Hornby 2020 range "reveal date" = 6th Jan

[Porcy Mane]

8 minutes ago, Axlebox said:

Uncle P, the world of work does still (at the time of writing) allow you a lunch break!

 

You'll be needing a little Hornby loco, DCC sound of course, and a tiny layout to shunt on to while away that lunch break. That is until lunch breaks become quick bites whilst working. By law!

 

Must away for my afternoon nap. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by Porcy Mane

[NIK]

Hi,

 

Since the Hornby 4 VEP features towards the end of their recent TV advert(s) there must a small chance the 4 VEP will reappear possibly with slight improvements. I've been told the 2nd hand price for Hornby 4VEPs is high but whether todays Hornby typical RRP would be lower I don't know.

 

Having seen the high quality of the image from a £20 HD cube camera on the end of a OO flat wagon streaming to a smartphone via Wifi I would say the technologies almost there for drivers eye view but the repackaging and EMC certification costs may be too high for Hornby (unless one of their continental companies has done it already). Fitting the camera and transmitter into a modern design of diesel or electric loco/MU  would be a challenge as might be getting the radio signal past the chassis block (when the chassis block is between the transmitter and the Wifi Access point, say on some curves).

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

 

[mdvle]

29 minutes ago, NIK said:

Having seen the high quality of the image from a £20 HD cube camera on the end of a OO flat wagon streaming to a smartphone via Wifi I would say the technologies almost there for drivers eye view

 

Technology isn't the problem - the WiFi and camera are all small enough these days that they will easily fit into a normal sized loco.  You can for example instead of using DCC get Bluetooth boards to control a model train.

 

I suspect the problems are cost (how many are willing to pay the extra for the electronics), and more importantly where do you hide the camera?  Some may be happy to live with a camera lens where the driver's head should be (though I wonder of model windows would provide too much distortion), but others will find a camera staring out of the cab distracting.  And for many changing the front of a loco to add a camera lens will be problematic.

 

It's one thing to temporarily attach a camera to a cheap wagon, and then shove it around the layout, another thing entirely to somehow permanently have a camera at the front of a more expensive loco.

 

[MGR Hooper!]

C'mon Phil and Andy....give us a clue!!

[Guest MM1991]

53 minutes ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

Since the Hornby 4 VEP features towards the end of their recent TV advert(s) there must a small chance the 4 VEP will reappear possibly with slight improvements. I've been told the 2nd hand price for Hornby 4VEPs is high but whether todays Hornby typical RRP would be lower I don't know.

 

Having seen the high quality of the image from a £20 HD cube camera on the end of a OO flat wagon streaming to a smartphone via Wifi I would say the technologies almost there for drivers eye view but the repackaging and EMC certification costs may be too high for Hornby (unless one of their continental companies has done it already). Fitting the camera and transmitter into a modern design of diesel or electric loco/MU  would be a challenge as might be getting the radio signal past the chassis block (when the chassis block is between the transmitter and the Wifi Access point, say on some curves).

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

 

Roco and Fleischmann already sell camera fitted loco's

 

 

 

[NIK]

7 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

Technology isn't the problem - the WiFi and camera are all small enough these days that they will easily fit into a normal sized loco.  You can for example instead of using DCC get Bluetooth boards to control a model train.

 

I suspect the problems are cost (how many are willing to pay the extra for the electronics), and more importantly where do you hide the camera?  Some may be happy to live with a camera lens where the driver's head should be (though I wonder of model windows would provide too much distortion), but others will find a camera staring out of the cab distracting.  And for many changing the front of a loco to add a camera lens will be problematic.

 

It's one thing to temporarily attach a camera to a cheap wagon, and then shove it around the layout, another thing entirely to somehow permanently have a camera at the front of a more expensive loco.

 

Hi,

 

I agree about the demands for model realism being in conflict with the practicalities of drivers eye view systems.

 

Maybe the camera could be mounted at the back of the drivers cab. I agree the model windows might need improving to get good enough optical quality.

 

The topic was Hornby and as Hornby tend not to go in for retrofitting so changing the front of a loco to add a camera lens may not come into play.

