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Hornby 2020 range "reveal date" = 6th Jan


phil gollin
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And this is part of the problem with TT where 12mm or 14.2mm are the current popular options but the happy medium (EM equivalent) of 13.5mm is very rare and such a choice might preclude existing 3mm modellers from fully supporting the range. RTR TT is fraught with difficult choices. I think they'd more likely adopt 12mm even though it's even more of an anachronism than OO.

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2 minutes ago, Anglian said:

And this is part of the problem with TT where 12mm or 14.2mm are the current popular options but the happy medium (EM equivalent) of 13.5mm is very rare and such a choice might preclude existing 3mm modellers from fully supporting the range. RTR TT is fraught with difficult choices. I think they'd more likely adopt 12mm even though it's even more of an anachronism than OO.

IMHO, any announcement by Hornby of a return to 3mm scale (irrespective of gauge) would amount to a suicide note.  TT3 is, in scale terms, an even greater nonsense than OO and 3mm fine scale (14.2mm) would offer no space advantage over their existing OO products. 

 

Whatever combination they chose would alienate as many existing TT users as it pleased and, in any case, I think many of them would prefer it to remain a "modellers' scale".

 

I don't consider that Hornby would be wise, in their current position, to diversify into other scales/gauges than OO, but if they were to do so, they'd best choose something with an established single set of standards. That rules out TT more comprehensively than almost any other.

 

John

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5 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

2. All that pales into insignificance alongside the really big issue, which is "What is TT?" The old Tri-ang stuff was TT3, 3mm scale (1:100) on 12mm gauge, so was even less accurate than OO! Neither Hornby or anyone else would get away with that today. Continental TT uses the same gauge but 2.5mm to the foot scale (1:120). So, do you keep 1:100 scale and change the gauge to 13.5mm or thereabouts which loses most of any space advantage over OO or go the continental route, which offers relatively little increase (+25% linear over N) to the size of individual models?

 

If anyone, individual or as a group, decided to try and do RTR TT then the best option would be to go with the existing larger market continental version.

 

This makes TT more attractive by making more mechanisms available for kitbashing (3D printed items!) as well as providing additional sales potential for any prototypes that have managed to cross the channel - say Classes 66, 86, 58, Eurostars, etc and for some of the other stuff you may even get the occasional EU modeller purchase for a train "in transit" from the EU based factory to either the EU based testing facilities or to the UK.

 

And while it may seem a small difference from N, it doesn't take much necessarily to make things like DCC, sound that much easier while still offering a layout size advantage over OO.

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On 27/12/2019 at 14:58, The Johnster said:

The company we know as Hornby is genetically Rovex/Triang, and Hornby Dublo ceased to exist along with the rest of Frank Hornby's Meccano empire many years ago in the late 60s.  Hornby 0 gauge had already disappeared by that time, and some of the Hornby Dublo products continued in production under the Wrenn banner.  

 

Triang had bought the rights to the Hornby name and rebranded itself as Triang Hornby, then after a while dropped the Triang, as the Hornby name had more market presence than Triang, despite no ex-Hornby Dublo products being available in the 'Hornby' range.  Wrenn went out of business in 2015, and some ex Hornby Dublo wagon toolings are still being produced by Dapol.  

 

Hornby, the trading name, was a very sensible acquisition for Triang Railways, enabling them to dispose of the competition (Wrenn were, arguably, servicing a different market and in any case became part of the Triang empire eventually) and identify with what was then and still is the default household name for model railways in the UK.  

It's genetically Rovex, but the current range owes much less to that heritage than it did 25 years ago, and features tooling developed in China, acquired from Dapol (ex-Airfix) and Lima as well as Margate tooling sent to China. On a factual point, the Triang name was dropped because after the Triang (Lines Brothers) group went into administration in 1971, the administrators sold the Triang tradename to another buyer with part of the nursery toy range and so Dunbee-Combex-Marx did not have the right to it when they acquired Rovex although they did get the Hornby trademark. Wrenn had been acquired by the Lines Brothers group in 1967 but used the administration to buy themselves out again, they essentially carried on the Hornby-Dublo range until 1992 when the original firm closed down. The name and tooling passed through Dapol (who still own and use a number of the original H-D plastic wagon body tools) - the Wrenn company that was wound up in 2015 was a successor company set up to manage the spares, history and some limited wagon releases rather than a full scale manufacturing outlet.

