LNER empty trains collided, service disruptions expected

[Ken.W]

30 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The problem is that is precisely what they have become!

 

Why do you think First went and converted the HSTs they used at the time on Bristol runs to a 'high density' layout without a buffet car a decade or so ago?

 

Now admittedly London to Edinburgh is not quite the same as London to Bristol and it may well be that what is really needed is two variants of 800s (just as although the Bristol runs used 'high density' HST sets, workings to Devon / Cornwall retained more seats at tables plus the buffet car), however if the dfT / TOCs want to go down the 'uniform fleet' setup then inevitably its long distance travellers that will be forced to lose.

 

Not on East Coast, and yes London - Edinburgh, and beyond, would be more like the Devon/Cornwall services than London - Bristol. Though the London - Yorkshire services may be more like the Bristols, the sets on those aren't on separate diagrams but work cyclic diagrams covering main ECML services too, often necessary for platform availability / turn-round times at KX.

Yes that's the way the DaFT wanted to go if you prefer a railway run by them, the TOC however had to take what they were given!

And yes it's long distance travelers that lose out, or more likely, will go by air / motorway when they find they can't take their luggage on the train. This the sort of railway you want?
 

29 minutes ago, Hobby said:

They might be supposed to be long distance ic trains but most of the passengers aren't. These days we have a bigger percentage of short/medium distance commuters who more often than not outnumber the long distance crowd. with increased in the number of trains and stops it has encouraged the long distance commuter who are often the majority. Hence seats take priority over luggage on modern trains.

 

Yes I do have trouble in getting them to use the spaces we have and an awful lot of people don't like their bags to be out if sight. It may be different on London centric ic trains but I can assure you my experience is as I have stated. I don't make things up for the sake of it. i only wish what you say is true but my experience at work is that it isn't. 

 

Not on EC, there's still a large volume of long-distance travel. Why do you think Edinburgh - London's now a half-hourly service during most of the day? Or Virgin, when they were in charge were specifically targeting Edinburgh - London travel? For shorter distance journeys many use XC / TPE etc that offer cheaper fares for such journeys.

Yes, I was talking of London centric IC trains, on the ECML in particular, which is what these things are actually operating on, and I was writing, as you'll see, from 42 years experience, the last 30 of which on InterCity and all it's ECML successor's.

There's been many a time, at a station stop wanting to go and use the toilet, it's been impossible to get through the van for luggage. Do you really want all that luggage piled up in the coaches, or rather see the passengers reverting to air or motorway travel?

[Ken.W]

23 hours ago, APOLLO said:

I wonder how the Mk 3's in the HST fared ?

 

From what I heard, and from the same source as on the 800;

 

The set's thought to be basically undamaged, and in negotiation with the ROSCO, is awaiting a full examination if it's wanted for further use elsewhere.

The rear power car needs a replacement cab, a relatively straight forward job. Otherwise again relatively undamaged and awaiting a decision on whether it's wanted elsewhere.

It was said to be destined for the MML, so I'd presume was one of the one's in better overall condition otherwise.

[Hobby]

Ok Ken you know better than those of us who currently work long distance ic trains. Times have changed especially over the last decade or so. What happened even 20 years ago is a lot different to now. At certain times of the week luggage is an issue but for most of the time we need seats even more. Times change.

[Titan]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

Ok Ken you know better than those of us who currently work long distance ic trains. Times have changed especially over the last decade or so. What happened even 20 years ago is a lot different to now. At certain times of the week luggage is an issue but for most of the time we need seats even more. Times change.

 

You do realise that Ken currently works long distance ic trains too, don't you? Or at least he did until a few weeks ago...

Edited December 6, 2019 by Titan

[Hobby]

If he does as a Guard then his experiences are very different to my own (his "location in the cab" would indicate he was a driver?), I've worked XC for the last 20 years and have seen them go from being quite quiet with mainly long distance passengers to very busy with short/medium distance commuters and that includes the section of ECML from Donny/Leeds to Newcastle.

