Hornby 2020 range "reveal date" = 6th Jan

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, davidw said:

A bit left of field but an ECML Thompson Pacific would be the last of the Pacifics bar "Great Bear".

 

NER Raven A2 as well. But very unlikely.

 

Photo Wiki

 

I have a feeling that any new Pacific would be new versions of the WC/BBs and rebuilt MNs which are getting on a bit now. Unless they can find the Clan.

 

 

 

Jason

[JSpencer]

The Atlantic group on the Bluebell have announced that an SECR E class will follow after the The Brighton Atlantic is finished. Chosen because it is half the cost of an LBSCR K or I3 to build and completes the Bluebell SECR range of locos (as well as sharing some parts with SECR locos on that line).

So maybe an SECR E class from Hornby next year...... or the year after....

Edited December 23, 2019 by JSpencer
Correction

[MartinTrucks]

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

The Atlantic group on the Bluebell have announced that an SECR E class will follow after the The Brighton Atlantic is finished. Chosen because it is half the cost of a K3 or I3 to build and completes the Bluebell SECR range of locos (as well as sharing some parts with SECR locos on that line).

So maybe an SECR E class from Hornby next year...... or the year after....

You obviously mean a LBSCR K or I3 class?

Best regards,

Martin

[JSpencer]

9 minutes ago, MartinTrucks said:

You obviously mean a LBSCR K or I3 class?

Best regards,

Martin

Indeed

[gc4946]

I'm surprised that Hornby hasn't picked up modelling SECR rebuilt D1 and E1 4-4-0s as well as a 21st century revival of their Triang L1 4-4-0

[Phil Parker]

On 20/12/2019 at 14:34, mdvle said:

The existing 50 has issues that prevent me from considering it (a problem for one who would like to model Devon in the 80s), with the major one being the toy like operating louvers

 

On 20/12/2019 at 22:29, adb968008 said:

i like the sprung buffers, opening doors, posable louvres.

 

And here we have the challenge facing RTR manufacturers wondering where to send £150k...

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, JSpencer said:

The Atlantic group on the Bluebell have announced that an SECR E class will follow after the The Brighton Atlantic is finished. Chosen because it is half the cost of an LBSCR K or I3 to build and completes the Bluebell SECR range of locos (as well as sharing some parts with SECR locos on that line).

So maybe an SECR E class from Hornby next year...... or the year after....

I don't quite get why or how a 4-4-2T should cost twice as much to build as a 4-4-0 plus tender.....

 

John 

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

And here we have the challenge facing RTR manufacturers wondering where to send £150k...

 

To be clear, it's not specifically the operating louvers that I (and I assume others) object to but rather the poor implementation that means the louvers don't look like real thing.  To enable the operating feature, they have been inset into the body too far which detracts from the look of the model. 

 

But as others have indicated, many aren't as critical when judging a model, or value other features.

[Denbridge]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

I don't quite get why or how a 4-4-2T should cost twice as much to build as a 4-4-0 plus tender.....

 

John 

LBSC designs are fiendishly complicated, as they've found out with the Atlantic. Additionally,  the railway has quite a stock of SECR parts.

[The Johnster]

49 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

To be clear, it's not specifically the operating louvers that I (and I assume others) object to but rather the poor implementation that means the louvers don't look like real thing.  To enable the operating feature, they have been inset into the body too far which detracts from the look of the model. 

 

But as others have indicated, many aren't as critical when judging a model, or value other features.

It's an old problem with 'operating features' on RTR 4mm scale models; in order to make them robust enough to be operable you have to either make them overscale or much more expensive, and either way you'll upset somebody.  Look at the opening doors on the Triang utility van or Airfix's meat van kit, especially the hinges!

 

I'm campaigning by occasional suggestion for operating/posable sliding shutters and roof ventilators on GW locos, but not at the cost of them being overscale. 

[tomparryharry]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I don't quite get why or how a 4-4-2T should cost twice as much to build as a 4-4-0 plus tender.....

 

John 

It happens when you build a one-off locomotive in full size. The Atlantic team have amassed a great deal of knowledge, spares, and, more importantly how to go about building said locomotive. Once you've crossed the great divide, it becomes far easier. The Tornado team have trodden the same path; little wonder the team there are pressing on with a P2 locomotive. 

[Steamport Southport]

47 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

It's an old problem with 'operating features' on RTR 4mm scale models; in order to make them robust enough to be operable you have to either make them overscale or much more expensive, and either way you'll upset somebody.  Look at the opening doors on the Triang utility van or Airfix's meat van kit, especially the hinges!

 

I'm campaigning by occasional suggestion for operating/posable sliding shutters and roof ventilators on GW locos, but not at the cost of them being overscale. 

 

Sliding shutters have been standard on new models for about fifteen years!

 

 

 

Jason

[gpplumy]

Industrial is the way to go...

[wombatofludham]

Have there been any inadvertent breaches of the embargo yet?  They seem to have become an annual tradition about this time, rather like an attack of the Lionel Barts after Christmas stuffing and sprouts.

