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gobbler

Airfix class 31, runs for 10 seconds then stops

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Hi all,

 

Not my usual scratch building antics.

 

But, After my 10 year old, run twice, brand new Hornby class 31 fell apart, crumbled and generally disintegrated,  after suffering from the mazac rot problem, I thought I'd get a replacement class 31.  So I took the plunge and got my self an Airfix class 31.  Considering the age of the model, it does look quite good. 

 

So out it comes I put it on my test track and off it went, for about 10 seconds and then came to an abrupt halt.  I left it there for 10 seconds or more, then I flicked the direction  and off it went again, and again after several seconds it stopped again.  So I try reversing it and the same thing happens.

 

Out come several more of my locos and they go up and down quite merrily without suddenly stopping, so I can rule out my controller having a hissy fit.

 

So it must be something to do with the drive unit.......but what??

 

This is where I hope you fellows can step into the breech and give me some direction. 

 

Cheers

 

Scott

Edited by gobbler
Was locks, is now locos.....typo
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First check, body off, apply power directly to the motor brushes. If it runs reliably and continuously when getting power, then it's the pick ups and wiring that need checking to find the loss of continuity. That's where I would start.

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16 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

First check, body off, apply power directly to the motor brushes. If it runs reliably and continuously when getting power, then it's the pick ups and wiring that need checking to find the loss of continuity. That's where I would start.

 

And don't forget to clean the wheels too.

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2 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

What controller are you using?

 A fairly newish Hornby DC controller.

 

Btw the wheels are clean and when i apply the wires directly to the pick ups, same thing happens, no matter what speed the controller is set at it runs for a few seconds,  i then have to wait several more before she'll run again.

 

Frustrating,  you can imagine,  i wonder if there is a capacitor in there thats faulty???

 

Thanks

 

Scott

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2 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

What controller are you using?

Of course, these motors draw a lot of current. A modern small output controller will cut out very quickly. These need a 1 amp continuous controller output. (Easy to forget this factor with can motors drawing 100mA nowadays.)

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1 hour ago, gobbler said:

 A fairly newish Hornby DC controller.

 

Btw the wheels are clean and when i apply the wires directly to the pick ups, same thing happens, no matter what speed the controller is set at it runs for a few seconds,  i then have to wait several more before she'll run again.

 

Frustrating,  you can imagine,  i wonder if there is a capacitor in there thats faulty???

 

Thanks

 

Scott

I agree with where 34C is heading, in that your controller is not up to the job.

 

To test, when your Class 31 stops, take it off the track immediately and put another loco known to be working on the track and turn on the power to perhaps half speed..

If it starts running immediately, then the Class 31 is faulty. If nothing happens then the controller has shut down, due to an overload. If you leave the 2nd loco on the track, with controller still on half setting and wait a few minutes. If it suddenly starts moving, then the controller has reset, thus proving a 'lack of guts' from it.

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3 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Of course, these motors draw a lot of current. A modern small output controller will cut out very quickly. These need a 1 amp continuous controller output. (Easy to forget this factor with can motors drawing 100mA nowadays.)

I had exactly this problem with an Airfix Prairie which I had overhauled including rewiring. Worked perfectly on the test bench, powered by my faithful 50-year-old H&M controller. Put it on my grandson's train set to give it a roundy test run and it stopped after about three yards. Track power dead, unplugged and replugged controller and it ran for three yards before going dead again. Many modern controllers, particularly train set wall plug transformer types, don't have the grunt to run old locos. My Gaugemaster D, (other makes are available), will deal with them quite happily although I haven't tried to switch direction at 100%

:nono:

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Has the Hornby 31 chassis completely disintegrated, or just the outer ends? Either way, I'd look to bodge a replacement chassis (thick plasticard perhaps?) to re-use the Hornby motor and bogies, unless the chassis issues have also knackered the Hornby body?

 

The old Airfix 31 motor bogie, as already noted above, draws a lot of current compared to todays' models and it definitely sounds like your controller is tripping/re-setting. 

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15 minutes ago, CloggyDog said:

Has the Hornby 31 chassis completely disintegrated, or just the outer ends...

Or a step further, the Hornby mechanism with the ends Mazak rotted off, can be neatly wedged into the lightly modified Airfix body (the interior needs the two posts to take the securing screws cut off flush to roof underside, and some light shaving of internal ribs so that it just slides down over the Hornby mechanism block and stays put. A ten minute conversion, few are as easy as this...

 

The benefits are twofold.

The Airfix body actually looks like a Brush type 2 thanks to the properly recessed cab side windows; despite being otherwise less sophisticated than the Hornby body. Its glazing deficiencies can be worked on, the Hornby cab interiors glued inside the Airfix body and so on...

