4mm Carflats (1960s) FVV / FVX

[Staffordshire]

   Hello,

 

     I am looking for help, direction and advice concerning models / kits for Carflats running in the 1960s.

 

    I am hoping to model a train  (4mm)  of a mixture of Cartic 4s and Carflats.   I have the kits for the Cartic 4s from Intercity models.

 

   I need information concerning the correct Carflats for this period of time, I believe they were FVV / FVX wagons ?

 

   Questions,   are there any  kits (metal or plastic) available for this kind of wagon ?

 

                          Are RTR models available, if so do they need any modification to be accurate, I think I have read that Oxford models

            may do a model ?   but also the bogies may need to be modified or changed ??

 

           All information will be gratefully received. 

 

           Many thanks,   Ian

      

 

 

[The Johnster]

Ox do these, and AFAIK the bogies are fine.  They sell packs of mixed cars to load them with which are suitable for Motorail or the final years of the Severn Tunnel Ferry, but workings between the factories and the distribution depots typical loads were of one or two models in a variety of colours. 

 

A train of Cartics and Carflats mixed was not possible in real life as they have incompatible brakes, air for Cartics and vacuum for Carflats, so that’s a matter for your interpretation of Rule 1.  

[Phil Bullock]

Hi Ian

 

First point is that they would not be FVV/FVX in the 60s - those were TOPs codes so would have appeared from 73/4 onwards.

 

As Johnser says Oxford do them - theirs are based on LMS coach chassis and they do have them correctly branded as carflats for your period - bauxite for general traffic http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/55101/76CAR001-Oxford-Rail-Car-Flat-number-B748747-BR-as-built but their blue ones for Motorail traffic are branded as FVV/FVX which causes me an issue for my late 60s/early 70s motorail traffic.

 

Bachmann also have carflats, theirs are based on BR MK1 coach chassis and guess what they have branded both their bauxite and blue versions with TOPs codes! https://www.track-shack.com/acatalog/Bachmann-38-900-OO-Gauge-BR-Mk1-Carflat-Wagon-BR-Bauxite-Bachmann-38-900.html

 

So currently working on transfers with another RMWeb member to backdate them to Carflat branding - which may be of use to you too!

 

Cheers

[Staffordshire]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Ox do these, and AFAIK the bogies are fine.  They sell packs of mixed cars to load them with which are suitable for Motorail or the final years of the Severn Tunnel Ferry, but workings between the factories and the distribution depots typical loads were of one or two models in a variety of colours. 

 

A train of Cartics and Carflats mixed was not possible in real life as they have incompatible brakes, air for Cartics and vacuum for Carflats, so that’s a matter for your interpretation of Rule 1.  

 

    Thanks for that, and sorry to have these basic questions, but just trying to understand.

 

    Could Cartics and a type of Carflats run together in the 70s & 80s. as I have seen a couple of photos which indicate this ?

 

    Were these a different type of carflat wagon ?

 

    Many thanks, Ian

[Fat Controller]

1 minute ago, Staffordshire said:

 

    Thanks for that, and sorry to have these basic questions, but just trying to understand.

 

    Could Cartics and a type of Carflats run together in the 70s & 80s. as I have seen a couple of photos which indicate this ?

 

    Were these a different type of carflat wagon ?

 

    Many thanks, Ian

If you saw Cartic and Carflats together, the Carflats would have been air or dual brakes, most likely on ex-BR chassis. From the 1970s, a programme of fitting air brakes had been carried out on Carflats and other types.

[dagrizz]

Also bear in mind that the Oxford model is of a 57ft chassis, but are branded with a number (B748747) from an LMS 60ft chassis.

 

Graham

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, Staffordshire said:

  Thanks for that, and sorry to have these basic questions, but just trying to understand.

 

No apology needed at all; if you don't ask questions how will you find out?  Recommend Paul Bartlett's website for more research.  The new cars on the wagons were prone to vandal damage (particularly from Longbridge) which is why the flats were eventually phased out in favour of the Cartics, which could be caged in to protect the vulnerable cargo.  The trains ran as Class 4, and the traffic flows were from the manufacturing plants to distribution centres (I remember these on the WR at Didcot and Severn Tunnel Jc) or to ports for export. 

 

 

[Staffordshire]

   Thanks for all the replies, I still have one question ....

 

     In the 60s, were there Carflats being used with both types /lengths of chassis, the LMS 60ft and the BR Mk1 57ft ? 

 

       Or have I just got even more confused ?

 

      Phil Bullock,   it does seem as if i would be interested in these transfers, if and when available ?   Is the CCT ?

 

           Many thanks,

 

                 Ian,  

[Fat Controller]

22 minutes ago, Staffordshire said:

   Thanks for all the replies, I still have one question ....

 

     In the 60s, were there Carflats being used with both types /lengths of chassis, the LMS 60ft and the BR Mk1 57ft ? 

 

       Or have I just got even more confused ?

 

      Phil Bullock,   it does seem as if i would be interested in these transfers, if and when available ?   Is the CCT ?

 

           Many thanks,

 

                 Ian,  

Even more than that: LMS 57', BR 57' and 64', LNER 61', Bulleid 63' (?) GWR 57'

[Phil Bullock]

Looking at transfers for Br 64 ft (Mk1) as modelled by Bachmann

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hello Ian,

 

I don't know what your level of knowledge is so apologies if this is information you already know...but some historical context may be useful.