[Hroth]

16 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

Have there been any inadvertent breaches of the embargo yet? 

 

There's not even been a leak (as far as I'm aware) of the catalogue cover, unless its going to be typescript "100 Glorious Years, Hornby 1920-2020"

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

It happens when you build a one-off locomotive in full size. The Atlantic team have amassed a great deal of knowledge, spares, and, more importantly how to go about building said locomotive. Once you've crossed the great divide, it becomes far easier. The Tornado team have trodden the same path; little wonder the team there are pressing on with a P2 locomotive. 

I was comparing the potential cost of the proposed E Class with what might be that of the I3 cited in the earlier post as having been ruled out, i.e. a 4-4-2T, not the H2 Atlantic currently in progress.

 

Even if one accepts that the two cylinder, 4-4-x portion of the I3 can be so much more advanced/technically difficult as to cost significantly more than a two cylinder SECR E class, it surely couldn't can't be anything like double.

 

How different can the comparable section, a set of frames, two cylinders with motion, a bogie assembly and four coupled wheels be? OK the frames will be longer and therefore maybe 15-20% more expensive, but the rest should be much of a muchness. Once aft of the firebox, a bunker plus radial truck assembly ought (intuitively) to come in at no more than half the cost of a complete six-wheeled tender. Unless of course the 4-4-0 loco is intended to share the tender of the C Class 0-6-0, which would preclude both locos being in traffic together.

 

No doubt there are good reasons for preferring the tender loco, primarily its ability to do a whole day's work on a line such as the Bluebell without the re-coaling that a tank loco would certainly require.   

 

All-in-all, though, I just don't find the stated 100% build-cost differential credible. 

 

John

Edited December 23, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[tomparryharry]

The Atlantic project has the benefit of already having a boiler, found in Essex some 30 years ago. It's been in storage ever since. any locomotive project going down the same road won't have the same luxury of the boiler, so new-build it is. 

 

When I craned 9629 out of the Holiday Inn in Cardiff, the first detractors very very quick to point out the shortcomings:- "Eeh, it hasn't got a boiler." Luckily for the project, there was (at the time) a potential 3 boilers in the marketplace, so the first thing was to scotch that type of negative thinking, and yes, we bought a boiler. 

 

Assuming you have a lot of parts, it's sometimes an easier ride to get a project going. Having a lot of missing parts increases the overall cost pro-rata. Full marks to the Atlantic team; they are looking at what's next. Finally, they have done the costs, and they're sorting out funding. The finance aspect sort of puts a 4mm loco into clearer perspective, don't you think?

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[Paul.Uni]

The time of the announcement is 9am on 6th January.

 

[Hroth]

Less than two weeks.

 

Well, my New Years Resolution (one of them at least) will be No Pre-Orders, even if torn beyond reason to possess a particular model. So Hornby can reveal what they like and I might look at certain offerings and say "that looks nice", I may even buy a catalogue...

[Denbridge]

15 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I was comparing the potential cost of the proposed E Class with what might be that of the I3 cited in the earlier post as having been ruled out, i.e. a 4-4-2T, not the H2 Atlantic currently in progress.

 

Even if one accepts that the two cylinder, 4-4-x portion of the I3 can be so much more advanced/technically difficult as to cost significantly more than a two cylinder SECR E class, it surely couldn't can't be anything like double.

 

How different can the comparable section, a set of frames, two cylinders with motion, a bogie assembly and four coupled wheels be? OK the frames will be longer and therefore maybe 15-20% more expensive, but the rest should be much of a muchness. Once aft of the firebox, a bunker plus radial truck assembly ought (intuitively) to come in at no more than half the cost of a complete six-wheeled tender. Unless of course the 4-4-0 loco is intended to share the tender of the C Class 0-6-0, which would preclude both locos being in traffic together.

 

No doubt there are good reasons for preferring the tender loco, primarily its ability to do a whole day's work on a line such as the Bluebell without the re-coaling that a tank loco would certainly require.   

 

All-in-all, though, I just don't find the stated 100% build-cost differential credible. 

 

John

As I said above, following the complexity of the Brighton Atlantic, the team of builders have chosen an E because it is a far simpler prototype and as well as being easier to build, that simplicity also translates into being cheaper. The tender doesnt make it more expensive because A, they already have a lot of parts such as wheels, axleboxes, brake gear etc. And B, instead of building tanks and bunker, they build a tender tank.

[adb968008]

12 hours ago, Hroth said:

Less than two weeks.

 

Well, my New Years Resolution (one of them at least) will be No Pre-Orders, even if torn beyond reason to possess a particular model. So Hornby can reveal what they like and I might look at certain offerings and say "that looks nice", I may even buy a catalogue...

 

I started limiting my pre-orders last year.

At peak I had near 60 locos on pre-order, predominantly to lock-in price.