 

The  more stops a train has the larger share of revenue the TOC gets which encourages them to want to stop as many stations as possible to increase revenue. That has lead for new trains to prioritise seating over luggage space, for better or worse (worse usually!). There are times when it's busy with luggage, our boat trains, end of Uni terms and start/finish of holiday periods. But I recon we carry much more short/medium (i.e. up to 2 hour) commuters than we ever did in the past so a comparison with 20 or 30 years ago isn't relevant for modern traffic flows unless the TOC makes a train limited stop which are not that common (though LNER  and WCML do still have some), There are some flows where "holiday" traffic is more common I agree, but the modern inter city train passenger is a very different beast to what it used to be even a decade or two back. 

[Titan]

37 minutes ago, Hobby said:

If he does as a Guard 

 

So now you are implying a guard is the only staff member able to judge how much luggage is on a train, and all others are blind to it?

 

Or are you just attempting to invalidate what he is saying just because you don't agree with it?

[Ken.W]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

Ok Ken you know better than those of us who currently work long distance ic trains. Times have changed especially over the last decade or so. What happened even 20 years ago is a lot different to now. At certain times of the week luggage is an issue but for most of the time we need seats even more. Times change.

 

Not only have I worked long distance IC trains for, as said earlier, the past 30 years, this was on the trains which are actually being discussed here, so yes I do know something about them. And I'm not talking of 20 years ago either, what I was talking about with the luggage check-in's what's still been happening while we still have the HST / Mk4 sets!

Also, as I said previously, many passengers on shorter journeys on the northern section do use XC / TPE, so yes, they are on XC trains, the problem with them being as they run half size trains there isn't room for  either passengers or luggage, and I know many who wouldn't even consider XC for any sort of long journey.

 

As for more stops and few limited stop trains, I'd suggest looking at an LNER timetable before quoting  that to me. As I said, the London - Edinburgh service is mostly half-hourly through the day, and it is as far as Newcastle throughout the day. The Hourly service in this is, from London, generally first stop York - a two hour run, then just Darlington, Newcastle, and sometimes Berwick to Edinburgh, a four and half hour journey, so not mostly for short journeys, and passengers traveling that far do tend to need to take luggage. And as I said previously, the fares encourage many making shorter journeys north of York to use other services.

 

So, back to my earlier question about all the luggage that is carried in the vans on ECML trains

Do you really want all that luggage piled up in the coaches, or would you rather see the passengers reverting to air or motorway travel?

 

Just because that's the modern way doesn't mean it's automatically better as some seem to think. Yes the trains need room for the passengers, but those passengers also need room for the luggage they need to take, or are they carrying it for fun? And when they find they can't take their luggage with them on the train, will they just go without it? No, they'll go by some other way instead where they can.

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

Not on East Coast, and yes London - Edinburgh, and beyond, would be more like the Devon/Cornwall services than London - Bristol. Though the London - Yorkshire services may be more like the Bristols, the sets on those aren't on separate diagrams but work cyclic diagrams covering main ECML services too, often necessary for platform availability / turn-round times at KX.

Yes that's the way the DaFT wanted to go if you prefer a railway run by them, the TOC however had to take what they were given!

And yes it's long distance travelers that lose out, or more likely, will go by air / motorway when they find they can't take their luggage on the train. This the sort of railway you want?
 

 

Its not a question of whether I want it or not - its what the DfT have evidently decided suits them.

 

As with most decisions made by politicians and their mandarins, they will only change tack if they think they will be booted out of office - and to be quite honest with everything else that has gone on over the past 5 - 10 years (from picking a massive bunfight with the RMT to the whole Brexit saga), its pretty clear that the intricacies of seat / luggage provision on long distance trains are not the sort of things that mater come election time.

 

Hence the DfT are not going to take any notice... and in fact probably secretly welcome more car and air travel  (more fuel duty + airline passenger duty + more vat paid yet minimal expenditure as everything bar the road infrastructure does not require any 'subsidy').

