Fat Controller Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, Hobby said: Isn't that a different thing, though, I didn't think this piece of line has a "stop" board which has a very different meaning. The STOP board was on the exit road; it seems it is being treated as a SPAD. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 29, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 29, 2019 8 minutes ago, Fat Controller said: The STOP board was on the exit road; it seems it is being treated as a SPAD. If a STOP board is passed without authority it is automatically a SPAD - that's been the case for a long time 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Fat Controller said: The STOP board was on the exit road; it seems it is being treated as a SPAD. I'm getting confused now. I thought this was on the entry road? Or are you saying that there was a stop board on this line facing (therefore applicable to) these units and this stop board was passed without stopping (by I assume, the 800)? Edited November 29, 2019 by Hobby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 29, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 29, 2019 1 minute ago, Hobby said: I'm getting confused now. I thought this was on the entry road? Or are you saying that there was a stop board on this line facing (therefore applicable to) these units and this stop board was passed without stopping (by I assume, the 800)? No (in the context of the collision) - this referred to another incident mentioned on the previous page. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 Ah, I see, sorry I thought we were talking about the subject collision! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted November 29, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 29, 2019 There are lots of stop boards on the depot Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted November 29, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 29, 2019 I'm surprised nobody has commented on 800109 moving to Doncaster Carr under its own power. For a damaged train subject to investigation that is a surprise to me and implies that all the electrical and traction systems have been thoroughly examined and confirmed to be in working order. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 29, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, brushman47544 said: I'm surprised nobody has commented on 800109 moving to Doncaster Carr under its own power. For a damaged train subject to investigation that is a surprise to me and implies that all the electrical and traction systems have been thoroughly examined and confirmed to be in working order. What we don't know is how much of the unit's power train etc was in working order beyond the fact that there was sufficient power available to move it at slow speed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Covkid Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, Fat Controller said: It was on a permissively-signalled section, I believe. 5 hours ago, Hobby said: Isn't that a different thing, though, I didn't think this piece of line has a "stop" board which has a very different meaning. 5 hours ago, Fat Controller said: The STOP board was on the exit road; it seems it is being treated as a SPAD. 5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said: If a STOP board is passed without authority it is automatically a SPAD - that's been the case for a long time 4 hours ago, Hobby said: I'm getting confused now. I thought this was on the entry road? Or are you saying that there was a stop board on this line facing (therefore applicable to) these units and this stop board was passed without stopping (by I assume, the 800)? 4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said: No (in the context of the collision) - this referred to another incident mentioned on the previous page. AIUI the HST was signalled from Leeds onto the line in question which is the Up Hull Goods line, thence through more pointwork, presumably to a stop board where a Neville Hill shunter / supervisor authorises the movement onto the depot. The IET was following the same route off the main line onto the UHGL - permissively - when it collided with the HST in front. Presumably the HST was either approaching the stop board or had authorisation to pass it when the collision to it's rear occurred. Edited November 29, 2019 by Covkid typo 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 Time to spend some money and fully signal this depot entrance line. Over in America unsignaled main lines are known as "Bow and arrow country" - not right in 2019 in the Uk, especially a busy city like Leeds in this day and age. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted November 29, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 29, 2019 10 minutes ago, APOLLO said: Time to spend some money and fully signal this depot entrance line. Over in America unsignaled main lines are known as "Bow and arrow country" - not right in 2019 in the Uk, especially a busy city like Leeds in this day and age. Brit15 All depots are like this , you cant signal them as so busy on a night when there are so many trains about 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 4 hours ago, brushman47544 said: I'm surprised nobody has commented on 800109 moving to Doncaster Carr under its own power. For a damaged train subject to investigation that is a surprise to me and implies that all the electrical and traction systems have been thoroughly examined and confirmed to be in working order. I'm not. As collisions and derailments go, this one was quite tame. Patently one wheelset was deemed a non-runner, as it had to be put on a skate, which would enforce a slow speed on its own. Jim 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted November 29, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 29, 2019 13 minutes ago, APOLLO said: Time to spend some money and fully signal this depot entrance line. Over in America unsignaled main lines are known as "Bow and arrow country" - not right in 2019 in the Uk, especially a busy city like Leeds in this day and age. Quite unnecessary. Timetable and Train Order signalling in dark territory is completely different. Permissive working, on freight lines as well as modern depot access roads, has been a safe part of British signalling practice forever. It relies upon each driver being alert, that's all. I offer no evidence that there was a lapse of concentration in the 8xx - other causes are possible - but it is up there with any other theory. