LNER empty trains collided, service disruptions expected

[ngtrains.com]

8 minutes ago, russ p said:

The mk3 coach and its derivatives are probably one of the safest passenger vehicles in the world apparently its strength is the way in which panels are joined 

Was told a few years ago that this process was patented by BREL so when metcamm built the mk4s and night stock they reverted to the mk2 design. 

 

Not quite right.

In a Mk3 the ribs that make up the strength of shell are top hat section from top to bottom and with the curve of the tumblehome in them. Then there are horizontal members which are a shallower but wider top hat section. The clever bit is that the ribs are shaped to go around the horizontal member. The result is that both the ribs and the horizontals remain one continuous length with no joins. I can't recall if they are welded to each other where they cross. Both were quite complex shapes and pressings for which costly tooling would have been made.  The sides, roof and underframe were made seperately in jigs and brought together. The underframe was set up hogged with the middle significantly higher than the ends, all the bits welded on and then the middle support removed (might have been they lifted it out of the jig and on to accomodation bogies). With the weight supported at the ends they `sagged' to level and that stressed the bodyshell increasing its strength.

 

The Mk4 has similar ribs and horizontals but they aren't continuous being cut and welded where they meet.

 

I worked at Litchurch Lane from 1977 to middway through the 442's being built and BREL wasnt allowed to bid for the Mk4's as the BRB wanted a load of guarantees and penalties on the build and to give the work to BREL would have been effectively being the guarantor and customer. Ironically BREL ended up building a load of the Mk4 as a subcontract to Met Camm who had the quarantees but not the capacity. Same reason the Mk4 ended up with SIG bogies instead of BREL T4's.  I don't know if the method was patented by BREL, sounds unlikely really, its more likely the Mk4's were being built down to a price and cut and weld is easier and cheaper than investing in expensive press tools.  Also BREL Litchurch Lane had the presses and facilities to make these parts whilst Met Camm was already the assembly shop buying stuff in like all of the builders now.

[admiles]

3 hours ago, russ p said:

At 15mph the 800 isn't going to push an HST very far with its brakes applied. 

Those coaches that are out of line have jumped off and tried to rotate on their drawbars 

If this had been at high speed there is a chance the coaches would have ended up stacking side to side NOT a good outcome 

 

Well there's nothing like a good bit of total speculation fueled by a rather obvious hate for anything not manufactured in the UK. 

 

You don't have the foggest idea about what really happened. Why not just wait until RAIB report huh?

[Bomag]

27 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

Well there's nothing like a good bit of total speculation fueled by a rather obvious hate for anything not manufactured in the UK. 

 

You don't have the foggest idea about what really happened. Why not just wait until RAIB report huh?

 

I know Shildon etc  is in the outer reaches of humanity but the last time I looked County Durham was in the UK . 

 

While not suggesting that russ P does know anything, a simple knowledge of 1980's A level maths/mechanics would conclude that the 800 had a degree of momentum (which the HST does not show) and that dissipating that energy include lateral and vertical displacement of the coach ends. This may be as it is designed to do, it may not. Given some of the recent RIAB reports there is no guarantee that there will be that level detail in it.

 

Given the movement 800's can show over point work, if there had been passengers on it  they may not have noticed at the back! Certainly it could not had made it any less comfy  

[russ p]

43 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

Well there's nothing like a good bit of total speculation fueled by a rather obvious hate for anything not manufactured in the UK. 

 

You don't have the foggest idea about what really happened. Why not just wait until RAIB report huh?

 

 

Someone else who hasn't read this thread properly 

As I stated I do know a bit more about what happened than I can say on here .

I stated the facts of how it happened but you obviously chose not to read it .

I find accusation of not liking things not made in the uk insulting 

[APOLLO]

Well I won't be going for a sh1t on an 800 at more than 20mph !!!!!!

 

Brit15

[Hobby]

Deleted 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Hobby

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, admiles said:

 

Well there's nothing like a good bit of total speculation fueled by a rather obvious hate for anything not manufactured in the UK. 

 

You don't have the foggest idea about what really happened. Why not just wait until RAIB report huh?

 

Perhaps you need to remind yourself that many RMweb members are actually employed in various parts of the railway industry.

 

Many of us might therefore have distinct ‘insider knowledge’ - which should not be shared publicly as it could very easily lead to disciplinary action being taken by the employer.

 

Russ P is one such member and his comments relating to this incident should not be dismissed as ‘total (or even partial) speculation’

 

When the RAIB report is eventually published, I have no doubt it will contain things which Russ could have revealed on here - but quite correctly won’t.

[Hobby]

I accept that Phil. But surely it would be best for all of us if we just waited. I have to work trains which run alongside these trains and he is not exactly filling me with confidence that we won't end up in "conflict" with them. If they are as bad as he says why are they still running? 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Hobby

[runs as required]

A question that presumably we can legitimately ask those in the know:  

What kind of kit is in the cabs at either end of an 800 that can deliver post incident data ? Hopefully  some kind of black box that is more sophisticated than a car dash camera.

dh

[russ p]

There is a data recorder and forward facing camera 

 

 

[Zomboid]

OTMR is a requirement for running on the main line these days, and that'll be pretty close to a black box. Cab cameras are pretty widely used as well, but I couldn't say whether there's one on that unit (and maybe it won't tell anyone much if it happened in the dark).