My collection grew much slower in 2019, the loss of the excitement of “get in first get in cheap” meant I became much more selective and my spend outside model railways has grown (I've done two round the country trips by rail this year for example and many more day trips in addition to overseas vacations etc), my model railway spend has unintentionally cut by half, maybe more.

 

Its also caused me to pause and think do I really need as much as I previously bought too ? I collect, As a 3rd generation collector, my collection is big, 4 figures of locos. Is it time to clear down, in my case that could be a few hundred at least let go in 2020.

 

I could have conceivably spent £3k  next week, and probably same again in Januarys expected releases, in the past i’d just let it be and roll in, After all its used to be discounted, I can always pass off what I don't need in a few weeks/months.

This year virtually none of it was  pre-ordered, the discount is less and it was proven that there really was no rush to buy on any of it as few sold out. One manufacturer repeatedly alienated me as a customer this year too by some disparaging comments made about collectors and on occasion personal..my money Is going to someone one mocks...maybe he is right and I should walk away ?

I’m looking at whats just released, bumper harvest, and 2 models excepted which look like they might sell out. For the rest, If I've not bought it by Feb, chances are I wont buy it at all, as my interest may have moved on, something thats happened in 2019.

 

Am I alone in thinking they've bought too much, slow down and become selective. High prices, mixed quality, duplication, loads of extra stuff released in 2020, and rumours of whats to come.. is it 1992 again ?

I could be totally off base, and its a new dawn for the hobby, new people joining and accepting of the price as new entrants to a growing market, tolerant of its foibles, eager to lap up the increasing number exotic fruits of a thriving market place, certainly on the outside from the marketing it looks healthy.

 

If i’ve got the wrong end of the stick,  thinning out my collection at the peak of the market is no bad thing, if i’m like minded then might it get a bit ugly in the market for some manufacturers in 2020.

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by adb968008

[MarkSG]

17 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Have there been any inadvertent breaches of the embargo yet?  They seem to have become an annual tradition about this time, rather like an attack of the Lionel Barts after Christmas stuffing and sprouts.

 

The problem with an embargo, particularly when dealing with a subject that has a lot of knowledgeable commentators and a known reveal date - which is precisely what we have here - is that it's impossible to tell the difference between a leak and a lucky guess.  Even more so, an informed guess, based on observation of what has tended to be annnounced in previous years and background knowledge of what typically sells well.

 

I think I can confidently predict that the list, when it comes out, will include some items that have been suggested here already, as well as some that haven't been. If I was going to narrow it down further, I'd be very surprised if there isn't at least one new "top link" loco or modern multiple unit in the range, as well as at least one workhorse 0-6-0 or similar. And if there are no new industrials - re-liveries of existing models even if there's no new tooling - then I'll eat my hat.

 

As for what those will be, precisely, that is of course a lot harder to predict. But, if I was putting money on it, then sooner or later we're going to see an updated Dean Single or Caley Single, and an anniversary release seems like an obvious hook to hang that on. At the other end of the spectrum, I wonder if Hornby may have noted the positive reaction to the Hudswell Clarke mooted by DJM, before that disappeared up the swanee. It would make a good companion for the Peckett, and now that it isn't going to be made by DJM then it's another obvious choice for one of the big names. As far as contemporary stuff is concerned, others have already mentioned the Greater Anglia FLIRT - that particular prototype may not have particularly wide appeal, but given that the FLIRTs will become more widespread in future then doing the deal with Stadler now for the rights to model it would make good business sense.

 

As for the more left-field stuff, I, too, wonder if the time has finally come for a realistic RTR Rocket. And, bearing in mind that we are also considering the scope for anniversary specials, a look back at the earliest Hornby and Hornby Dublo catalogues may provide some inspiration...

 

 

[MarkSG]

On 17/12/2019 at 22:47, wombatofludham said:

Interesting observations and I'd noticed the much frothed about little black 0-6-0s were clogging up the bargain buckets at the main box shifters whilst the by popular acclaim "sales lemon" electrics never seem to be remaindered...

 

I suspect that a lot of the BLBLs (Boring Little Black Locos), and other models aimed primarily at hobbyists rather than collectors, are deliberately produced in sufficient quantities to allow them to end up in the bargain bucket towards the end of the sales run. That would be the most effective marketing strategy for that type of product, as it gets the best use out of the assets. You may not want to do that for items that are more collectible, as there, restricting supply so as to maintain a sense of exclusivity will be more rewarding in the long run. But for everyday items, letting the price drop is a good move. 

[tomparryharry]

I'm not! Repeat not! D'you hear me?- Not! Oh, all right then....

 

Dear Mr. Kohler & team, can we have a nice little reworked 2721 pannier, with all of the bells & whistles.....

 

Us Western operators have been really good little boys & girls, for an rntire year. Yes! An entire year......

 

I'm not doing any wishlisting, you understand.....

 

Merry Christmas,

 

The Broad Gauge Blokes. 

 

 

[friscopete]

Golly Gosh .I am so excited .....Maybe this year Rivarossi will make a an Alco S6 in SP colours.