Can anyone identify the wagons in this Cement(?) train?

[richscylla]

Hi  there, 

 

I was wondering if anyone can identify the wagon types in the train at @2:20 in this video? I'm thinking it's as follows - but certainly things I don't recognise:

Class 37, Class37, Silver Bullet (Does this have a TOPS code), VDA (x3), Silver Bullet, PCA, ????, Silver Bullet, ????, PCA (x4)

Any help would be great. 

Thanks,

 

Rich

 

 

[njee20]

Silver bullets are ICAs. Can’t help on the others. 

[Flood]

I reckon:

 

Class 37, Class37, Silver Bullet, Hbfis VGA (x3), Silver Bullet, Oil TTA?, Slurry TTA, Silver Bullet, ICB, PCA (x4)

 

Hbfis

Similar to: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/germanvan/h25E44A37#h25e44a37

 

Slurry TTA (don't know how long these lasted but certainly something similar)

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/apcmswanscombe/h3AC402B5#h3ac402b5

 

ICB

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/paulbartlettsrailwaywagonphotographs/hbde1cb83#hbde1cb83

Edited November 16, 2019 by Flood

[richscylla]

Thanks Flood! Now I need to see if any of them are available as models/kits/conversion parts!!

[Jim Martin]

Aren't the vans just VGAs? Most ferry vans have truss underframes and handwheel brakes. The ones in the film have fishbelly underframes and look to have a stubby little handbrake lever near the middle of the wagon. To me, that says VGA, as does the architecture of the wagon end immediately below the edge of the central portion of the roof.

 

VGAs were standard BR types (the last BR covered vans, based on continental designs) and are available RTR in OO and N.

 

Jim

 

 

[Fat Controller]

I suspect that it's a Cornwall- Mossend or vice-versa via ADJ. Those cement V-tanks appear to be the very early ones with leaf springs.

[Flood]

1 hour ago, Jim Martin said:

Aren't the vans just VGAs? Most ferry vans have truss underframes and handwheel brakes. The ones in the film have fishbelly underframes and look to have a stubby little handbrake lever near the middle of the wagon. To me, that says VGA, as does the architecture of the wagon end immediately below the edge of the central portion of the roof.

 

VGAs were standard BR types (the last BR covered vans, based on continental designs) and are available RTR in OO and N.

 

Jim

 

 

Good spot. I thought about VGAs but then seemed to convince myself otherwise.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Flood

[Davexoc]

The last 4 are the same or similar to the one after the TTA, another TTA variation, possibly slurry or chemicals, but definitely not a PCA, 'V' or otherwise. Don't know of any PCAs with centrally mounted ladders, and Vs would have 2 filler hatches. PCAs also didn't have buffer over-ride protection, which these appear to have, so I'm leaning towards chemicals of some sort....

[griffgriff]

BTW.... there’s not much ‘cement’ in that train unless it’s bagged in the vans.

 

Griff

[The Pilotman]

This looks very much like a predominately Cornish china clay train. I think the last four wagons are either the china clay slurry TTAs as Flood mentioned above or perhaps TUAs (which had buffer override protection), used for the same traffic. Ahead of them is, I think, a “Crosfield” TCA bogie slurry tanker. Between the second and third ICAs are, in my opinion, a bog standard oil TTA and another slurry TTA/TUA like the final four. So that would make the consist: ICA, VGA x 3, ICA, TTA, slurry TTA or TUA, ICA, TCA, slurry TTA or TUA x 4. It was not uncommon for a train to have these three different types of slurry tanker in the consist, and for wagons of the same type not to be coupled together. Here is a photo from Flickr by Huw Millington of a TUA:

 

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Western Aviator

[richscylla]

Thanks for everyone's feedback! Seems I got a little confused between Cement and China Clay. I know ICA, TTA, VGAs are all available RTR in 00. I just need to look into Slurry TTA/TUA and TCA options to model this train!

[The Johnster]

You can't make concrete out of china clay (not good concrete, anyway) and you can't make pottery (not good pottery, anyway) out of cement...

 

 

[The Pilotman]

18 hours ago, richscylla said:

Thanks for everyone's feedback! Seems I got a little confused between Cement and China Clay. I know ICA, TTA, VGAs are all available RTR in 00. I just need to look into Slurry TTA/TUA and TCA options to model this train!

 

I don’t know what is/was available in OO but as there were only 5 TCAs built, I would imagine an RTR version is very unlikely. Here's a picture by Stuart Riley on Flickr of some (clean) scratch-built wagons that look very good. 

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Western Aviator

[matt-b]

The 3 VGAs heading down to Cornwall to Friztgerald lighting company maybe?