[Ken.W]

Phil,

 

Yeah well there's a lot in what you say there, just your previous post seemed to justify that position, and did include the TOC where it was a case for them of take what we're giving you.

And the ECML does still need proper provision for long distance travel

[jamie92208]

I was at Kings Cross last week and was quite surprised to see how many passengers were queing to retrieve luggage from the DVT of a recently arrived Mk4 set.

 

On another tack, I see that IET's are to be built to replace the Voyagers on the WCML services. I winder whether someone may come to regret that order in due course.

 

Jamie

[MrJack47790]

The IET's will have more seats in booth 5 and 7 car formats.

[Hobby]

9 hours ago, Ken.W said:

And the ECML does still need proper provision for long distance travel

 

We all need that, not just ECML. I see that we are unlikely to agree on this subject and whilst I agree with you with provision for limited stop long distance IC services they are being overtaken more and more by long distance all stops services which encourage a very different type of passenger. Not to mention that today's passenger tends to like to keep their baggage near them, I am sure there are some that don't but they are not the majority from my experience. I hope that EC can hold on to the limited stop trains but I suspect their days are numbered. Anyhow rather than create even more thread drift I feel that it's better we agree to differ. I have plenty of sympathy for what you describe, believe me, but in my world inside the trains I can see we need a different type of IC train for today's passengers, a sort of high speed, maximum seat train which seems to be what they are building these days, for better or for worse... Enjoy your retirement, I am hoping to join you in the next few years if that lot in Westminster don't ruin things completely!

 

 

On a similar vein I see we are now on page 14 and the facts as we know them haven't changed very much from what we knew on page 3 other than the "railway whispers"  going to town so I am going to press the "Ignore Topic" button, but I am still very interested in what actually happened and what the fall out will be, especially for all those new trains, so can someone PM me when the official report is released please and posted up here! Ta!!

Edited December 7, 2019 by Hobby

[JeffP]

Ken W said:

Really?? I can assure you that they DO work as used on East Coast services!

 

At busy times like holiday periods, bank holidays, etc, a luggage check in service is operated at Kings X and Edinburgh.

Large luggage for the destination station are taken and checked in, given a tag label, as passengers enter the platform, and stowed in the van.

The luggage is in a locked van during the journey, not in an open rack at the coach ends next to the exit door (handily placed for the luggage thieves) - with large items you don't 'have them with you' at your seat even if they are in the coach with you, unless of course you're one of those who block the isle with them.

At destination the vans unloaded, plenty of time there, and passengers reclaim their luggage with their tags.

 

I don't doubt this for a minute, but what of the person who has lots of luggage who wants to alight at, say, Newcastle on a down train, or at, say, York, on an up train? How much time do they have to get off and retrieve luggage from a van? Is it even possible?

[iands]

8 minutes ago, JeffP said:

Ken W said:

 

 

I don't doubt this for a minute, but what of the person who has lots of luggage who wants to alight at, say, Newcastle on a down train, or at, say, York, on an up train? How much time do they have to get off and retrieve luggage from a van? Is it even possible?

I know of occurrences in the past where the guard has instructed passengers leaving luggage, bikes, etc, in the 'van' that on the approach to York to make their to the van and knock on the door at the end of coach A on an HST in order to get to their luggage/bike etc early, so that they can exit the train soonest and keep dwell time to a minimum. I don't know if that still happens. 

[Reorte]

Just an aside on the luggage issue, I did think something had gone rather wrong several years back when I saw a sign asking people to try to avoid taking luggage - on a Manchester Airport service. Surely you should expect luggage on a train going to or from an airport?

 

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

From what I heard, and from the same source as on the 800;

 

The set's thought to be basically undamaged, and in negotiation with the ROSCO, is awaiting a full examination if it's wanted for further use elsewhere.

