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GWRSwindon

Ideas for a GCR Layout

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I've started quite a number of threads here, covering the CLC, the LNWR Varsity Line, the DN&SR, and the North Staffordshire Railway. I tried pretty hard to contrive a way for the GCR to put in an appearance on the Varsity Line and the NSR, so I've finally decided to turn my focus to the GCR.

 

Inspired on the one hand by Peter Denny's Buckingham branch and James Harrison's Rufford Red Lion Square, I've started compiling the elements I wanted to include in a GCR layout:

 

- I love the diversity of the Pre-Grouping era companies, and including several of them is quite important for me. I'd want to include the LNWR, GWR, GNR, and the Midland. Including either the GER or the NSR might be nice, but both would probably not be doable. The GN&GE could allow the GE to appear much farther north than would otherwise be possible, so that's a mercy.

 

- A decently-sized engine shed. 

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Both the GNR and LNWR had running rights over the Woodhead route, and for a short time, GER locos took the North Country Continental all the way to Manchester.

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I've got some expectations to live up to then! :lol: (Seriously, thanks for the vote of confidence).  Where on the GCR or within it's sphere of influence are you thinking of modelling?  (LNWR/ NSR/ Midland would be more likely to appear around Manchester than on the London Extension, for instance). 

 

One thought that might be worth considering would be somewhere in Cheshire or Staffordshire- Stafford, for instance, saw the LNWR, GWR, GNR and NSR.  Looking at the map in my reprint of the 1903 GCR timetable it would appear the GCR had running powers there over both the NSR and the GNR.... but I don't recall reading anywhere that they were exercised.  

 

If you're more interested in getting Midland involvement there was a similar arrangement getting the GCR access to Burton.   

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Perhaps a GCR line more directly linking Leeds and Sheffield? Surely there's room for just one more line...

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You need the attempted Welsh Union connecting Swansea and Cardiff to Birkenhead. under the leadership of GCR from its Wrexham foothold. includes all the Welsh lines, connects with the L&NW, the GWR and the Midland, should be enough to be going on with.

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On 17/11/2019 at 02:53, GWRSwindon said:

I've started quite a number of threads here, covering the CLC, the LNWR Varsity Line, the DN&SR, and the North Staffordshire Railway. I tried pretty hard to contrive a way for the GCR to put in an appearance on the Varsity Line and the NSR, so I've finally decided to turn my focus to the GCR.

 

Inspired on the one hand by Peter Denny's Buckingham branch and James Harrison's Rufford Red Lion Square, I've started compiling the elements I wanted to include in a GCR layout:

 

- I love the diversity of the Pre-Grouping era companies, and including several of them is quite important for me. I'd want to include the LNWR, GWR, GNR, and the Midland. Including either the GER or the NSR might be nice, but both would probably not be doable. The GN&GE could allow the GE to appear much farther north than would otherwise be possible, so that's a mercy.

 

- A decently-sized engine shed. 

You could satisfy most of these needs by doing the CLC, particularly the ST&A. Baguley would be good choice

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21 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

Perhaps a GCR line more directly linking Leeds and Sheffield? Surely there's room for just one more line...

I think this might take the form of a line diverging from the GCML at Penistone, proceeding to Dewsbury, then the Morley-Tingley area, and ending at Leeds Central. It appears such a line would be a good bit shorter than the existing North Midland route, as well as being more convenient than the roundabout Manchester and Leeds Railway for Mancunians headed north.

Edited by GWRSwindon
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On 23/11/2019 at 04:43, webbcompound said:

You need the attempted Welsh Union connecting Swansea and Cardiff to Birkenhead. under the leadership of GCR from its Wrexham foothold. includes all the Welsh lines, connects with the L&NW, the GWR and the Midland, should be enough to be going on with.

I'm having trouble finding results for a "Welsh Union Railway," could you please give a bit more detail on what this line was supposed to be?

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North Nottinghamshire saw LD&ECR, MR, GNR, LNWR, GER, GCR in the Edwardian era. As royalty visited The Dukeries stately homes you could imagine a role for the GWR Royal Train. GWR and GCR ran through trains from the SW to the NE with stock of both railways.

 

A cut-off was once proposed between Sheffield and Newark via Ollerton.

Edited by Armchair Modeller
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12 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

I'm having trouble finding results for a "Welsh Union Railway," could you please give a bit more detail on what this line was supposed to be?

Sorry. got the order wrong. Should be Welsh Railways Union. a Watkin scheme that started in 1883 with the Welsh Through Traffic Act, and whose final link was the opening of the Wrexham - Ellesmere line. . the idea was that the Wirral, the Cheshire Lines, the WM&CQR, the Cambrian, The Neath and Brecon, the Brecon and Merthyr,  the Taff Vale, the Barry and the Swansea Vale joint would combine to compete with thw GWR/LNWR joint route from South Wales to  Liverpool and Manchester.  Watkin had effective control of the Wirral, the WM&CQR and the Cheshire Lines, and became chairman of the Neath and Brecon.1558693632_welshunion001(2).jpg.8b3464e97101f9d7fcac4065b6b08d0f.jpg

Edited by webbcompound
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12 hours ago, Armchair Modeller said:

North Nottinghamshire saw LD&ECR, MR, GNR, LNWR, GER, GCR in the Edwardian era. As royalty visited The Dukeries stately homes you could imagine a role for the GWR Royal Train. GWR and GCR ran through trains from the SW to the NE with stock of both railways.

 

A cut-off was once proposed between Sheffield and Newark via Ollerton.