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 14 minutes ago, russ p said: All depots are like this , you cant signal them as so busy on a night when there are so many trains about Not so - the new Springs Branch depot (opens soon) alongside the old one is fully signalled. Some new signals here also. No excuses - Skimping in the extreme at Leeds - We do things properly here in Wigan !! Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted November 29, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Covkid said: AIUI the HST was signalled from Leeds onto the line in question which is the Up Hull Goods line, It's actually the "Down Goods Line". 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken.W Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 4 hours ago, APOLLO said: Not so - the new Springs Branch depot (opens soon) alongside the old one is fully signalled. Some new signals here also. No excuses - Skimping in the extreme at Leeds - We do things properly here in Wigan !! Brit15 Errm no, that's signaled by Position Light, ie shunt, Signals which are Permissive, and the ones in view will be provided to control movements through power-operated points. It's not skimping! It's how depots have always been worked, and helps keep trains moving where they're only traveling a very low speed anyway, 15mph has been quoted for the goods line in this incident, and standard speed on a depot these days is 5mph. Many points in sidings on depots are generally hand-operated so can't be signaled, movements being controlled by a shunter. If you tried applying main line signaling on depots they'd grind to a halt. Permissive working's also how you manage to couple two 5-car 80x's together in service when attaching portions, or couple a loco to a train etc 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken.W Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 9 hours ago, brushman47544 said: I'm surprised nobody has commented on 800109 moving to Doncaster Carr under its own power. For a damaged train subject to investigation that is a surprise to me and implies that all the electrical and traction systems have been thoroughly examined and confirmed to be in working order. Probably easier than trying to couple a loco to one of those things 4 hours ago, jim.snowdon said: I'm not. As collisions and derailments go, this one was quite tame. Patently one wheelset was deemed a non-runner, as it had to be put on a skate, which would enforce a slow speed on its own. Jim I'm surprised that in such a low speed incident it required skating. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Sorry, Apollo, But no. Professional railwaymen, including me although from near fifty years ago, have no issues with permissive working; it does the job. It would be very difficult to operate some environments without it. It does require vigilance by the drivers of following trains, that's all. That was a general comment and not to be taken as applying to the collision under discussion. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 7 hours ago, Ken.W said: I'm surprised that in such a low speed incident it required skating. It was probably one of those bogies that came off. Perhaps it hit something it shouldn't have and damaged it, brake linkage for instance and it was easier just to skate it... I've seen plenty of damage at slow speeds where it's been more than it should be due to individual circumstances... No doubt it'll all come out in the wash! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 I'll leave judgement re permissive working to those professional railwaymen who have posted here. Thankyou. I hope lessons will be learned (whatever they are) AND acted upon swiftly, regardless of cost. Brit15 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted November 30, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 30, 2019 (edited) It's been noted by Royal Oak further back in the thread that on the Western, at least that the change from rheostatic braking to air braking is at an awkward speed, could this be the case on the Eastern? Sorry the thread is more likely to be the 800 thread, rather than this one. Edited November 30, 2019 by Siberian Snooper The apology. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 37 minutes ago, APOLLO said: I'll leave judgement re permissive working to those professional railwaymen who have posted here. Thankyou. I hope lessons will be learned (whatever they are) AND acted upon swiftly, regardless of cost. Brit15 One thing that is certain is that any changes that result will not be regardless of cost. Whatever happens it will be determined by what is reasonably practicable. The principle of as safe as is reasonably practicable applies, and has been enshrined in safety law for over half a century. Jim 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said: It's been noted by Royal Oak further back in the thread that on the Western, at least that the change from rheostatic braking to air braking is at an awkward speed, could this be the case on the Eastern? It will be something that the RAIB will doubtless be considering. Jim 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Covkid Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 13 hours ago, iands said: It's actually the "Down Goods Line". Oops !!! Thanks for the correction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 51 minutes ago, APOLLO said: I'll leave judgement re permissive working to those professional railwaymen who have posted here. Thankyou. I hope lessons will be learned (whatever they are) AND acted upon swiftly, regardless of cost. Brit15 6 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said: One thing that is certain is that any changes that result will not be regardless of cost. Whatever happens it will be determined by what is reasonably practicable. The principle of as safe as is reasonably practicable applies, and has been enshrined in safety law for over half a century. Jim Indeed. There are already too many complaints about high ticket prices. Make railways too expensive and you will cause more road fatalities than you will save railway fatalities. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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