The rear power car needs a replacement cab, a relatively straight forward job. Otherwise again relatively undamaged and awaiting a decision on whether it's wanted elsewhere.

It was said to be destined for the MML, so I'd presume was one of the one's in better overall condition otherwise.

The only way anyone will know what the situation with the HST is once the coaches have been lifted because minor collision damage on HST vehicles is most likely to occur where it can only be seen with the vehicle lifted.  It might well look lovely before a lift but not so clever once it's up in the air and able to be properly examined. And teh collison speed is well within the old BR range for lifting where stock was  (or should have been) lifted with a head-on impact speed of c.5mph or greater.  

[Oldddudders]

5 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The only way anyone will know what the situation with the HST is once the coaches have been lifted because minor collision damage on HST vehicles is most likely to occur where it can only be seen with the vehicle lifted.  It might well look lovely before a lift but not so clever once it's up in the air and able to be properly examined. And teh collison speed is well within the old BR range for lifting where stock was  (or should have been) lifted with a head-on impact speed of c.5mph or greater.  

I think we used to talk about examining centre-castings, whatever they are, in the wake of a collision. 

[Ian Hargrave]

9 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

I was at Kings Cross last week and was quite surprised to see how many passengers were queing to retrieve luggage from the DVT of a recently arrived Mk4 set.

 

On another tack, I see that IET's are to be built to replace the Voyagers on the WCML services. I winder whether someone may come to regret that order in due course.

 

Jamie

 
Lack of proper,secure luggage space is ,speaking personally,a deterrent to rail travel.Voyagers are totally inadequate in this respect.If newly constructed IET’s can be designed with consideration for the needs of the long distance travellers in taking adequate baggage with them,this will be a big improvement. I am not holding my breath.

  We have just completed a return Transatlantic flight from Manchester with,coincidentally,Virgin. Manchester is fortunate in having an on site rail link but was of no use because of this very difficulty . Travelling light was not an option.Hence the use of car.overnight pre flight hotel with parking,7:00am return after overnight flight,scrape ice offf car then down the M6 on two hours sleep.Not ideal .

 

[keefer]

"I think we used to talk about examining centre-castings, whatever they are, in the wake of a collision."

Sounds like the bogie post/mount on the bolster? - designed  to allow smooth rotational movement  but probably liable to damage/misalignment if subject to excessive longitudinal forces.

Possibly there might be damage to the bearing surfaces as well, which could affect the rotational handling of the bogie.

Presumably the couplers/shanks/draft boxes might need a once-over too.

 

Edited December 7, 2019 by keefer

[Oldddudders]

As an irrelevant aside, I must admit to some puzzlement that another member seemed slightly unsure of Ken W's role on the railway. His avatar shows an ASLEF badge with 40 years, and he notes the dates of his driving career there as well - which I make 42 years. To the best of my knowledge, ASLEF membership is only open to footplate staff, and at the time Ken must have joined access to footplate jobs was highly restrictive - I think you needed to be in the footplate line of promotion by age 18, or maybe even less, otherwise you were not allowed to join. 

 

These days drivers are a scarce resource, and the age limit for joining is a thing of the past. Not every boy now grows up wanting to be an engine driver, apparently. Times change. 

[dvdlcs]

As a vaguely relevant parallel, I don't know the details but I seem to recall that 317301 was damaged in a shunting incident at Cricklewood and one of the four coaches was written off before the set had entered revenue service.

 

Presumably as the remainder of the order was still being built an additional car of that type was added to the order and was given the same number as the condemned coach. I believe it was 77048 - why do details like that stick in my head? - and I can recall the listing in my 1985 Platform 5 showing that unit stored unserviceable with a missing driving (trailer?) coach.

[Ken.W]

On 07/12/2019 at 11:02, JeffP said:

Ken W said:

 

 

I don't doubt this for a minute, but what of the person who has lots of luggage who wants to alight at, say, Newcastle on a down train, or at, say, York, on an up train? How much time do they have to get off and retrieve luggage from a van? Is it even possible?

