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Rails Announce OO 18000 Gas Turbine Locomotive


Oliver Rails
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2 hours ago, 61661 said:

Dear All,

Thanks for the kind comments about the 18000 deco sample. Just to reassure everyone, we also feel that the waistband orange is too bright and we have asked the factory to modify it for the production locos. 

With regard to the main body green, it is matched to Railmatch 303 BR diesel loco green. We certainly wouldn't match it to the colour it is painted now. From memory, it was painted green during its stay at Barrow Hill - primarily to try and protect the disintegrating bodywork - and the paint was sourced from a local DIY store! 

 

Kindest Regards

 

Ben

 

I think the body green looks pretty good - I certainly wouldn't criticise it and it's good to hear that 'the stripe' is going to be 'toned down'.  I've long wondered about the origin of the peculiar shade of green which the loco currently carries so the source hardly comes as a surprise.

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3 hours ago, 61661 said:

Dear All,

Thanks for the kind comments about the 18000 deco sample. Just to reassure everyone, we also feel that the waistband orange is too bright and we have asked the factory to modify it for the production locos. 

With regard to the main body green, it is matched to Railmatch 303 BR diesel loco green. We certainly wouldn't match it to the colour it is painted now. From memory, it was painted green during its stay at Barrow Hill - primarily to try and protect the disintegrating bodywork - and the paint was sourced from a local DIY store! 

 

Kindest Regards

 

Ben

 

 

Ben,

 

Can we be assured that the roof-edge reddish-orange line will be applied to the green livery versions?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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12 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think the body green looks pretty good - I certainly wouldn't criticise it and it's good to hear that 'the stripe' is going to be 'toned down'.  I've long wondered about the origin of the peculiar shade of green which the loco currently carries so the source hardly comes as a surprise.

Yes, I've heard that from at least one source close to Barrow Hill. It was, I think, a 'holding exercise' in desperation to try and keep the loco looking presentable for a while longer but it was done quite a few years ago and the loco has been out in all weathers since its arrival at Didcot. The GWS doesn't own it, so I imagine it won't be high on their list of priorities and it will need large amounts of sheet metalwork before there's anything much to paint. (CJL)

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On 29/10/2020 at 10:18, cctransuk said:

 

Ben,

 

Can we be assured that the roof-edge reddish-orange line will be applied to the green livery versions?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Hi John,

We've had long discussions about this and as the evidence is not conclusive, we have agreed with Rails that we will not apply the orange band around the roof line. We think that if it was applied, it was only for a short period as we have many more photos of it in green where no band is visible, both with the early emblem and the late crest. To be on the safe side, and to ensure each model is accurate for the widest possible period, we will keep the roof decoration as it is.

 

Hope this helps

 

Kindest Regards

 

Ben

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41 minutes ago, 61661 said:

Hi John,

We've had long discussions about this and as the evidence is not conclusive, we have agreed with Rails that we will not apply the orange band around the roof line. We think that if it was applied, it was only for a short period as we have many more photos of it in green where no band is visible, both with the early emblem and the late crest. To be on the safe side, and to ensure each model is accurate for the widest possible period, we will keep the roof decoration as it is.

 

Hope this helps

 

Kindest Regards

 

Ben

 

Ben,

 

I am very disappointed to hear that Heljan / Rails do not intend to apply the reddish-orange roof edge lining to the green version of the above model. I am totally convinced that it was a feature of that livery from the time that it was repainted from black until its time in storage, before it was send to Switzerland. Every photo that I have collected - colour or greyscale - has a clear image or at least a suggestion of this line.

 

Have you an image of 18000 in clean condition where it is clearly apparent that the line is not present? Remember - unless the loco was ex-works or had recently been cleaned, the line would be at least partly obsured by the normal roof dirt, if not virtually obliterated. Contrary to the prototype, most modellers will operate / display their models in a relatively clean condition, and the absence of this line will be very evident.

 

No doubt, if the model is produced in this incomplete condition, those of us who have the skills / courage to do so will add the line, but I am sure that there will be many disappointed owners who cannot / will not make this correction to an expensive model.

 

Please think again about this flawed decision.

 

John Isherwood.

 

Photos NOT my copyright - will remove if requested.

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The excellent colour photo showing an orange roof band with the early crest looks pretty conclusive to me. Kevin Robertson's book has an 'official Swindon' photo (p121) dated to 'late 1957', also with the early crest. Being a black and white photo the roof band is a subtle colour variation but does appear to be there.

 

If there is good photographic evidence that the roof band was not present when 18000 re-entered service in Feb 1957 then there might be a case for the early crest version to be issued without the roof band, but, as above, there doesn't appear to be any doubt that the late crest version should have the band.

 

Would the error stop me buying the final version? No. But as a livery issue it would seem to be a relatively straightforward thing to correct?

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58 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Point well made John........although I will still buy one with or without......hieratic, that’s me ;)

I don't have to be a heretic, since I've ordered the black one. :good:

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It's a very long time since I saw this loco in traffic and I'd be the first to admit that at that age I was more interested in copping the number than I was in studying the subtleties of livery detail.  So like everyone else I basically have to look at photos and like John ('cctransuk') I have looked at numerous sources.  My conclusion from checking photos is that the narrow orange band at the junction of the body and roof colours first appeared while the loco was painted in green with the early emblem but I would not like to put an exact date on that nor would I necessarily date it when the loco went frm black to green - simply because I can't find any evidence at all regarding the date when the line first appeared.