 

As to cost Bachmann have included a servo operated pantograph to their class 90 and manual controls to their steam crane. So they have judged play value may pay off. People are paying up to £120 for DCC sound decoders to add to their OO or smaller locos.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Legend]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Which is the essence of the problem for Hornby if they were to diversify into any other scale, but TT in particular. I reckon that, in order to be taken seriously, a new TT range would need, from the get-go, a minimum of four locos, half a dozen coaches and a dozen wagons (plus all the other stuff). The level of investment required would constitute a gamble big enough to finish the company if it went badly. 

 

Hornby are, by no means, yet out of the woods in financial terms and strengthening their core offering is the only real option open to them right now.

 

I'm guessing that the game-changing development, hinted at in Simon Kohler's short message, will be something designed to broaden the hobby's appeal on the back of the success of the GMRC on TV.

 

An earlier post mentioned (in jest) forward-facing micro-cameras in loco cabs, I expect them in all seriousness, and sooner rather than later. Many DCC users already control their layouts via smartphones or tablets, and a driver's-eye view  would be a logical addition with serious wow-factor.

 

John 

 

Yes agree , if they were to go TT , and that is a high risk strategy, perhaps not really what they need now, then they would need to introduce a range from day 1.    Would people stop modelling their existing N and OO layouts and make transition though ?  Really a tricky one

 

Broadening the hobbies appeal following GMRC ?   The Hornby Tree Crocheting set?   Maybe a tie up with Chemistry sets and a build your own volcano set complete with Lava.

 

A drivers eye view is certainly logical . There are a lot of decent cams out there now that you can Bluetooth to your phone and see pics of your layout .  I think other than that a rage of reasonably priced models , like last years 66 is also the way to become more appealling

 

[mdvle]

8 minutes ago, Legend said:

Yes agree , if they were to go TT , and that is a high risk strategy, perhaps not really what they need now, then they would need to introduce a range from day 1.    Would people stop modelling their existing N and OO layouts and make transition though ?  Really a tricky one

 

Don't necessarily need people to transition though - every year the combination of new people to hobby, returning people, people starting a new layout anyway, plus those who are willing to change scale is likely large enough to make TT viable.

 

The problem is there is a difference between viable, and generating the best amount of profit, and as stated Hornby is in the current position that they really need the best amount of profit option.

[gwrrob]

I wonder what the chances are of Hornby doing a post war GWR liveried Castle with a Collett tender are....

[Dunsignalling]

36 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

Technology isn't the problem - the WiFi and camera are all small enough these days that they will easily fit into a normal sized loco.  You can for example instead of using DCC get Bluetooth boards to control a model train.

 

I suspect the problems are cost (how many are willing to pay the extra for the electronics), and more importantly where do you hide the camera?  Some may be happy to live with a camera lens where the driver's head should be (though I wonder of model windows would provide too much distortion), but others will find a camera staring out of the cab distracting.  And for many changing the front of a loco to add a camera lens will be problematic.

 

It's one thing to temporarily attach a camera to a cheap wagon, and then shove it around the layout, another thing entirely to somehow permanently have a camera at the front of a more expensive loco.

 

Obvious place to put the lens (on D/E locos) would be in the headlamp cluster or headcode panel. Avoids any issues with plastic windscreens.

 

Steam locos are more tricky as they really need to view down the side of the boiler to give the right effect.

 

John

[The Johnster]

23 minutes ago, Legend said:

A drivers eye view is certainly logical

All drivers are oranges but not all oranges are drivers.   There are other points of view that could easily be used in VR as well; guards, stationmasters, wagon examiners, signalmen.  

[Dunsignalling]

44 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

Don't necessarily need people to transition though - every year the combination of new people to hobby, returning people, people starting a new layout anyway, plus those who are willing to change scale is likely large enough to make TT viable.

 

The problem is there is a difference between viable, and generating the best amount of profit, and as stated Hornby is in the current position that they really need the best amount of profit option.

I don't think there's much doubt that TT could generate enough of a following to succeed in time. 

 

However, there are two big problems that I consider would prevent any prudent business touching it.

 

1. it's not something that could "start small" and be worked up gently to a full range, and a costly "big bang" launch of a whole system has to generate rapid payback. Put brutally, it has to pay for itself, with a big enough profit margin on top to satisfy shareholders and continue investing, before the company runs out of money. Realistically, that's going to be months rather than years.

