we should do 18000 as a follow-up to the Sentinel. In the end we went with the USA 0-6-0T as it was felt to have more potential. But, once suggested, these ideas are seldom forgotten and when wish-lists fall into place and other factors come into play........such as, Ben's working for Heljan these days and he comes from Sheffield, as does Rails. It's just great that it's being done at last. (CJL)

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On 13/11/2019 at 11:31, St Enodoc said:

And also to Penzance, through Porthmellyn Road...

 

I think when I suspend reality it will be based at Laira for extensive testing over the Cornish switchback and South Devon banks. No doubt 1/76 scale Peter Gray will be waiting with his camera...

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1 hour ago, TrevorP1 said:

 

I think when I suspend reality it will be based at Laira for extensive testing over the Cornish switchback and South Devon banks. No doubt 1/76 scale Peter Gray will be waiting with his camera...

 

Though, of course, it will have done some running in turns from Old Oak down the West London Extension to Clapham Junction before it get transferred...

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Good evening everyone. 
I’ve held off for a couple of days before responding to the various questions asked about 18000 here since it was unveiled on Tuesday. 
Firstly, thanks to everyone for the positive feedback. It reinforces my/our view that the demand is there for this machine. It has nothing to do with Heljan ‘returning to oddballs’ or doing less in O gauge due to competitors etc and, as my former boss says, everything to do with the right combination of factors at the right time. Rails is to be congratulated for putting its money where its mouth is and investing a lot of resources upfront into such a project. 


So, to clarify, it will be an A1A-A1A, and the centre trailing wheels are smaller diameter as per the original. Everything has been designed from the original Brown Boveri works drawings of 1949 (which are in the NRM archive) rather than a scan of the loco as it is, which would be of limited use for many reasons.  However, the GWS were kind enough (as they always are) to let us have a look over 18000 when we visited Didcot to measure up the AEC Railcar. 
We are not planning to offer sound fitted or factory weathered models, but there will be plenty of space inside for a speaker if required. 

I’d also like to thank Chris (dibber25) for his help, and for pointing us in the right direction with regard to the finer details. 

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Enjoy! 

I've not found any pics of her with a headboard on, but the steam era reporting numbers were not uncommon. I daresay Stationmaster can tell us what 455 was. She appears to be on the up main and I'm thinking maybe Twyford/Maidenhead area. Photographer not known. (CJL)

18000_up_exp_455_1.jpeg

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20 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

.

 

......I daresay Stationmaster can tell us what 455 was.......

 

.

.

 

It was the later train that overtook Agatha Christie's "4:50 from Paddington"  ;)

 

.

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1 hour ago, 61661 said:


So, to clarify, it will be an A1A-A1A, and the centre trailing wheels are smaller diameter as per the original. Everything has been designed from the original Brown Boveri works drawings of 1949 (which are in the NRM archive) rather than a scan of the loco as it is, which would be of limited use for many reasons.  However, the GWS were kind enough (as they always are) to let us have a look over 18000 when we visited Didcot to measure up the AEC Railcar. 

 

Hi Ben

 

Thank you for the tip-off about the works drawings, I'm going to chase that up.

 

I'm interested in the comment about the laser scanning, especially the comment about it being of limited use. What are the reasons behind that? I scanned the engine a while ago and comparing it to available drawings there didn't seem to be that many discrepancies with the limited available dimensions i had, (ignoring the more recent modifications of course). The scanning did highlight quite obviously that the engine was hand built though, it will be interesting to compare the 'as built' against the original works drawings for sure, I bet there will actually be quite a few discrepancies!

 

J.

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13 minutes ago, -missy- said:

 

Hi Ben

 

Thank you for the tip-off about the works drawings, I'm going to chase that up.

 

I'm interested in the comment about the laser scanning, especially the comment about it being of limited use. What are the reasons behind that? I scanned the engine a while ago and comparing it to available drawings there didn't seem to be that many discrepancies with the limited available dimensions i had, (ignoring the more recent modifications of course). The scanning did highlight quite obviously that the engine was hand built though, it will be interesting to compare the 'as built' against the original works drawings for sure, I bet there will actually be quite a few discrepancies!

 

J.

Laser scanning has some advantages for model production but can create additional work elsewhere, so it’s not the panacea it is sometimes depicted as. 