 

[Fat Controller]

12 hours ago, The Johnster said:

You can't make concrete out of china clay (not good concrete, anyway) and you can't make pottery (not good pottery, anyway) out of cement...

 

 

Though most (possibly all) the china clay in that train would never see the inside of a pot-bank; it's destined to be filler on paper and other uses.

Regarding drawings for 'oddball' slurry tanks; Len Vass did some articles in Railway Modeller, about a lifetime ago.

[ElectroSoldier]

Why is it all split up like that?
I mean why are all the china clay wagons not together?

[hmrspaul]

This is the TCA https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/crosfieldchinaclaytca

 

Paul

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Though most (possibly all) the china clay in that train would never see the inside of a pot-bank; it's destined to be filler on paper and other uses.

Regarding drawings for 'oddball' slurry tanks; Len Vass did some articles in Railway Modeller, about a lifetime ago.

Agreed; the uses of china clay are legion, including the bulk of the contents of your toothpaste tube...

 

China clay or kaolinite forms from weathered silica rich rocks, and in the UK is associated with granite outcrops.  Cement is finely powdered crushed limestone, and cement works are usually found in areas where there are limestone quarries.

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, ElectroSoldier said:

Why is it all split up like that?
I mean why are all the china clay wagons not together?

Different grades and types of china clay to and from different locations; the idea being to pick up and set down traffic with the least number of moves. The train will make traffic stops at (as a minimum) ADJ, Warrington, Carlisle and Mossend.

 

[Fat Controller]

2 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Agreed; the uses of china clay are legion, including the bulk of the contents of your toothpaste tube...

 

China clay or kaolinite forms from weathered silica rich rocks, and in the UK is associated with granite outcrops.  Cement is finely powdered crushed limestone, and cement works are usually found in areas where there are limestone quarries.

See Paul Bartlett's photo above ; destined for Crosfield's plant at Warrington this will form the basis of scouring powder (Ajax or Vim)

[Flood]

15 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

See Paul Bartlett's photo above ; destined for Crosfield's plant at Warrington this will form the basis of scouring powder (Ajax or Vim)

They had passed to being on hire to ECC by 1988 so for a video taken in 1998 they were not necessarily destined for a Crossfields plant. They were certainly being used for slurry workings to Port Elphinstone near Inverurie in 1988 but that had closed to rail traffic by 1992.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Flood

[Davexoc]

23 hours ago, Western Aviator said:

This looks very much like a predominately Cornish china clay train. I think the last four wagons are either the china clay slurry TTAs as Flood mentioned above or perhaps TUAs (which had buffer override protection), used for the same traffic. Ahead of them is, I think, a “Crosfield” TCA bogie slurry tanker. Between the second and third ICAs are, in my opinion, a bog standard oil TTA and another slurry TTA/TUA like the final four. So that would make the consist: ICA, VGA x 3, ICA, TTA, slurry TTA or TUA, ICA, TCA, slurry TTA or TUA x 4. It was not uncommon for a train to have these three different types of slurry tanker in the consist, and for wagons of the same type not to be coupled together. Here is a photo from Flickr by Huw Millington of a TUA:

 

 

 

Not TUAs as those in the video have leaf springs. More likely repurposed ex-Caustic Soda tanks, TTA to diagram TT072F. Like these from 53A...

 

[The Pilotman]

I think you’re right, Dave; the suspension gives it away. Coincidentally, I recently came across this picture of both types together:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lickeybanker/11295956195/in/photolist-fj5y7B-idbJer-iYq76c-iYq75R

 

[KeithMacdonald]

On 16/11/2019 at 23:06, The Johnster said:

You can't make concrete out of china clay (not good concrete, anyway) and you can't make pottery (not good pottery, anyway) out of cement...

 

Agreed about cement pottery. At least, my wife wouldn't want it on the table. But funnily enough, just been reading an article on geopolymer concretes that do include kaolin (china clay)

 

https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2019/11/07/diy-pyramid-blocks-tiawanaku-stone-geopolymer/

 

This is the same kind of geopolymer concrete that at least some of the blocks in the Egyptian pyramids are said to be made of (with a quite convincing case). If anyone is interested in the recipe, here's some they prepared earlier:

 

https://www.geopolymer.org/archaeology/pyramids/pyramids-3-the-formula-the-invention-of-stone/

 

 

[The Johnster]

Whatever they made the pyramids out of, it was a **** of a lot of bother to go to just to sharpen a razor blade...

 

Somebody in Egypt at about that time, a person now long forgotten but one of my greatest heroes, invented beer, and the gangs who built the pointy things were partially paid in it.  Whoever this hero was, kudos to him/her.