Whisky Grain Hoppers

[Fat Controller]

14 hours ago, turbos said:

Here’s a pic of the 3 different 00 gauge whisky blues, left to right Lima, Trix, Triang, Lima.

The Lima is a bit over height, the Triang is even more over height and the Trix is 3.8mmish underscale.

Lima stock always seems to totter, as if wearing mother's high heels. I have known people cut off the axle-guards, then refix them, which has some effect.

[KeithM]

Hi All

Think I am being a bit thick here...!! cannot quiet follow the make that is the best, could someone let me know which one is the closest to scale or at least the one that involves the least amount of work to correct, as I would like to have a rake of them.

Thanks in advance

[The Johnster]

Current production Bachmann is closest to scale and has NEM couplers; this is easily the best option until you consider price, £28 a pop.

 

The alternative is to buy s/h, which is going to be troublesome if you want to build up a rake.  You'll need to select a manufacturer and keep to him, as the models differ slightly in height and detail; the most important thing about a rake is that it is matching, especially in height which will stand out, even if it is not accurate.  The problem is that all the models mentioned have strengths and weaknesses, and none are perfect.

 

Trix (including earlier Bachmann) are to Trix/Lilliput's odd 00/H0 compromise scale of 3.8mm/foot, neither fish nor fowl.  They are otherwise good models and nicely finished, but will need the couplings replacing (suggestion would be Parkside NEM dovetail mounts and NEM couplers).  They will look too small if close to or coupled to other stock.

 

Triang's version is not bad but stands about 2mm, a scale foot, too high (a deliberate design feature to enable Triang stock to negotiate 13" radius curves and turnouts).  The buffers will not match any other stock for height and you may have trouble with them overriding, and they will look too tall with other stock.  Finish is not as good on later Triang/Hornby wagons.

 

Early Triang have a very crude cast metal chassis and open ended axle boxes, and you might see Hornby Dublo versions on 'Bay as well; these are frankly not worth the effort.

 

Lima are probably the closest to scale, well finished, will match buffer height with other stock, and are usually cheap, but are spoiled by an enormous and ugly tension lock coupling which holds the vehicles about 6 scale feet apart.  Cutting this off and replacing it with a Parkside NEM mount is not straightforward as the massive plastic Lima coupling mount must be cut away first.  

 

Some of this is probably not want you want to hear, but I've tried to give you straight so that you have the best information to make your own decisions.  Please don't shoot the messenger, he doesn't like it...

[KeithM]

The Johnster

 

Thank you for your very helpful reply, it looks like if I want a rake of blue's Lima seems to be the one to go for, think I will try and buy one second hand and have a go at removing the couplings and replacing them with the Parkside ones.

 

Thanks Again

[russ p]

Is there two Bachmann models a 4mm and 3.8mm one?

I have quite a lot of the early one but will be weary of getting more if a different scale 

[turbos]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Current production Bachmann is closest to scale and has NEM couplers; this is easily the best option until you consider price, £28 a pop.

 

The alternative is to buy s/h, which is going to be troublesome if you want to build up a rake.  You'll need to select a manufacturer and keep to him, as the models differ slightly in height and detail; the most important thing about a rake is that it is matching, especially in height which will stand out, even if it is not accurate.  The problem is that all the models mentioned have strengths and weaknesses, and none are perfect.

 

Trix (including earlier Bachmann) are to Trix/Lilliput's odd 00/H0 compromise scale of 3.8mm/foot, neither fish nor fowl.  They are otherwise good models and nicely finished, but will need the couplings replacing (suggestion would be Parkside NEM dovetail mounts and NEM couplers).  They will look too small if close to or coupled to other stock.

 

Triang's version is not bad but stands about 2mm, a scale foot, too high (a deliberate design feature to enable Triang stock to negotiate 13" radius curves and turnouts).  The buffers will not match any other stock for height and you may have trouble with them overriding, and they will look too tall with other stock.  Finish is not as good on later Triang/Hornby wagons.

 

Early Triang have a very crude cast metal chassis and open ended axle boxes, and you might see Hornby Dublo versions on 'Bay as well; these are frankly not worth the effort.

 

Lima are probably the closest to scale, well finished, will match buffer height with other stock, and are usually cheap, but are spoiled by an enormous and ugly tension lock coupling which holds the vehicles about 6 scale feet apart.  Cutting this off and replacing it with a Parkside NEM mount is not straightforward as the massive plastic Lima coupling mount must be cut away first.  

 

Some of this is probably not want you want to hear, but I've tried to give you straight so that you have the best information to make your own decisions.  Please don't shoot the messenger, he doesn't like it...

Are you quite sure Bachmann have produced a correct scale new tooled ‘Whisky Blue’?
I’ve only seen their Trix tooled ones so far.

 

Brian.

[turbos]

6 hours ago, KeithM said:

Hi All

Think I am being a bit thick here...!! cannot quiet follow the make that is the best, could someone let me know which one is the closest to scale or at least the one that involves the least amount of work to correct, as I would like to have a rake of them.

