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LNER empty trains collided, service disruptions expected


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1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

Sorry, I do not know where to find it but I do remember when the tunnel opened there being statements about the need for a specific vocabulary because a word on one language could be have a different meaning in the other, and several examples were given of words related to safety critical issues. But it is a long time ago and I cannot remember the details. The Stationmaster may know.

Jonathan

My involvement was from the Eurostar viewpoint and the only things there were on-train announcements (as I mentioned above) and the international Rule Book which was basically an English version and a French language version and the two obviously were created to agree with each other.  But otherwise it was simply home network vocabulary from their respective Rule Book and operational documentation and there was suitable cross-border training as well as teh stuff taht went into the International Rule Book (in which Eurotunnel were also a involved as well as the three national railways).

 

But beyond that no more really than language training to a similar level of competence for each country.  Hence when a Eurostar UK Driver came across a deer on the SNCF high speed line and he radioed in a report to the control centre in Lille he didn't know the French word for deer so he described it as 'a horse with a pantograph' - and it was duly understood ;)

 

Train driving was, obviously also a safety critical issue and then some - but SNCF Drivers continued to drive in the French manner on BR/Railtrack while SNCB Drivers continued to drive in the usual Belgian manner (UK Drivers did likewise on classic lines in France and Belgium).  This led to some interesting differences one of which took me a little while to resolve because of the consequences of SNCF Drivers shoving the brake in as soon as they saw a restrictive signal aspect whereas British and Belgian Drivers adjusted speed accordingly ready to stop at the red (and would in any event find a yellow turning to double yellow or green as they neared the signal).  Anyone familiar with the level of traffic on the SR network between London and the tunnel will immediately recognise the consequences of those differences in driving method.

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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

But beyond that no more really than language training to a similar level of competence for each country.  Hence when a Eurostar UK Driver came across a deer on the SNCF high speed line and he radioed in a report to the control centre in Lille he didn't know the French word for deer so he described it as 'a horse with a pantograph' - and it was duly understood 

 

I can just imagine the Lille Controller having hysterics when that registered. Very intelligent reporting though particularly at the speed he was probably travelling

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3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:
4 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Sorry, (nope, no comma required here) Mallard ( ,) but this is the English Language police here. "Their" is plural in a sentence like the one above and should not be used as a substitute for a singular pronoun, regardless of what the thought police may say.

Of course ( , ) in many other languages ( , ) this kind of thing would just not be possible ( , ) as everything is either masculine or feminine as far as grammar is concerned, and no-one gets uptight about it. For example ( , ) in Welsh ( , ) dogs are one gender and cats the other!

Pedant's hat off and return to (relative) sanity.

The discussion above illustrates just what can happen when one does not use words precisely.

And (really?) is precisely why ( , ) when  the Channel Tunnel opened ( , ) was a specif (:pleasantry:) ( , ) clearly defined vocabulary to use for train management.

Anyway, about those two trains - presumably LNER will lose its no claims bonus! Or the question I really want to ask but I don't suppose anyone knows, who will have to pay for the repairs? LNER I assume (?)

Jonathan

 

Thanks for pointing that out; much appreciated, as I had not really remembered that particular piece of correct usage.

'Fraid the punctuation police have been informed mate; my turn to have a poke. :rtfm: :angel:

So if the sexual identity of the driver is unknown, what do you use then? I certainly would use he or she or whatever, if I knew exactly what was appropriate. Would it have to be 'the driver', like  wot I have now dun ? Maybe next time I will just say don't say  complying with the latest inclusive bolleaux as it is verging on hate speech!

ATB

Nowellin Formed

P.S. Any further correction from me will be purely naughtiness :triniti:

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We could all be getting on dangerous ground here, even worse than discussing party politics. I don't use emoticons, never having worked them out, but perhaps I should have made the effort in this case. I hoped that Mallard, even though he supports the wrong team (the one in garter blue rather than Brunswick green) would see my tongue in my cheek.

Which is waffle to avoid answering that I don't know the answer to the question. Using a noun is always safe of course, if sometimes clumsy.

In truth, English is always changing and what is regarded as sloppy/corrupt/incorrect now can be the norm and in the grammar books in 50 years.

Though this is an easy question compared with one I faced in my first job as a copy editor. We used to get  a marked up copy of each issue of the journal from the Editor in Chief. On one occasion he ringed a comma and wrote the question "How did this happen?"

Let's get back to trains. Much safer, even if I know next to nothing compared with most of the erudite contributors to this thread.

Jonathan

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1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

800109 a few weeks ago, with its first claim to fame...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did anyone else notice the similarity between the guy

doing the coupling, without a hard hat, and Andy York?

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What was the problem with the coupling? They seemed to make heavy weather of it?

And I will not doubt be told it is another stupid question but why should either of them need a hard hat? Is someone going to drop a train on them? Or are Inverness seagulls particularly vindictive?

Jonathan

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11 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

What was the problem with the coupling? They seemed to make heavy weather of it?

And I will not doubt be told it is another stupid question but why should either of them need a hard hat? Is someone going to drop a train on them? Or are Inverness seagulls particularly vindictive?

 

Standing up and clobbering your head on buffers or pipes or bits of coupling?

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13 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

What was the problem with the coupling? They seemed to make heavy weather of it?