 

2. All that pales into insignificance alongside the really big issue, which is "What is TT?" The old Tri-ang stuff was TT3, 3mm scale (1:100) on 12mm gauge, so was even less accurate than OO! Neither Hornby or anyone else would get away with that today. Continental TT uses the same gauge but 2.5mm to the foot scale (1:120). So, do you keep 1:100 scale and change the gauge to 13.5mm or thereabouts which loses most of any space advantage over OO or go the continental route, which offers relatively little increase (+25% linear over N) to the size of individual models? 

 

And that's why it just ain't gonna happen.

 

John

Edited January 2, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[NoggintheNog]

Last year walthers introduced wifi controlled train sets to the US market.

 

https://www.walthers.com/flyer-express-trainset-with-sound-and-dcc-csx

 

I can see Hornby doing something similar.

Edited January 2, 2020 by NoggintheNog

[Chrisr40]

TTS buildings ? Station buildings with lots of varied station themed announcements and no ducks or combine harvesters. 

[Anglian]

I think Dunsignalling hits the nail squarely on the head – what is TT?

 

This has been discussed elsewhere before but it remains a difficult decision. I would favour following the established UK scale but using the 3mm equivalent of EM so a track gauge of 13.5mm but this is probably the least compatible of all options for the vast majority of existing TT modellers of British layouts.

The other big issue would be should they start with a steam or diesel locomotive? Currently I don't have any layout but if they offered a steam loco I'd probably buy it whatever era or company and design a small layout around it as I like the scale so much.

I think they could launch a range with one loco, a couple of coaches and four or five wagons but only if they committed to expanding rapidly. I imagine they could scale down 4mm CAD so much of the design work would have already been done.

[ThaneofFife]

it could also open up from  people who want rtr 3mm scale track rather than the flawed 00 gauge based on 4mm.  i would like to think a well judged train set with a diesel and some coaches or wagon and a basic oval with siding could be enough to tempt buyers but the range would need to quickly build up and to get to the same place we are at now with 00, N and even 0 gauge could mean many of us would be dead before you could build an equivallent collection in 3mm scale.

 

its a very tricky one but maybe it could become the new N gauge (if that makes sense).

[Guest MM1991]

1 hour ago, Anglian said:

I think Dunsignalling hits the nail squarely on the head – what is TT?

 

This has been discussed elsewhere before but it remains a difficult decision. I would favour following the established UK scale but using the 3mm equivalent of EM so a track gauge of 13.5mm but this is probably the least compatible of all options for the vast majority of existing TT modellers of British layouts.

The other big issue would be should they start with a steam or diesel locomotive? Currently I don't have any layout but if they offered a steam loco I'd probably buy it whatever era or company and design a small layout around it as I like the scale so much.

I think they could launch a range with one loco, a couple of coaches and four or five wagons but only if they committed to expanding rapidly. I imagine they could scale down 4mm CAD so much of the design work would have already been done.

A Jinty, Black 5, 20, 37, 12t vans, 16t mins, 13t open, BR brake van, air braked vaa/vba/oba and mk1's,  set track curves, straights and points, with flexi-track following on I think would be the minimum range launch - ideally to the 3mm society scale of 101.6 with 14.2 mm gauge.  That way people could make use of 3mm society products to expand quicker rather than relying on Hornby adding more products

[adb968008]

4 minutes ago, MM1991 said:

A Jinty, Black 5, 20, 37, 12t vans, 16t mins, 13t open, BR brake van, air braked vaa/vba/oba and mk1's,  set track curves, straights and points, with flexi-track following on I think would be the minimum range launch - ideally to the 3mm society scale of 101.6 with 14.2 mm gauge.  That way people could make use of 3mm society products to expand quicker rather than relying on Hornby adding more products

A TT gauge wishlist...

 

ive got to admit if there was an industry shift and new tech from the outset, I’d consider TT but a drip feed of models probably wouldn't. The amount of investment in itself though would be a deterrent for the industry I could suspect.

Edited January 2, 2020 by adb968008

[Guest MM1991]

3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

A TT gauge wishlist...

 

ive got to admit if there was an industry shift and new tech from the outset, I’d consider TT but a drip feed of models probably wouldn't. The amount of investment in itself though would be a deterrent for the industry I could suspect.