 

The Hornby mechanism performs beautifully, rather than coffee grinding. None of my cheaply acquired Mazak rotted chassis have given up yet, and when they do the mechanism parts can be remounted in a  brass channel underframe, and on they will go...

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Guys, 

 

Thanks oh so much.....the culprit

20191118_171355.jpg.ed93452f6c31f410f948432f25b4c360.jpg

Every other loco runs sweet with this controller

 

So ive been in the loft and dug these relics out (bringing back any memories,  anyone?)

20191118_173213.jpg.c14207a1d0717c4feea6df037fb4fc40.jpg

My airfix class 31 runs smooth with these babies, though i dont have the low speed control id like.

 

Didnt think the controller would be the problem, thanks again.

 

Soooo, any recommendations for a controller with the output i need?

 

Cheers

 

Scott

 

 

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Ah the old R914 controller. I still like these beasts, and use one as a test controller. We had three on our old round the room layout. Worked lovely. Have no-idea where the others are now though...

 

Have a look at the Gaugemaster non feedback ones.... It's the output current you need to look for, about 1amp will be good.

 

Andy G

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4 hours ago, gobbler said:

Guys, 

 

Thanks oh so much.....the culprit

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_11/20191118_171355.jpg.ed93452f6c31f410f948432f25b4c360.jpg

Every other loco runs sweet with this controller

 

So ive been in the loft and dug these relics out (bringing back any memories,  anyone?)

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_11/20191118_173213.jpg.c14207a1d0717c4feea6df037fb4fc40.jpg

My airfix class 31 runs smooth with these babies, though i dont have the low speed control id like.

 

Didnt think the controller would be the problem, thanks again.

 

Soooo, any recommendations for a controller with the output i need?

 

Cheers

 

Scott

 

 

Glad you've got to the bottom of it. Looking at the VA ratings of the other 3, they look like they are pretty close to the line too!

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5 hours ago, gobbler said:

Soooo, any recommendations for a controller with the output i need?

I use a Gaugemaster D for two-train control. Will reliably run two heavy trains simultaneously round a 30 foot loop without problems, although I don't have any Airfix-motored locos now. It can also successfully cope with my old Hornby Dublo stuff.

 

38 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Looking at the VA ratings of the other 3, they look like they are pretty close to the line too!

R914/R915 pulling anything over about 0.5amp for too long will kill them IIRC.

R911 would do a bit more.

The 16v wall plug transformer for R965 was not up to much other than a Caley Pug or GWR 101 with about 4 wagons.

 

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The R914 has a thermal cutout, which works very well if I remember rightly. Never burnt one out when I was a nipper.....

 

andy g

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On 18/11/2019 at 14:41, CloggyDog said:

Has the Hornby 31 chassis completely disintegrated, or just the outer ends? Either way, I'd look to bodge a replacement chassis (thick plasticard perhaps?) to re-use the Hornby motor and bogies, unless the chassis issues have also knackered the Hornby body?

 

The old Airfix 31 motor bogie, as already noted above, draws a lot of current compared to todays' models and it definitely sounds like your controller is tripping/re-setting. 

 

It's just both ends (at the moment,  at least for now), though the body moulding has a tiny split in the corners 

 

Can you give me more detail or is it a job of trying to botch it as best as I can?

 

Cheers,

 

Scott

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On ‎20‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 06:39, gobbler said:

 

It's just both ends (at the moment,  at least for now), though the body moulding has a tiny split in the corners 

 

Can you give me more detail or is it a job of trying to botch it as best as I can?

 

Cheers,

 

Scott

 

34C outlined the process in the post immediately below the one of mine you quoted.

 

Cut the 2 posts from inside the Airfix shell and slightly trim back the vertical inner ribs until the Airfix body is a nice tight push-fit onto the Hornby chassis.

 

If you want a more secure hold, you could fit a stretcher of thickish plasticard up in the top of the Airfix shell at both ends (just aft of the cabs) to align with the screw mounts through the Hornby chassis and drill out to accept the screws.

 

One minor thing to bear in mind is the centre body 'skirt' on the Airfix shell is under length (by about 4 scale feet), but it's not that noticeable. Might be worth trying the Hornby glazing in the Airfix shell, might be easier than cutting clear plasticard for flush glazing (been there, done that....)

Edited by CloggyDog
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The state of my 31.

 

All the buffer beams and coupling bits and bobs have just crumbled.

20191121_234339.jpg.fd04329f3d525c5939382a8e5f85e31c.jpg20191121_234316.jpg.dce297df2606b32db9cea2252dbeb650.jpg

 

As you can see, where the chassis has crumbled away ive tidied up the ends.  But what will become of the rest of the chassis through time????  Will the mazak rot eventually chew its way through that too?