Being Swiss, the drawings are VERY precise and very detailed but no doubt there are some variations! 
With regard to 18000 specifically, there are many differences between its BR condition up to 1960 and how it looks now. In no particular order, these include:

The modified frames with bulge at one end

Grille/window arrangement

End details

Lamps 

Roof is largely plated over

Modified bogies for the UIC wheel/rail interface testing

And, as there’s no internal equipment the loco is noticeably higher on its springs than when it was at its full working weight. 
 

 

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47 minutes ago, -missy- said:

 

Hi Ben

 

Thank you for the tip-off about the works drawings, I'm going to chase that up.

 

I'm interested in the comment about the laser scanning, especially the comment about it being of limited use. What are the reasons behind that? I scanned the engine a while ago and comparing it to available drawings there didn't seem to be that many discrepancies with the limited available dimensions i had, (ignoring the more recent modifications of course). The scanning did highlight quite obviously that the engine was hand built though, it will be interesting to compare the 'as built' against the original works drawings for sure, I bet there will actually be quite a few discrepancies!

 

J.

18000 came about as a result of Hawksworth seeing a prototype gas turbine at work in Switzerland. He sent a representative from Swindon Works to monitor the construction at Brown Boveri's works. This guy apparently received very little financial support from Swindon and among the documents at the NRM is a 'begging letter' which he sent to Hawksworth asking for some extra money because the £ had been devalued and he couldn't afford even the basics of accommodation and food. He reported that at one point there was a long delay because a part (a grille panel, if I remember correctly) had been made opposite-handed and would not fit - so, yes, it certainly was a hand-made job! With regard to discrepancies between 'as drawn' and 'as built' Ben kindly supplied me with CADs back earlier in the year and I was able to compare them against the photographs which I have (which include the Swindon officials and a photograph of the loco when on test in Switzerland). I also made a visit to Didcot to check on and photograph certain aspects of the shape. I hope that between us we've picked up all the points that needed attention. The revised CADs look fine, but it needs to be remembered that this was an experimental locomotive which spent much of its short career in or around Swindon Works for either repair or modification, so it's virtually impossible to cover every minor change. I'm very grateful to have been involved in the early research for this model. 18000 has always been a pet favourite of mine, though I never saw it. I built my first model of out of Plastikard and balsa wood and used a modified Hornby-Dublo 'Deltic' chassis - which shows how long ago it was! (CJL)

 

Edited by dibber25
correcting spell checker!
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Yes, I did get carried away. Nevertheless, the inputs from Ben and Chris add considerably to my interest in the project. There is so much on the way at the moment that finances are stretched but it’s a long time since I pre-ordered something as soon as it was announced. Sound? Oh yes – the money will be found somehow. After all, I already have 24s, 25s, 47s, 55s and 66s. I haven’t 18000. Many thanks to all concerned.

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3 hours ago, dibber25 said:

Enjoy! 

I've not found any pics of her with a headboard on, but the steam era reporting numbers were not uncommon. I daresay Stationmaster can tell us what 455 was. She appears to be on the up main and I'm thinking maybe Twyford/Maidenhead area. Photographer not known. (CJL)

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_11/18000_up_exp_455_1.jpeg.0c2a6e76ed2d5df6428f71bb62ed61c7.jpeg

According to the list by Ed Chaplin on the late David Hey's website, in Summer 1957 it was the 0820 Weston-super-Mare to Paddington.

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/0-0-a-ed-chaplin-summer-1957-b.pdf

 

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10 hours ago, 61661 said:

Laser scanning has some advantages for model production but can create additional work elsewhere, so it’s not the panacea it is sometimes depicted as. 

Being Swiss, the drawings are VERY precise and very detailed but no doubt there are some variations! 
With regard to 18000 specifically, there are many differences between its BR condition up to 1960 and how it looks now. In no particular order, these include:

The modified frames with bulge at one end

Grille/window arrangement

End details

Lamps 

Roof is largely plated over

Modified bogies for the UIC wheel/rail interface testing

And, as there’s no internal equipment the loco is noticeably higher on its springs than when it was at its full working weight. 
 

 

 

Thanks for the reply Ben. Trust me, I am VERY aware of the limitations (and advantages) of laser scanning! I have always worked to the idea of its better to get as much information as possible on a subject, hence the thanks for the NRM drawings.

 

Below is my attempt at the engine, the majority is based upon the laser scanning.

 

18000-26.JPG

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I've always thought laser scanning is for use as guides on dimensions while assembling 3D CAD from scratch, rather than for actually making the 3D CAD from.

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