 

The luggage check in service when operating is only for originating through to destination stations, and also Edinburgh when it's an intermediate stop - through trains there usually have a 10 - 15 minute stop, and station staff unload the luggage.

For passengers for other intermediate stations, there's more space left in the in coach racks for them with through passengers luggage being in the van.

 

At other times, when large luggage, bikes etc are carried in the van, yes the passengers will usually be advised to make their way towards the van before the station. Also with bikes, and possibly other items, the destination station will be wired ahead so staff can be in position to assist.

 

That this is so well used, and Jamie's observation above, illustrates a high level of long distance travel on the ECML.

The ECML does after all have London at one end, Edinburgh the other, and York right in the middle - three of the country's major tourist attractions, and some services go on to Inverness / Aberdeen serving the Highlands and also at the latter riggers going on / off shore for weeks at a time. Then there's the major conurbations of Tyneside / Teesside at around 3 hours from London so significant weekly commuting (my earlier post regarding the Sunday afternoon peak), as well as other major citys and towns on route, so yes it does continue to have significant levels of long distance travel with passengers who tend to need luggage.

Also, they're promising faster, not slower, journey times with Azuma, so that's not putting lots more stops in.

On the other hand XC with their inadequately short trains and frequent stops are a sick jock as far as long distance travel is concerned, and I know of very few who would even consider using them for any sort of long distance journey, especially with luggage.

 

As a last word on the subject, going to the Peterborough show on Saturday I went into Smith's and got the latest RAIL for something to read on the way;

There on page 17, an article titled;

More luggage space to be added to LNER Azumas

Edited December 9, 2019 by Ken.W

[Ken.W]

On 07/12/2019 at 18:40, Oldddudders said:

As an irrelevant aside, I must admit to some puzzlement that another member seemed slightly unsure of Ken W's role on the railway. His avatar shows an ASLEF badge with 40 years, and he notes the dates of his driving career there as well - which I make 42 years. To the best of my knowledge, ASLEF membership is only open to footplate staff, and at the time Ken must have joined access to footplate jobs was highly restrictive - I think you needed to be in the footplate line of promotion by age 18, or maybe even less, otherwise you were not allowed to join. 

 

These days drivers are a scarce resource, and the age limit for joining is a thing of the past. Not every boy now grows up wanting to be an engine driver, apparently. Times change. 

 

Hi Ian, and thanks.

That's right, I spent 42 years, and a month, in fact my entire railway career, in the footplate line of promotion. At the time of my joining it was still a very strict line too, no transfer in from other grades, not even guards, you started as 'Traction Trainee' (training as a 'secondman') and worked up on seniority, which was on footplate, not total railway, service.

18 was the minimum age for starting as Traction Trainee, as this was the legal minimum for nightshift working at the time. I actually somehow got in slightly early, but was 18 by the time I started working as secondman. The maximum age for Traction Trainee was 23, after that, too late, even  for staff in other grades.

For driving the minimum age was (and is) 21. As a rolling program of MP12 driver's courses operated I did the MP12 as soon as there was a course I'd be old enough to pass by the end of (quite common), so passed for driving  June '81 to become Relief Driver - basically still secondman but passed for driving and did so on a daily as required basis as 'Higher Grade Duty'.

Made a Driver Feb '86, onto the Spare Link, which covered anything, then with Sectorisation in May '90 onto InterCity and then through all it's successors on the ECML since.

Decided it was time to take my retirement in October.

 

How times have changed! These days even on LNER, which would have been 'top link' when I  joined, there's Drivers who've joined as new starters to the railway.

[Bucoops]

Well this doesn't read well at all...

 

https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-13-2020-collision-and-derailment-at-neville-hill?fbclid=IwAR2XX0N4ip7Z9_DH0wTIRP28qgAYd0u6mTqh28GTAD9wM8KJQfY9vVrxwWw

[SHMD]

..where's me popcorn!

 

 

Kev.