 

In the late 1950s and early 1960s motor-car ownership was growing rapidly, but the motorway network was in its infancy.  So the railways saw opportunities to transport vehicles to allow motorists to take their cars on holiday with them, and also to transport new cars between factories and ports, or between plants.

 

To do this, they needed suitable wagons, and quickly.  With a fair amount of redundant coaching stock around built by the former Big 4, the obvious solution was to remove the body and fit a simple wooden deck to the chassis with drop-down ramps at each end to allow vehicles to be driven along the train for loading and unloading.  

 

This is why, as Brian says above, there were so many different lengths of Carflat depending on whether the donor vehicles were LMS, LNER, GWR or SR built.  By 1964 the demand for Carflats was such that even relatively new BR Mk1 coaches (built from 1948) were being converted, though this may also have been in part due to a drop in demand for loco-hauled coaching stock too.  

 

I don't believe that any Mk1 derived Carflats were built on dedicated new chassis, but I could be wrong.

 

Incidentally, the holiday service available to the public was branded Motorail from 1966 I believe.

 

Some of the Mk1 carflats were fitted with air-brakes from the early 1970s I believe, and could run from that period with Cartic-4 sets.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

 

[The Johnster]

Drifting a little off topic, the GW and BR(W) ran the Severn Tunnel car ferry between Severn Tunnel Jc and Pilning from I think the 1920s until the M4 (now M48) Severn Bridge opened in 1969.  They used a brake compostite, latterly Hawksworth, and 4 wheeled carflats on 16' wheelbase chassis, but with low rails and a wooden deck much like the later bogie carflats.  Motive power was invariably an STJ large prairie, and in the post steam era a Hymek with bogie carflats and a mk1 BCK.  The bays on the up side at both stations were used for loading and unloading, and you could pay extra for a tarpaulin sheet to protect your vehicle from the gunge in the Tunnel.  My dad was too mean for this and packed a squeegee mop with some water in an old army can.

 

I sometimes wonder why this idea, which was very popular and had to be booked months in advance for peak holiday weekends, was not adopted in other locations. and the Forth, Tay, and Royal Albert bridges come to mind.  If you were heading for the West of England from South Wales or vice versa, it save a 90 mile schlep via Gloucester, about 2 hours in heavy traffic, or a very long queue for the Beachley-Aust river ferry.  Severn Tunnel's association with carflats did not end in 1969, as the former steam shed was used as a distribution depot by Ford, as well as seeing a good bit of export traffic running through to the South Wales ports from all the big manufacturers.  This is handled at Portbury now.

[Waveydavey]

On 16/11/2019 at 14:17, Phil Bullock said:

 

So currently working on transfers with another RMWeb member to backdate them to Carflat branding - which may be of use to you too!

 

 

Hi Phil,

 

Did you get anywhere with the pre-TOPS Carflat decals? I've just bought a Bachmann carflat that needs deTOPSification.

 

Cheers

 

David

[Phil Bullock]

27 minutes ago, Waveydavey said:

 

Hi Phil,

 

Did you get anywhere with the pre-TOPS Carflat decals? I've just bought a Bachmann carflat that needs deTOPSification.

 

Cheers

 

David

Now you are asking! Will check and get back to you

[Staffordshire]

3 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Now you are asking! Will check and get back to you

.... and me please, thanks, Ian 

 

[Phil Bullock]

On 06/10/2021 at 13:19, Waveydavey said:

 

Hi Phil,

 

Did you get anywhere with the pre-TOPS Carflat decals? I've just bought a Bachmann carflat that needs deTOPSification.

 

Cheers

 

David

 

On 06/10/2021 at 17:22, Staffordshire said:

.... and me please, thanks, Ian 

 

Hi both 

 

My source is no longer available…. Sorry.

 

However I see Steve at Railtec is listing them in 7mm …. What are the chances of applying the shrink Ray Steve? @railtec-models …. Know you are busy! 

[railtec-models]

On 09/10/2021 at 16:55, Phil Bullock said:

 

Hi both 

 

My source is no longer available…. Sorry.

 

However I see Steve at Railtec is listing them in 7mm …. What are the chances of applying the shrink Ray Steve? @railtec-models …. Know you are busy! 

 

Yep - I can do that, particularly as the artwork already exists. Hang on...

[Phil Bullock]

You are a star Steve…. Many thanks, will be appreciated! 

[Phil Bullock]

On 06/10/2021 at 13:19, Waveydavey said:

 

Hi Phil,

 

Did you get anywhere with the pre-TOPS Carflat decals? I've just bought a Bachmann carflat that needs deTOPSification.

 

Cheers

 

David

 

On 06/10/2021 at 17:22, Staffordshire said:

.... and me please, thanks, Ian 

 

Being the excellent chap he is Steve @railtec-models has applied the shrink ray … pre TOPs carflat transfers now available, see item no 6460 in 4mm.

 

No connection other than a very happy repeat customer….. cheers Steve!

[roythebus1]

There was a lot of information on the CARTIC 4 units on the "collectable and historic" models group.

 

K's produced a plastic kit for the end wagons as a promotion for British Railways in the mid 1960s. I had a couple of these at the time but no longer have them. We quickly discovered that the prototypes had vacuum brakes by reference to Paul Bartlett's BR wagons pages. Air braking was not the norm on BR until the early 1970s, so later units were built with air brakes.

 

Triang done a reaonable model of the CARTIC, but again only the end wagon. Their bogies were the same as Freightliner bogies and are very accurate models of the bogies.