 

At this distance I think the current Hornby company have earned the right to the spirit of the original company as well as the name. The market they serve these days is very similar to the classic 1930s Hornby firm which at one end made models that competed with the scale offerings but was always more family oriented than the 'serious' suppliers and always endeavoured to market a complete system. 

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Theres an odd but easy possibility all the speculation has missed..

forget VR, AR or TT... they could just move to making HO... no need to change track, most high st customers wouldnt notice and UK modellers would be dragged kicking and screaming into the same gauge as the rest of the world... best of all the 0-4-0 could continue as is..

though in HO it would be a “Honey I shrunk the trains” moment.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, rovex said:

Interestingly this year although the frothfest started surprisingly early I have noticed a decided lack of real froth. A lot of off topic and history but not much froth.

Have we lost interest?


go on then...

Ivor the engine


Ruston Morden United Dairies, with a new tooled milk tank would be nice.

Signal box sounds / Station announcer sounds.

 

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24 minutes ago, rovex said:

Interestingly this year although the frothfest started surprisingly early I have noticed a decided lack of real froth. A lot of off topic and history but not much froth.

Have we lost interest?

 

The newer competitors of the last several years are much better at the social media game and generating interest, leaving the established players falling behind.

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1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

IMHO, any announcement by Hornby of a return to 3mm scale (irrespective of gauge) would amount to a suicide note.  TT3 is, in scale terms, an even greater nonsense than OO and 3mm fine scale (14.2mm) would offer no space advantage over their existing OO products. 

 

Whatever combination they chose would alienate as many existing TT users as it pleased and, in any case, I think many of them would prefer it to remain a "modellers' scale".

 

I don't consider that Hornby would be wise, in their current position, to diversify into other scales/gauges than OO, but if they were to do so, they'd best choose something with an established single set of standards. That rules out TT more comprehensively than almost any other.

 

John

Having modelled in 3mm scale, I can't fathom your logic that 3mm offers no space saving over 4mm scale. Everything is 25% smaller. 3mm or TT is in many ways the perfect scale. Academic though. I can't see Hornby diversifying, at least while they are working to strengthen their existing business.

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3 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

Having modelled in 3mm scale, I can't fathom your logic that 3mm offers no space saving over 4mm scale. Everything is 25% smaller. 3mm or TT is in many ways the perfect scale. Academic though. I can't see Hornby diversifying, at least while they are working to strengthen their existing business.

 

I think the argument is based on the fact that if true scale track gauge of 14.2mm is chosen, then the curves cannot be sharp (as they are in OO), so you lose the compact nature of an oval layout. 

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Interesting that this has appeared in the ads on the page:

 

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1164250/Model_Builder/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz8qi-ozm5gIV1hIbCh3nogrUEAEYASAAEgIyBfD_BwE

 

I’m somewhat struggling to see the point of pretending to paint, model, glue etc...

 

What would be out of the box, would be an accessible software tool that allowed you to build models that could be 3D printed and painted by the manufacturer. Perhaps take a base model, pick the details you want, get it printed/produced for delivery to you.  More like the way you order a new car with higher levels of consumer customisation.  However, I can’t see that working with the extended supply chain. 

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52 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Theres an odd but easy possibility all the speculation has missed..

forget VR, AR or TT... they could just move to making HO... no need to change track, most high st customers wouldnt notice and UK modellers would be dragged kicking and screaming into the same gauge as the rest of the world... best of all the 0-4-0 could continue as is..

though in HO it would be a “Honey I shrunk the trains” moment.

 

 

That’s a good idea. I could stop buying stuff which I can’t resist and use the time I spend sticking bits on, or back on, or trying to get things repaired and just enjoy the stuff I already have. In amongst it all is an HO Warship diesel, bought out of curiosity and very cheaply. The picture should show why any manufacturer who produces British H0 will go down the tubes leaving the rest to clean up.

00 H0.jpg

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9 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

One way or another, most (if not all) of that is already available from established providers of rail simulation software.

 

John 

 

And there are ways of interfacing both 'train sim' and 'signalling sim' into a working layout - I've done the first (albeit only at an experimental stage so far) and hope to have the second working later this year!