Thanks in advance

All three models of the ‘Whisky Blue’ have their flaws. 

Lima: The best of the three, it is the later Powell Dufryn pedestal coil suspension modified/BR version. Suitable for the early 70s onwards, annoyingly it has a solid moulded hoarding which they all had removed by the mid 70s. It’s  a wee bit over height, the couplings are standard Lima ‘Volvo’ size bumpers, the ladder is a bit crude, as is the brake linkage adjuster and the wheels are pizza cutters that will cause problems on code 75 track. Overall a nice wagon that captures the look of these wagons quite well. The red Charringtons, yellow Black & White and pale blue Vat 69 are fictitious colour schemes for these wagons, the Grainflow livery was correct for these wagons although the BRT logo plate was moved to the other end, try and find ones with the more complete under frame discharge rod linkage. They’ve not been produced since Lima closed and as such are the least manufactured but can still be found for a reasonable price.
 

Trix/Lilliput/Bachmann: The first produced model of the ‘Whisky Blue’, it’s the Pressed Steel version, length and height wise it’s underscale as it’s 3.8mm but it’s width is correct at 4mm. The length issue can be useful for layouts where every mm of length matters such as shunting planks, ingleneuks, etc. These look quite diminutive alongside the Lima and Triang/Hornby versions and the vertical stantions are incorrectly spaced but they do run beautifully and have the largest range of different advertising hoardings and also had a myriad of different but correct numbers.  The ladder is very crude and it lacks the brake adjustment linkage on one side and the vacuum pipe on the other but it does have the large vacuum tanks on one end. They do lack any under frame discharge detail but the leaf suspension is crisp. Coupling is the Trix version of the Peco coupling, except for the Bachmann produced that have Bachmann tension locks. The Bachmann Grainflow livery is fictitious for this wagon but the blue, mustard yellow and brown liveries are correct. Still in production by Bachmann, so always plenty around s/h at a range of prices due to the rarity/popularity of certain Whisky brands.

 

Triang/Hornby: The second manufacturer to produce a ‘Whisky Blue’ the earliest one’s were a Trix body on a diecast underframe abomination, avoid. The main production version has been made on and off since the late 60s and is in the thousands manufactured (probably in to five figures), so are numerous and cheap. Over height by a couple of mm, most of this can be got rid of by removing the top (not usually glued) and filing off the vertical section along the tops side and the same amount off the tops end. The vertical stantions are incorrectly spaced like the Trix version but the overall length is OK. The ladder is very crude and it lacks vacuum tanks, side pipe and brake adjuster linkage. The underframe is from a generic Triang-Hornby tank and as such there’s 10s of thousands of them out there so no worries if you destroy it trying to modify it. No underframe discharge detail and the tension lock coupling is held on with a nasty big brass rivet that required an ugly bulge in the bufferbeam where the coupling hook should be, once the river is removed you can file bulge flat and still have plenty of plastic left for a more realistic coupling hook. This version has mostly been made in a prototypical blue with correct numbers.

 

Railtec do most of the decals required for these wagons, Cambridge Custom do the Grainflow decals that the Powell Dufryn / BR (Lima) appeared in when air braked to operate in the Speedlink network, Retrodecals on EBay do a range of Whisky decals for the hoardings and BRT logos. Modelmaster do BRT logo decals.

 

Peco: The only N gauge ‘Whisky Blue’ is the Pressed Steel version with leaf suspension and also has incorrectly space vertical stantions and no underframe discharge detail. Available cheaply as a kit.

Railtec do some decals for this wagon.

Harburn Hobbies are currently selling a limited edition pack of two, if sales are good enough they will do further versions with different whisky adverts.

 

When I get round to doing another detailed 00 ‘Whisky Blue’ I’ll take more photos and put up a ‘how to’ on RMWeb.

 

Slainte,

 

Brian.
 

 

[roythebus]

The Trix/Lilliput version was introduced in about 1968, I was working in Patricks Toys in Fulham when they came in. At the time they were (and still are) excellent models despite the slightly smaller scale. They were made from new like all Trix models with a facility to fit Tri-ang couplings, presumably to try to increase their sales to Triang users. 

 

I recently bought about a dozen from various sellers on an internet auction site for a bout £6 each. They look nice as a bulk train. I'm sure I have a Hornby product which is a bit bigger than the Trix model and is on a plastic underframe.

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, turbos said:

Are you quite sure Bachmann have produced a correct scale new tooled ‘Whisky Blue’?
I’ve only seen their Trix tooled ones so far.

 

Brian.

38-604 catalogue number, NEM couplers and separate brake handle, can't believe even Baccy would charge £27.95 for a 60 yer old tooling.

[Enterprisingwestern]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

38-604 catalogue number, NEM couplers and separate brake handle, can't believe even Baccy would charge £27.95 for a 60 yer old tooling.

 

, but is the body re tooled to consistent 4mm standard and have all the bits missing been added, or is it just a warm up?

Personally, I would assume the latter, as if a manufacturer can sell as many of them as Bachmann have in the "wrong" scale, then why spend more money than they are forced?

