Marshalling of parcels trains

[Marshall5]

From memory and contemporary photos parcels trains in the late 50's/early 60's were a mixture of bogie stock (BG,GUV,Siphon G etc) 6 wh. stock (BGZ, BZ) long w,b. 4wh. stock (CCT,PMV,Fruit D) and 10' w.b XP rated vans.  IIRC there was a thread, some time ago, which stated that there was a particular order of marshalling for such trains but I'm darned if I can find it,  So my questions are:

Was there a particular order?  Specifically on the L.M. region if that makes any difference.

How close to the end of the train did the guard's accomodation have to be?

Some 10' w.b. vans only had instanters not screw couplings so would these be permitted in a mixed formation?

Looking forward to receiving some expert advice.

Cheers,

Ray.

[Aire Head]

From images it seems that the main rules were no stock from the same pre nationalisation railway should be marshalled next to each other and that no stock with matching roof profiles should be marshalled next to each other! 

[Compound2632]

I think this is the thread you had in mind. It's in an odd place, ought to be under "Prototype Questions" or some such:

 

 

[Marshall5]

Thanks Stephen, I'll re-read it.

Cheers,

Ray.

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, Aire Head said:

From images it seems that the main rules were no stock from the same pre nationalisation railway should be marshalled next to each other and that no stock with matching roof profiles should be marshalled next to each other! 

And that if this was unavoidable, the liveries had to be different.

[TheSignalEngineer]

13 hours ago, Marshall5 said:

How close to the end of the train did the guard's accomodation have to be?

Depended on the season. If it was winter a BG would often be next to the loco so the guard could get steam heating unless there was a stove fitted van further down the train. Very often a Goods Brake was marshalled somewhere in the train during winter to provide the guard with a means of heating.

 

13 hours ago, Marshall5 said:

Some 10' w.b. vans only had instanters not screw couplings so would these be permitted in a mixed formation?

XP branded vans could be included in the train but 10' WB stock mostly disappeared when their speed was limited due to derailments in the 1960s. Having said that I have a picture of the Shrewsbury - Paddington parcels in 1964 with a 10' XP van next to the loco. I think it was probably a case that instanters were OK if coupled by the screw couplng of an adjacent vehicle or alternatively if no-one in authority was looking.

 

[jim.snowdon]

11 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

XP branded vans could be included in the train but 10' WB stock mostly disappeared when their speed was limited due to derailments in the 1960s. 

They did turn up from time to time in parcels trains on the South Western main line in the 1970s, but, on the whole, parcels trains in that part of the world were very largely made up from bogie stock and long wheelbase four wheel stock of many descriptions. The ex-SR vans were common, as were ex-LMS BGs downrated by the removal of their gangway connections. Ex-GW and ex-LNE stock was rarer, apart from the Fruit D's and the LNE CCTs.

 

Jim

[Enterprisingwestern]

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

And that if this was unavoidable, the liveries had to be different.

 

Parcel vans , to my recollection, were only ever one colour!

 

Mike.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Parcel vans , to my recollection, were only ever one colour!

 

Mike.

Come on Michael, depending on what parts of the country the vans had travelled through would determine which colour of mud they were.

[Clive Mortimore]

Serious head on. Join Robert Carroll's coaching stock group. Robert has uploaded loads of passenger stock marshalling books from various dates which include parcels train workings. These contain what type of van "should" be in the formation, which ones were coupled on to the train and those detached and where as well as what vans carried parcels for which towns. 

[Flood]

A small problem I have found from certainly the Southern Region Marshalling books is shown below. The 05.30 Didcot shows Vans Q (vans as required) so apart from some specific requirements the actual trains would vary from day to day.

 

[Wickham Green]

Even the 'Vans' attached to the 3 Set L for the 11.00 could be absolutely anything passenger rated ...... perhaps this should have a 'Q' as well.

[The Stationmaster]

Parcels trains were formed in accordance with Marshalling Instructions - they had to be because of the complex van working and supposedly trying to balance the van working.  But as instanced above there were numerous daily and seasonal variations and we further varied them by notice (weekly and daily)  particularly in trains used for Post Office traffic.  and - obviously - in the pre-Christmas period things were very different because of the exponential growth in mail traffic.

 

Vans would generally be specified by type (as shown above), especially for Post Office traffic because of the need to cater for specified/scheduled quantities of mails.  That wasn't quite so rigorous for railway parcels traffic but again there were laid dwn published workings.

 

Van balancing was a perpetual headache as far as the LMR was concerned because for years they had a strange habit of specifying more outwards (from the Region) BGs than were scheduled to work into them.  Thus inter-Regional trains from the LMR often came with Vanfits substitutes for BGs and of course in the late 1960s that meant train speeds had to be reduced which made the train trains late which really upset the Post Office and some of their travelling Inspectors could get very snotty about it because mail missed scheduled connections.  However in somem cases trainloads of mail for shipment would be formed with Vanfits and I can remember we had occasional specials to Avonmouth or the London docks with overseas mail which were formed wholly of Vanfits.

[Fat Controller]

21 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Come on Michael, depending on what parts of the country the vans had travelled through would determine which colour of mud they were.

That wasn't mud, Clive...

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Parcels trains were formed in accordance with Marshalling Instructions - they had to be because of the complex van working and supposedly trying to balance the van working.  But as instanced above there were numerous daily and seasonal variations and we further varied them by notice (weekly and daily)  particularly in trains used for Post Office traffic.  and - obviously - in the pre-Christmas period things were very different because of the exponential growth in mail traffic.

 

Vans would generally be specified by type (as shown above), especially for Post Office traffic because of the need to cater for specified/scheduled quantities of mails.  That wasn't quite so rigorous for railway parcels traffic but again there were laid dwn published workings.

 

Van balancing was a perpetual headache as far as the LMR was concerned because for years they had a strange habit of specifying more outwards (from the Region) BGs than were scheduled to work into them.  Thus inter-Regional trains from the LMR often came with Vanfits substitutes for BGs and of course in the late 1960s that meant train speeds had to be reduced which made the train trains late which really upset the Post Office and some of their travelling Inspectors could get very snotty about it because mail missed scheduled connections.  However in somem cases trainloads of mail for shipment would be formed with Vanfits and I can remember we had occasional specials to Avonmouth or the London docks with overseas mail which were formed wholly of Vanfits.

The mail contract between BR and Royal Mail featured very heavy penalties if either side was responsible for late running.  This meant that the inspectors on both sides were keen to book delays to each other!

Edited November 16, 2019 by The Johnster

[TheSignalEngineer]

Delaying the Postal was a capital offence if you were a railwayman, or just 30 years if a train robber.

[The Johnster]

It was a hanging, drawing, and quartering offence for postal staff to delay trains!

 

Post in transit is legally the property of the Queen, which is why it is called Royal Mail, and stealing it, interfering with it, damaging it, or delaying it could be construed as High Treason (it is alleged/it says here).  Back in the early 70s, a coal train derailed into a farmer's field between Caerleon and Ponthir, and the farmer, hoping to squirrel away as much coal as he could before the mess was cleared up, attempted to obstruct the recovery operation.  He backed down when the breakdown inspector informed him that he was delaying Her Majesty's Mails (a TPO was booked along the route) and that hanging was still in force for such a crime...