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The big news this year will not only celebrate 100 years if Hornby model trains, but will usher in a new era of sustainable model railways.

Hornby fully intend to play its part in the Green Revolution.


No longer can model train makers justify producing models in eco-unfriendly, polluting, oil base plastics and unrecyclable, poisonous metals, using high energy dependent manufacturing processes.

 

Hornby will be leading the way by producing its new 2020 range in sustainable materials, including Scandinavian wood, woven flax and Vegan friendly products.

A new wooden track range will be available to match, produced from renewable northern hemishere forests and not from the decimation of tropical rain forests.

Hornby have also developed a new green energy source to power and control this new revolutionary range of model trains.

Named to reflect the Russian heritage of its designer, Hornby have branded this control system as PushTek .

Pushtek controlled trains require no electricity and produce zero CO2 emissions in use.

 

Two new train sets will also be released to coincide with and commemorate this bold new move into a Hornby sustainable, new future; 

the Greta Green freight train set and the Thunderberg Express.

 

 

 

You heard it first, here on RMweb.

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2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I

 

I don't consider that Hornby would be wise, in their current position, to diversify into other scales/gauges than OO, but if they were to do so, they'd best choose something with an established single set of standards. That rules out TT more comprehensively than almost any other.

 

John

Most of Hornby's European lines are HO scale.  Arnold is of course N.  Remember that Hornby internationally is much bigger than the English market.

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8 hours ago, Denbridge said:

Having modelled in 3mm scale, I can't fathom your logic that 3mm offers no space saving over 4mm scale. Everything is 25% smaller. 3mm or TT is in many ways the perfect scale. Academic though. I can't see Hornby diversifying, at least while they are working to strengthen their existing business.

TT3 does what you say and, when TT is mentioned, most of us in the UK think of it.  However, (re)launching model trains into today's market with a scale/gauge discrepancy even worse than much-maligned OO is just not credible.

 

The clearances involved in finescale TT at 14.2mm gauge are much smaller, somewhat akin to those in P4, which means that, unless you exclude running outside cylinder steam-outline locos, it should require minimum radii of (interpolating from P4 requirements) something in the region of 3' 6".

 

OK trains are going to be shorter and those running only diesels/electrics or small steam locos don't have the same issues, but otherwise, as with P4, overall layout size/area increases unless one is willing to limit oneself to a straight terminus-to-fiddle yard arrangement. Any roundy-round or L/U-shaped terminus -FY set up will need the bigger curves.

 

It sounds counterintuitive, but Hornby's thing is big, green, named steam locos so such limitations wouldn't be acceptable and a layout to run them on in 3mm/14.2 would need more room than a comparable one in 4mm/16.5. 

 

I agree that Hornby are currently in no position to risk so drastic a diversification from their established business so, as you say, it's academic. That said, given the upturn in the fortunes of OO9, maybe better commercial opportunities for 12mm gauge might lie in 3' N/g to 4mm scale....and, they could sell it as a adjunct to OO rather than competing with themselves.

 

John

   

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6 hours ago, autocoach said:

Most of Hornby's European lines are HO scale.  Arnold is of course N.  Remember that Hornby internationally is much bigger than the English market.

Arguably true, but Hornby's international acquisitions mainly arose from those businesses becoming unsustainable individually. Are they, therefore, part of the solution, or part of the problem for Hornby?

 

In any case, this thread is really concerned with speculating/fantasizing over what Hornby might announce on Monday for the UK market.

 

John

 

 

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My predictions: everything will still be 00 based and all of the TT froth will get put on ice until next year. 

 

If Hornby were rolling in money, then maybe TT could happen alongside 00, but they aren’t and to just abandon 00 would be suicidal. 

 

Roy

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Only 3 days until the big reveal.......

 

I’d be surprised if Hornby were to go into either TT or N, the payback would be measured in years / decades and could be a very slow burn.


Something to harness new entrants into the hobby has to be a winner.... entry level sets, along the lines of their “family” train set approach. (More railroad style, rather than wooden push along).

 

I agree about cameras on board your new HST etc. Plugging that into a wider world technology..... your fiddle yard isn’t the end of your layout...... Paddington is..... you drive from Henley on Thames, plug in modules and get to PDN in an hour......

 

Failing that, I’d like to see a new GWR Saint / 57xx (no top feed) / Collet restaurant carriages / K22 full brake!