 

Having now looked at the wagon mentioned it is a totally different wagon, not the whisky wagon.

 

Mike.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Enterprisingwestern

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

, but is the body re tooled to consistent 4mm standard and have all the bits missing been added, or is it just a warm up?

Personally, I would assume the latter, as if a manufacturer can sell as many of them as Bachmann have in the "wrong" scale, then why spend more money than they are forced?

 

Having now looked at the wagon mentioned it is a totally different wagon, not the whisky wagon.

 

Mike.

It's the relatively recent release of a BR-built Grain van, the prototype of which appeared a decade or more before the 'Blues'.

[Alcanman]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

38-604 catalogue number, NEM couplers and separate brake handle, can't believe even Baccy would charge £27.95 for a 60 yer old tooling.

That's a completely different model, introduced a couple of years ago.  

 

I managed to pick up a couple of old Bachmann whisky hoppers  for less than £20.00 last year.

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Alcanman

[turbos]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

38-604 catalogue number, NEM couplers and separate brake handle, can't believe even Baccy would charge £27.95 for a 60 yer old tooling.

Bachmann 38-604 isn’t a 35 ton BRT Grain ‘Whisky Blue’, it is a 21 ton BR built grain wagon. A very nice wagon (got a few myself) but not what this thread is about.

 

Brian.

[RexAshton]

Thanks to all for the info so far but can anyone confirm or otherwise the authenticity of the yellow 'British Maltsters' livery?

[Fat Controller]

24 minutes ago, RexAshton said:

Thanks to all for the info so far but can anyone confirm or otherwise the authenticity of the yellow 'British Maltsters' livery?

Paul Bartlett's site has a single image showing one in orangey-yellow, with patch painting in black. I do, vaguely, remember seeing these hoppers in something apart from blue, back in the early 1970s.

[turbos]

1 hour ago, RexAshton said:

Thanks to all for the info so far but can anyone confirm or otherwise the authenticity of the yellow 'British Maltsters' livery?

Pictures of ‘yellow’ British Maltsters’ are incredibly rare, I think they were a mustard yellow when new, but they did exist.

[russ p]

Did the blue, yellow and brown vehicles appear in the same train? 

[D9020 Nimbus]

21 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Triang's version is not bad but stands about 2mm, a scale foot, too high (a deliberate design feature to enable Triang stock to negotiate 13" radius curves and turnouts).

At 2mm it's actually a scale 6 inches.

 

Apparently the reason was nothing to do with the radius as such--the buffer height would make no difference that I can see--but to allow the stock to negotiate the slope necessary to have a looped-eight layout on a 6' x 4' board, with overhead catenary. (Mentioned by Iain Rice in an issue of Modelling Railways Illustrated back in the 1990s--I think he was quoting a Triang publication, possibly Triang Railways--The First Ten Years.) It seems that at least some Lima models had this error too.

[Mark Saunders]

1 hour ago, russ p said:

Did the blue, yellow and brown vehicles appear in the same train? 

 

Russ

 

The Brown ones were repaints of the ABM yellow ones and retained the original UIC suspension and leaf springs!

 

Mark

[KeithM]

What a minefield.... !!! big thanks to all who took the time to reply, maybe I will just settle for a couple of wagons and not the "rake" I was hoping for, just need Accurascale to announce they will be doing one in the New Year..... LOL

[russ p]

23 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

Russ

 

The Brown ones were repaints of the ABM yellow ones and retained the original UIC suspension and leaf springs!

 

Mark

 

Cheers Mark

 

So the brown ones were early 70s whereas the yellow ones would have been 60s?

[Mark Saunders]

12 minutes ago, russ p said:

 

Cheers Mark

 

So the brown ones were early 70s whereas the yellow ones would have been 60s?

 

That is the way it seems, this is the link to the one that survived at Delta, Mossend for quite some time!

 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brtgraincovhop/e2cec53f0

 

Mark

[young37215]

I have a rake of the Lima wagons which I painted grey and weathered to use as the Alcan rake that ran between Blyth and Fort William back in the 80's. As others have said, the couplings are the major weakness but they run happily on my WHL layout on Peco code 75 albeit having been re-wheeled with replacements from Hornby. 

 

Given how paintwork fades and weathers over time, I would have thought that any of the lighter blue colours would be an acceptable compromise.

 

 

I also have an original Lima wagon in yellow which I must get around to spraying grey in order in can joint the Alcan rake.

[brian daniels]

Here's a bright sunny picture of a 7mm one I recently finished in NSE Dark Blue, it is darker in real life just the camera thought otherwise!

 

[turbos]

5 hours ago, KeithM said:

What a minefield.... !!! big thanks to all who took the time to reply, maybe I will just settle for a couple of wagons and not the "rake" I was hoping for, just need Accurascale to announce they will be doing one in the New Year..... LOL

They do appear to be a minefield, but they’re not that complicated.

What period do you want them to represent and is there a particular area you model, us RMWebbers will happily help. Or there’s rule 1!

 

Brian.