And I will not doubt be told it is another stupid question but why should either of them need a hard hat? Is someone going to drop a train on them? Or are Inverness seagulls particularly vindictive?

Jonathan

Very sensible to wear a bump cap (but not a safety helmet) when you're doing that sort of work as you are bending down and it's all too easy to straighten up in just the wrong place;  would you like to borrow my tee shirt?  incidentally bump caps are far more effective fior both avoiding banging your head and keeping muck off your hair than a well worn beret or grease top cap.

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On 17/11/2019 at 20:35, corneliuslundie said:

We could all be getting on dangerous ground here, even worse than discussing party politics. I don't use emoticons, never having worked them out, but perhaps I should have made the effort in this case. I hoped that Mallard, even though he supports the wrong team (the one in garter blue rather than Brunswick green) would see my tongue in my cheek.*

Which is waffle to avoid answering that I don't know the answer to the question. Using a noun is always safe of course, if sometimes clumsy.

In truth, English is always changing and what is regarded as sloppy/corrupt/incorrect now can be the norm and in the grammar books in 50 years.

Though this is an easy question compared with one I faced in my first job as a copy editor. We used to get  a marked up copy of each issue of the journal from the Editor in Chief. On one occasion he ringed a comma and wrote the question "How did this happen?"

Let's get back to trains. Much safer, even if I know next to nothing compared with most of the erudite contributors to this thread.

Jonathan

*Yes, observed and thus only having a gentle poke Jonathan.

Just don't go posting on Tony Wright's thread, unless you want to be damaged beyond repair. I just write stuff as I might say it and the comma is more for taking a breath than any sort of grammar ting, as the boys say in de hood.

Yes, talking trains is, as you well know, far more relaxing and such fun, likely to create anger, disgust, cardiac arrest, 'isms' beyond belief and gangs of pedants to come hurtling over the horizon, all rivets blazing!    Thus, let us return to the 'Monties' and how absolutely super they are in every respect. Reliable, comfortable beyond anything that has gone before, beautifully fitted out for all eventualities, smooth riding and evidently the safest item to run on UK rails. They are in fact so wonderful, I am already saving my pocket money so that I can 'preserve one' in a couple of years time when they are withdrawn for scrapping.

Lovely.

Theblue Ducksarse.

Edited by Mallard60022
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ive got to admit, reading the last post, and its quote, I finished it more confused than when I started reading it.


I did recover one useful line in that scrap pile of left over words..

I will ask one of my works colleagues to go forth and “return to the monties” at the right moment...

 

that phrase is definitely good for reuse.

Edited by adb968008
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18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

incidentally bump caps are far more effective fior both avoiding banging your head and keeping muck off your hair .....

Well that was one thing the AY-lookalike shunter doesn't have to worry about... :D

 

 

sprinting for exit.........

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RAIB have issued a press release about their plans to investigate the incident.  Other than describing the outcome, the only thing they say is that the first train was travelling at approx 5 mph and the second approx 14 mph.  So a relative impact speed of approx 9mph.  
Earlier in the thread some assumed that the HST must have been stationary and braked for such damage to be caused.  Apparently this is not the case.

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23 minutes ago, russ p said:

This actually makes its worse 

 

 

Lets wait and see what the findings are before speculating even more than we already have, eh?!! They've said they are looking at the derailments, that should be enough for the time being. :rolleyes:

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18 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Good. The evidence of derailment at what we now believe to be 9 mph closing speed is not encouraging. 

 

What is worrying is that a lot of TPWS grids in terminal platforms are set higher than 9mph if one of these things hit the stops it could be worse than the EPB at Cannon street especially if passengers were stood in gangways 

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1 minute ago, russ p said:

 

What is worrying is that a lot of TPWS grids in terminal platforms are set higher than 9mph if one of these things hit the stops it could be worse than the EPB at Cannon street especially if passengers were stood in gangways 

 

And lets be honest - that (alongside the situation where two 5 car units are scheduled to join up to make a 10 car) is where the biggest risk in terms of a collision lies these days! With TPWS and various defensive driving techniques being practised these days trains ending up in collisions at speed are extremely rare these days.

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Just now, beast66606 said:

 

Except we've just had one ;)

 

Not so - the two trains were on a permissive line - which in signalling terms is much the same as a call on route or no different to the final approaches to a buffer stop - i.e. the train speed has to be slow and the driver have the ability to stop within the distance they can see to be clear.

 

Trains ending up in collision at speed would be the likes of Purley, Ladbroke Grove, etc....

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Just now, phil-b259 said:

 

Not so - the two trains were on a permissive line - which in signalling terms is much the same as a call on route or no different to the final approaches to a buffer stop - i.e. the train speed has to be slow and the driver have the ability to stop within the distance they can see to be clear.

 

Trains ending up in collision at speed would be the likes of Purley, Ladbroke Grove, etc....

 

Indeed - which is why I deleted my post, the sluggish forum meant it took a long time to do anything and it appeared before I could get rid.

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Just now, beast66606 said:

 

Indeed - which is why I deleted my post, the sluggish forum meant it took a long time to do anything and it appeared before I could get rid.

 

No worries - I noted the smiley.

 

But you are sort of right as unlike a call on or buffer stop collision, in this case both trains were moving at the time it occurred.

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