I forgot to add that the M&GN ran passenger trains to Nottingham and the NSR ran goods trains there. So that's 8 companies trains, plus at a few other's coaches. - LYR, GWR various joint stock etc. Nottinghamshire was the centre of the universe as far as railways go, if you exclude greater london ;)

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On 25/11/2019 at 09:14, webbcompound said:

Sorry. got the order wrong. Should be Welsh Railways Union. a Watkin scheme that started in 1883 with the Welsh Through Traffic Act, and whose final link was the opening of the Wrexham - Ellesmere line. . the idea was that the Wirral, the Cheshire Lines, the WM&CQR, the Cambrian, The Neath and Brecon, the Brecon and Merthyr,  the Taff Vale, the Barry and the Swansea Vale joint would combine to compete with thw GWR/LNWR joint route from South Wales to  Liverpool and Manchester.  Watkin had effective control of the Wirral, the WM&CQR and the Cheshire Lines, and became chairman of the Neath and Brecon.1558693632_welshunion001(2).jpg.8b3464e97101f9d7fcac4065b6b08d0f.jpg

Interesting, was this to be an independent company, a joint committee like the CLC, or operated by the GCR?

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Does anyone have any ideas for where a possible Lanky/GCR joint line could be located?

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7 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

Does anyone have any ideas for where a possible Lanky/GCR joint line could be located?

AFAIK there were no lines where the LYR/GCR were the sole owners, but if there were then South Yorkshire would be a favoured location, say around Sheffield and Doncaster with an emphasis on coal.

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Penistone would look to be one station where both companies had access.

As already stated, the S Yorks. coalfield offers opportunities where the Dearn Valley and SYR came together at various collieries.

What the map does not show is where there were running rights and for something completely off-beam, the NER line from Selby to Hull allowed both the GCR and the LYR running rights from Goole to Hull.

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On 26/11/2019 at 16:27, GWRSwindon said:

Interesting, was this to be an independent company, a joint committee like the CLC, or operated by the GCR?

As I understand it, the idea was in the first instance to set up a joint committee to manage through traffic efficiently, leading to a working union of the companies (always a Watkin theme) and possibly eventually an amalgamation, although the last would have presumably needed additional legislation.  The Midland Railway (partner in the CLC) had no particular objection; the LNWR and GWR were opposed on the ground of increased competition, although as was pointed out at the time their respective routes from the North West to South Wales had as muc traffic as they could handle.

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Would the H&BR and GCR Joint Railway be interesting enough to model? 

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Possibly; a cursory look at the wiki article gives the impression it was intended primarily as a freight route (don't quote me on that).  You might struggle for reference material; I can't recall seeing any photographs of the line in any of my GCR books (though it's the sort of subject you'd expect to see in the GCRS's journal, Forward). 

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On 20/01/2020 at 06:15, Tom Burnham said:

As I understand it, the idea was in the first instance to set up a joint committee to manage through traffic efficiently, leading to a working union of the companies (always a Watkin theme) and possibly eventually an amalgamation, although the last would have presumably needed additional legislation.  The Midland Railway (partner in the CLC) had no particular objection; the LNWR and GWR were opposed on the ground of increased competition, although as was pointed out at the time their respective routes from the North West to South Wales had as muc traffic as they could handle.

I take it that a depiction of the WUR could include GCR and Cambrian locos and stock realistically?

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To combine GCR with LYR, consider the various, unbuilt schemes to bridge the Humber and thus break the NER's monopoly on access to Hull (historically, the HBR was built instead). I once schemed a GCR-sponsored line up the valley of the Ancholme to the bridge that met a LYR-sponsored line from Goole, with a junction near Ferriby Sluice. These railways would have had serious freight flows -- much traffic to and from the port of Hull plus some steelworks traffic -- but also long-distance passenger services.

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On 03/02/2020 at 16:52, Guy Rixon said:

To combine GCR with LYR, consider the various, unbuilt schemes to bridge the Humber and thus break the NER's monopoly on access to Hull (historically, the HBR was built instead). I once schemed a GCR-sponsored line up the valley of the Ancholme to the bridge that met a LYR-sponsored line from Goole, with a junction near Ferriby Sluice. These railways would have had serious freight flows -- much traffic to and from the port of Hull plus some steelworks traffic -- but also long-distance passenger services.

That actually sounds like a very interesting concept, with a great deal of operating interest.

 

The Welsh Railways Union also has a good bit of potential, with GCR and Cambrian locos working in gorgeous country.

Edited by GWRSwindon

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Another idea might be depicting the North Warwickshire line and East & West Junction Railway as a GCR line to Birmingham. 

 

The trouble with giving the GCR more mileage is that their locomotive numbering system took care to leave no gaps for fictitious engines to be inserted.

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You don't need fictional locos. If there were additional lines existing locos could run across them. You could also posit a longer life for locos that were in reality replaced with new classes. If their numbers were re-used you could just gice them an "A" suffix

Edited by webbcompound
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4 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

Another idea might be depicting the North Warwickshire line and East & West Junction Railway as a GCR line to Birmingham. 

That was the MSLR’s intention, together with a branch from Brackley to Northampton (land is earmarked on the plans for an extra platform). See the A43 from Brackley to where it crosses the WCML just north of Blisworth Station site for the route. Basically, spur from Brackley to Helmfon on the Northampton and Banbury, take the latter to Blisworth, then a short section down the Nene Valley. 

I personally think Peter Denny got it slightly wrong with siting his layout at Buckingham (although it gave home a lot of freedom) as Northampton Great Central really could have happened, and with added variety from the EWJR.

The Met also had designs on Northampton and Birmingham, which would have transformed it into a major trunk railway. 
It’s all that  Watkin bloke again, isn’t it?

Edited by Regularity
Route added.

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