 

Ive seen on the bay new guaranteed chassis for about £50.

 

The fan end of the lower cab has 2 small splits, nothing that i should be able to camouflage.  The other end appears to be ok.

 

I'll see what i can do, i might take the plunge and get a new chassis, though its really gutting as you can imagine.   I've never spent so much money on a loco before (though it was 10 years ago), and to think i may have to part with the little spare cash i have, rectifying hornbys manufacturers c*ck up the metal they used Grr!!!!

 

Cheers

 

Scott 

20191121_234502.jpg

Edited by gobbler

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6 hours ago, gobbler said:

The state of my 31.

 

All the buffer beams and coupling bits and bobs have just crumbled.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_11/20191121_234339.jpg.fd04329f3d525c5939382a8e5f85e31c.jpghttps://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_11/20191121_234316.jpg.dce297df2606b32db9cea2252dbeb650.jpg

 

As you can see, where the chassis has crumbled away ive tidied up the ends.  But what will become of the rest of the chassis through time????  Will the mazak rot eventually chew its way through that too?

 

Ive seen on the bay new guaranteed chassis for about £50.

 

The fan end of the lower cab has 2 small splits, nothing that i should be able to camouflage.  The other end appears to be ok.

 

I'll see what i can do, i might take the plunge and get a new chassis, though its really gutting as you can imagine.   I've never spent so much money on a loco before (though it was 10 years ago), and to think i may have to part with the little spare cash i have, rectifying hornbys manufacturers c*ck up the metal they used Grr!!!!

 

Cheers

 

Scott 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_11/20191121_234502.jpg.46267c5c3bee11259f7d3d094ce1d849.jpg

I wouldn't waste my time. The casting is one piece,  so it will eventually all return to dust!

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3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

I wouldn't waste my time. The casting is one piece,  so it will eventually all return to dust!

About 1964 I had a Trix Western. The chassis cracked and I braced it but it then went in a different place.

It was stored away and forgotten for 20 years by which time it was about 50 pieces of splintered metal. 

The upside was that the body, motor and bogies made a few pounds on ebay.

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10 hours ago, gobbler said:

 ...But what will become of the rest of the chassis through time????  Will the mazak rot eventually chew its way through that too?...

It will, but I have four bought cheap as afflicted with the rot, and none has become a non-runner yet. I'd get the life out of it; and you never know there may ne a new and better model some time soon...

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Thanks for the 31 comments and thoughts, but back to controllers for a second,  how about the H & M Duette,  I want to run 2 loco's at a time.  I've heard that they're built like tanks....any good?

 

I know H&M haven't been made in donkeys years 

 

Anyone?

 

Cheers,

 

Scott

Edited by gobbler

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I had one of those but it died. I now use a Gaugemaster D. 

Most of the old H&M controllers were OK but there was one which was prone to rectifier failure, van't remeber which one. The big thing is to make sure that the mains cable is not degraded or frayed

 

Edited by TheSignalEngineer

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6 hours ago, gobbler said:

Thanks for the 31 comments and thoughts, but back to controllers for a second,  how about the H & M Duette,  I want to run 2 loco's at a time.  I've heard that they're built like tanks....any good?

 

I know H&M haven't been made in donkeys years 

 

Anyone?

 

Cheers,

 

Scott

Plenty of other threads on these. Some love them, others hate them!

 

The main issue you'll have (apart from damaged mains cables already mentioned), is that most Duettes wont run modern locos that well (smoothly).

The reason I say most, is because the resistance mat in them, was available in different resistance ranges. If it was the 'standard' or lower, good luck stopping locos! The higher resistance ones were better. But apparently they aren't marked externally, so you have no way of telling without dismantling. If you don't already have one, no eBay seller or whatever is going to let you find out!

 

Buy something better.

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10 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Plenty of other threads on these. Some love them, others hate them!

 

The main issue you'll have (apart from damaged mains cables already mentioned), is that most Duettes wont run modern locos that well (smoothly).

The reason I say most, is because the resistance mat in them, was available in different resistance ranges. If it was the 'standard' or lower, good luck stopping locos! The higher resistance ones were better. But apparently they aren't marked externally, so you have no way of telling without dismantling. If you don't already have one, no eBay seller or whatever is going to let you find out!

 

Buy something better.

 

So, I'll be saving up for a gaugemaster then.

 

Im a bit of a numpty when it come to the electrics side of things, but give me a sheet of plastic and a wagon or coach is no problem.

 

Thanks

 

Scott

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