 

Only 3 days..... no one has said why the announcement has been brought forward from 10am to 9am..... Is Simon Kohler doing a live feed?

 

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1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Arguably true, but Hornby's international acquisitions mainly arose from those businesses becoming unsustainable individually. Are they, therefore, part of the solution, or part of the problem for Hornby?

 

In any case, this thread is really concerned with speculating/fantasizing over what Hornby might announce on Monday for the UK market.

 

John

 

 

 

Part of the problem in my view. Not the first time that a company has taken on other businesses that have ultimately been a burden rather than a benefit.

 

It could have been so different if they had been in a position to maximise the opportunities for these brands in their home markets. It would certainly have been better to take on Jouef when it first became available rather than let it go to Lima.

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3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

That said, given the upturn in the fortunes of OO9, maybe better commercial opportunities for 12mm gauge might lie in 3' N/g to 4mm scale....and, they could sell it as a adjunct to OO rather than competing with themselves.

 

OO9 would be a mistake, they'd be treading on a lawn already colonised by other manufacturers, Bachmann, Heljan and Peco already offer OO9 product and Hornby might be seen as merely making a "me too" effort.  OO12 wouldn't look that different and might not catch the railway-buying publics attention.

 

But narrow gauge might be an interesting proposal in another scale.  O-16.5* might be a possibility, as it allows entry into 7mm scale that other manufacturers are making more "interesting" but is differentiated, quirky and is perhaps suitable for the older modeller :rolleyes:. They could even have Main-Range and Railroad variants too....      Mechanisms would be within Hornbys comfort range and it shouldn't be too difficult to produce suitable sleeper mouldings to go with their OO gauge track geometry.  And with Narrow Gauge we could see a viable resurgence in the use of Radius 1 curves!

 

Another thought, with careful selection of sleeper spacing/size and surface decoration, Hornby O-16.5 track could be promoted as suitable for OO light railway/industrial usage to accompany their Pecketts, Rustons and 0-4-0 starter blobs...

 

 

* And then there would be people looking at O-EM and O-P4 just to be different...

 

Edited by Hroth
Another thought...
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13 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Part of the problem in my view. Not the first time that a company has taken on other businesses that have ultimately been a burden rather than a benefit.

 

It could have been so different if they had been in a position to maximise the opportunities for these brands in their home markets. It would certainly have been better to take on Jouef when it first became available rather than let it go to Lima.

and yet the Half Year report states the European business has had the highest growth of any part of the Group in 2019 (no doubt from a small base - it's a big market). And the numbers show it is the closest to being profitable. 

 

Maybe they've got it right this time around?

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38 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

OO9 would be a mistake, they'd be treading on a lawn already colonised by other manufacturers, Bachmann, Heljan and Peco already offer OO9 product and Hornby might be seen as merely making a "me too" effort.  OO12 wouldn't look that different and might not catch the railway-buying publics attention.

 

But narrow gauge might be an interesting proposal in another scale.  O-16.5* might be a possibility, as it allows entry into 7mm scale that other manufacturers are making more "interesting" but is differentiated, quirky and is perhaps suitable for the older modeller :rolleyes:. They could even have Main-Range and Railroad variants too....      Mechanisms would be within Hornbys comfort range and it shouldn't be too difficult to produce suitable sleeper mouldings to go with their OO gauge track geometry.  And with Narrow Gauge we could see a viable resurgence in the use of Radius 1 curves!

 

* And then there would be people looking at O-EM and O-P4 just to be different...

 

O-14 is the established true-scale combo for 2' gauge prototypes in 7mm scale.

 

I agree that O-16.5 might offer possibilities for Hornby in the event that they did decide to diversify. As you say, the mechanical synergies with OO would help in various ways. It wouldn't have any r-t-r opposition and would be practical to launch with a couple of locos and a limited range of stock in a way that (for instance) TT standard gauge would not.  

 

Bachmann USA seem to have done very nicely out of On30 for some years and I'm a little surprised that there has never been a move towards a UK equivalent. I therefore suspect Hornby might not be the most likely source. First r-t-r loco? Probably a Quarry Hunslet (and from Bachmann as they are already developing one for OO9). Second one? Who could resist a 7mm scale Double Fairlie?

 

John

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