Yeah thats the thing, it would need to be a sizeable range launch, which would be extremely expensive.

 

My main interests lie in the period around 86-93, i dont know if I'd be tempted if a range like the above was launched

[AY Mod]

I'll close this topic off before the embargo time.

[Paddy]

As previously mentioned, if you could get PECO onboard for the track then that would spread the investment.  As for a launch range, I would go with something like the above and sell it in sets/train packs initially.  This would hopefully mean greater Initial volumes.  Also, include a Motorail wagon so Corgi/OD could produce TT model cars.

 

Why not include 12 months membership of the 3mm Society with each set sold so you instantly feel part of a community.  Buildings could initially be something like the block with stickers that Graham Farish (pre-Bachmann) used to sell.  Whilst not great, they would be effective in this scale, be fun to make, be included in train sets and relatively low cost.

 

For me it would be important that there is a roadmap showing plans for the next 3-5 years and then Hornby must deliver against it.  If momentum can be established then I am sure other manufacturers and retailers would get onboard and expand the scale.

Edit: and to be clear, I would almost certainly switch from N gauge to TT.

 

It certainly is an exciting idea but as has been previously stated, high risk.

 

Kind regards

 

Paddy

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by Paddy

[JohnR]

I think the main danger for Hornby is the risk that they alienate their existing customers, eg, by not providing new models that they want, because they are diverting resources (not just financial) into the "new" idea - whatever that is. 

[Anglian]

I suppose one of the selling points would be that for the first time it would be possible to buy British outline R-T-R with a true scale to gauge relationship, if they went for 14.2mm. I'd absolutely be all over it but sadly can't see it ever happening.
 

[tomparryharry]

On 30/12/2019 at 13:35, wombatofludham said:

Once again, I ask why would Hornby - a business - throw away tens of thousands of pounds tooling up a new range of starter locos when the existing fat Pug and Holden-ish locos more than satisfy the market they are aimed at?  They are aimed at the starter market, not high end collectors, they are simple, robust and probably cheap to make.  They sell.  They are appealing. They can put up with a lot of abuse.  The chassis can cope with Radius 1 curves laid on carpet, which isn't guaranteed for a smaller wheelbase with finnicky modern motors.  Above all, they bring in loads of money which can be re-used to fund the more critically designed models for adults where fidelity is more important.  For a children's starter set, sold in supermarkets to parents or grandparents wanting a brand name they can trust, the Bagnall shunter, Holden and fat Pug in pretty colours ticks all the boxes.  And earns Hornby a decent mark up on a bundle of stuff that has cost a few pounds to manufacture but which can retail at a lot more.  

Just because the trainset locos are compromised, or look "crap" to adult modellers, doesn't mean Hornby should be using scarce investment funds to replace them unless the moulds and chassis are life expired.  Which of you would be willing to give up on the dreams of your own pet wishlist items to free up investment to create replacements for the Holden and Pug to satisfy the real market that frankly isn't demanding they be replaced?  Don't all shout at once...

 

Having talked to Doris (she does the fruit & veg) over at Tesco Westwood, she's let me know about the latest 'must have'. It's an entirely new scale, about half-way between 00, and o gauge. The new scale is to be called OT scale. There is one proviso, however, you can only have one genre within the hobby. So, if you like L&NER stuff, you can only buy L&NER stuff. That's what happens if you go OT. 

 

The first new model is, apparently, a new release of that well-renowned locomotive, Flying Scotsman, painted dayglo orange. To encourage the younger people to take up the hobby, it'll be clockwork powered. 

 

Sounds like a wind-up to me...... 

 

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, MM1991 said:

A Jinty, Black 5, 20, 37, 12t vans, 16t mins, 13t open, BR brake van, air braked vaa/vba/oba and mk1's,  set track curves, straights and points, with flexi-track following on I think would be the minimum range launch - ideally to the 3mm society scale of 101.6 with 14.2 mm gauge.  That way people could make use of 3mm society products to expand quicker rather than relying on Hornby adding more products

Trouble with 14.2 is that it's the 3mm equivalent of P4 and requires larger curves than OO,

 

No locos there to interest me and it 's academic in my case anyway, I'm far too heavily committed to OO and my age would be in three figures before any range of TT locos got into two.

 

John