 

On the other hand - as the photos linked above also show - I have not been able to find a single photo of the loco with the late emblem, either in traffic or after withdrawal by BR, where it was not showing at least a trace through dirt etc of that narrow orange band,  If somebody can produce such a photo I would be happy to revise my opinion (you can send it by PM if it's copyright protected) but thus far - as evidenced by the photos above it had that narrow orange band.  One of those photos, with the loco standing at the Down Main Line platform at Reading in a very shiny state was very obviously (from detail visible in the background) taken in the very early days of use of the second emblem while others, clearly on Swindon dump sidings, also show it.  Between them I can but conclude that the narrow orange band was there for the vast majority, and probably all, of the time the loco was carrying the second BR emblem.

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From a wide variety of images in the above portfolio.....early to late in its working life in BR green.....it would be difficult to conclude otherwise than that roof strip existed throughout that period. Is there any record extant from Swindon archives of a visit for a repaint ? I suggest probably this did not occur,so why would that strip not be present until withdrawal from traffic ,given the GW/WR’s parsimony with paint ? 
 

   I have no axe to grind as I’ve ordered the black version but is it really too late to amend this decision ?

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5 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

From a wide variety of images in the above portfolio.....early to late in its working life in BR green.....it would be difficult to conclude otherwise than that roof strip existed throughout that period. Is there any record extant from Swindon archives of a visit for a repaint ? I suggest probably this did not occur,so why would that strip not be present until withdrawal from traffic ,given the GW/WR’s parsimony with paint ? 
 

   I have no axe to grind as I’ve ordered the black version but is it really too late to amend this decision ?

I can't get at the book art the moment (it's in my son's WFH 'office' and he's in the midst off 'phone calls) but Kevin Robertson's book about the Western gas turbines gives reasonable - but perhaps not complete? - information about the occasions/dates when the loco finished up in works for a variety of reasons.  I would think it inevitable that the loco was repainted during one of those visits.

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8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Does this mean 18000 was the first locomotive to carry the now standard Orange cantrail stripe ?    
 

Have we just uncovered an interesting piece of history ?

Nah...just a bit of Italian flare......:D

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10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Does this mean 18000 was the first locomotive to carry the now standard Orange cantrail stripe ?    
 

Have we just uncovered an interesting piece of history ?

It looks as if it was but obviously not for the same reason as the cantrail stripe years later becoming de rigeur.   But I wonder if it gave somebody the idea and years later he was in a position to bring it into official use?

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Hmm.  I would suggest that the mystery can be solved by considering what Swindon would have done.  Swindon did not spend money when it did not need to, indeed as I pointed out when a similar wild goose chase was started over the first batch of 72xx appearing with Great Western on the tanks rather that the contemporary roundel; they changed the rear end and painted it but did not need to repaint the essentially pristine side tanks with Great Western on them.  Here we have the emblem being changed and I suggest the whole side was repainted up to a vertical seam or door as appropriate but not the nose.  Therefore the photographs above show that the orange cantrail lining remains on the nose of the locomotive after the second emblem was added but not on the sides which would have been over painted.  The aim being to keep repainting costs down (noses not repainted) but to avoid an obvious change of shade around the new emblem.  I refer to those who renumber model diesels and then weather the model to hide this issue.

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17 minutes ago, MG 7305 said:

Therefore the photographs above show that the orange cantrail lining remains on the nose of the locomotive after the second emblem was added but not on the sides which would have been over painted.

 

I'm afraid that I cannot agree - there is evidence of the presence of the upper side line in photos after the later crest was applied.

 

I doubt that even Swindon would have sent out a loco with half the top lining overpainted - by that reasoning, they would not have renewed the lower side lining either.

 

In fact - a patch of paint over the old crest; a transfer for the new crest; and leave the rest of the paint and lining untouched. There's plenty of photos of locos where that's exactly what happened.

 

John Isherwood.

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Purely as an illustration of how difficult these livery decisions can be, I offer the following. I had some discussions with Ben about this loco right from the word go. I went to Didcot and photographed it to assist with the original CADs particularly with regard to the end shape. My view was that it was never painted green. I have a copy of that CCQ slide that appears further up this thread - the one looking down on the loco and showing the line around the roof. The slide that I have shows a black loco with red lining! I'm not suggesting that the proposed green livery is wrong, merely that you cannot rely on photographs for livery information - particularly not OLD photographs and copies umpteen times removed from the original. Given the much-improved evidence now, I'm willing to concede that 18000 did receive BR green. The lining - waist and roof - still looks to my eyes to be red, not orange, but I much prefer the loco in its original black and silver anyway. (CJL)

 

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3 hours ago, dibber25 said:

The lining - waist and roof - still looks to my eyes to be red, not orange,

 

My view is that it was the same carmine red that was used on coaching stock in the carmine and cream livery period - which, as can be seen from the photo in question, was a red with a hint of orange.

 

The similarity in this close proximity image is too striking to be ignored; having taken numerous colour samples from both the coach carmine and the loco lining, the RGB composition is consistently very close.

 

John Isherwood.

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