Edited November 15, 2019 by Zomboid

[F-UnitMad]

2 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Well I won't be going for a sh1t on an 800 at more than 20mph !!!!!!

 

Brit15

You will if it crashes, whatever the speed....

[keefer]

I don't really know anything about the new units - what kind of inter-car couplings do they have? Fixed bars, Dellners or something else? Are the gangways part of the buffing gear (like Pullman gangways) or just gangways (like the BS/DMU type)?

[russ p]

24 minutes ago, keefer said:

I don't really know anything about the new units - what kind of inter-car couplings do they have? Fixed bars, Dellners or something else? Are the gangways part of the buffing gear (like Pullman gangways) or just gangways (like the BS/DMU type)?

 

They are fixed drawbars with separate gangways, modern stuff doesn't seem to use the Pullman style gangway arrangement anymore which helps keep the train in line. Mk4s have dowels on their gangways 

[Mallard60022]

800s were not 'manufactured' in the UK, they were assembled here from kits of parts as far as I am aware, apart from one Unit was it; can't quite remember the article I read in a rail mag? This particular description has been argued in the past and elsewhere. Manufactured? Built? Assembled? Glued? Soldered? Who cares anyway? 

It is also disappointing that this thread has almost fallen into a slanging match as so many do. Most of the info though is quite interesting for us that know bu##er all about technical stuff so thanks.

I too will not be taking a #### in a Zoomer , moving or Stationary and my advice to anyone that has not yet had to, don't try standing and peeing (especially if you don't have a Pe#is) unless you have done a lot of sailing on Oceans.

Ar$£ 

[iands]

59 minutes ago, keefer said:

I don't really know anything about the new units - what kind of inter-car couplings do they have? Fixed bars, Dellners or something else? Are the gangways part of the buffing gear (like Pullman gangways) or just gangways (like the BS/DMU type)?

These two photos show the inter-car coupling arrangement and gangways. Taken on a visit earlier this year to the Hitachi factory at Heighington.

 

 

[russ p]

That looks very light duty,  certainly nothing like a buckeye or a tightlock or even a freighliner style bar coupler used on units 

[F-UnitMad]

32 minutes ago, russ p said:

That looks very light duty,  certainly nothing like a buckeye or a tightlock or even a freighliner style bar coupler used on units 

Or a tension lock...

 

 

Sprints for exit.... 

[Mallard60022]

Thought you said Sprinters for Brexit then.....adjusted me specs just in time though.

Ar$£

[APOLLO]

Is that the bog outlet pipe ?

 

Brit15

[F-UnitMad]

21 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Is that the bog outlet pipe ?

 

Brit15

Thought you didn't need to know..??  

 

5 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Well I won't be going for a sh1t on an 800 at more than 20mph !!!!!!

 

Brit15

 

 

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, russ p said:

That looks very light duty,  certainly nothing like a buckeye or a tightlock or even a freighliner style bar coupler used on units 

 

Are you (or indeed any other forum members) able to get some pictures of said tightlock (as used mid-unit rather than the outer ends) / freightliner bar couplers for us to have a look at?

 

Anyone know what arrangement is fitted to the 455 fleet? (yes I know they don't run at Azuma speeds)  https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/moving-train-breaks-in-half-sparking-evening-of-rush-hour-misery-for-commuters-a3085581.html

Edited November 16, 2019 by phil-b259

[russ p]

I'm pretty sure the 455 fleet is the freighliner bar coupler, I'm long term sick at the moment phil so can't get any pictures until the new year 

The thing with the coupling systems you mention  there is strong support to stop a vehicle  rotating on the coupling. 

You show a divided 455 that may be down to bolts not being checked for torque on an exam

[phil-b259]

2 minutes ago, russ p said:

I'm pretty sure the 455 fleet is the freighliner bar coupler, I'm long term sick at the moment phil so can't get any pictures until the new year 

The thing with the coupling systems you mention  there is strong support to stop a vehicle  rotating on the coupling. 

You show a divided 455 that may be down to bolts not being checked for torque on an exam

 

No worries - hope your health situation improves over the next few months.

 

Mind you, as a general observation it would still be interesting to see pics of the different coupling systems used within units these days (as per iands shots of the class 800 vehicles).

 

If have a feeling that the 455 incident may have been down to said bolt sheering off rather than not being tight enough but haven't been able to find much in the way of details on the internet so far.

 

 

[Ken.W]

4 hours ago, keefer said:

I don't really know anything about the new units - what kind of inter-car couplings do they have? Fixed bars, Dellners or something else? Are the gangways part of the buffing gear (like Pullman gangways) or just gangways (like the BS/DMU type)?

 

They're a semi-permanent Delner coupler

Not meant to be parted so we don't know any more about them. The gangways seem to be non-standard.

 

7 hours ago, APOLLO said:

Well I won't be going for a sh1t on an 800 at more than 20mph !!!!!!

 

Brit15

 

Well, at least with the Mk4s you only needed to avoid going when passing through a tunnel