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rue_d_etropal

Modelshops -dealerships?

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Not sure if this is right place to tak about this, but I can't see anywhere else more suitable.

Given that there are far fewer real model railway shops these days, I wonder if we should not be making it easier for shops to trade.

It is not cheap to set up and run any shop, and for something as specialist as a model railway shop, should there be any restrictions on what they can sell. To clarify what I mean is , should manufacturers be able to refuse to sell to one shop just because there is already another shop 'in the area' being supplied. Obviously I would expect any shop to be run well, and look presentable, and display products in a manner that does not harm the reputation of the manufacturer.

In some areas towns are close and in others they are a far, but people will still prefer to use shops that are closest, and it fits in well with the idea to shop locally if you can actually buy what you want locally. If your local shop is not able to sell what you want, just because they can't get what you want, then you will seek out another supplier, either in another town, which might only be a short drive away, or use the internet. In either case your local shop, and town, is the loser.

So what I am suggesting is that assuming a shop is deemed competent enough to trade, then if it wants to sell a particular product, it should not be restricted from doing so , just because another shop in another town , near , is already selling that product.

 

If am lucky enough to have a model railway shop in my town or nearby, I would like to use it. If they don't stock what I want then I will go elsewhere. Simple as that, and ultimately that is not good for the hobby.

 

Imagine if I could only buy my favourite model railway magazine from one shop in the town, or even worse had to buy in from a shop in another town, as the publisher did not want too many shops selling it.

As I said, it is not easy to set up and run any shop, and even more difficult these days , partly because of the internet, so maybe it is time to be more flexible in the way shops are supplied.

I have deliberately not mentioned names, sometimes misunderstandings result from mis-information and rumours, but a few years ago, one local person did start up a model railway shop, but could not get one manufacturer to supply him, simply because there was another 'dealer' in the area. As that 'dealer' did not supply enough of the range, one local model railway club contacted the manufacturer to complain, and the manufacturer then offered to supply the new shop. Unfortunately this new shop, partly, but not totally because of this problem had then decided it was too much trouble and was closing the shop.

Everyone says it is important to support their local shops, so why make it more difficult that it could be.

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I’m not sure what your point is.

 

As I’m sure a car manufacturer wouldn’t let me set up a dealership right next door to one they already  supply - the manufacturer also put demands on the dealership as well in order to let them sell their models .

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Model railway shops, like many other types of high street shop, are closing because of internet buying. This is undoubtedly the modern trend and will only increase. You may not like it but you can't buck the trend. I don't think that all the talk about reviving the high street will succeed. You have to recognise change and adapt to it.

 

It reminds me of mathematics teachers who tried to stop the use of calculators. I always told them that their arguments would have some weight if they confirmed that they didn't use a washing machine and did all their washing by hand.

 

Robert

 

Edit. I'm lucky that Rails of Sheffield is only anout 35 miles away but they only have an actual shop because of their huge online sales.

Edited by Robert Stokes
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Hmm, interesting subject. Presuming the internet didn't exist. If you could have just one 'Licenced dealer' per area/town,  and you would have to pay premium/RRP as there are no other alternatives. this sounds like 'Protectionism'. But go the other way into a free for all which could result with a number of shops with expensive stock sitting on their shelfs and not selling enough to stay in business because the shop down the road sells the samething.    You end up with neither. but as Robert says,  the real killer is the Internet.

 

Regards,

Neil

 

Ps  another school maths story. I was probably a member of the last of the generation that learnt logarithms. One one of my class mates challenged the teacher with, 'why bother when there are calulators' the teacher replied 'Ah but what happens if you don't have a calculator with you?' the pupil rightly replied 'the same as if you don't have a log book with you!'  there was no further answer from the teacher.

Edited by neilkirby
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I’m sure I’ve read that Bachmann, Peco and possibly other suppliers require a retailer to have a physical retail shop with reasonable opening hours. So presumably the'd see how close another retailer was to a new outlet before supplying stock. The reps do visit shops, I was in my local one recently when one of the reps was looking in the display cabinets to keep an eye on things.

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I wonder what people would think if texhibitions were only allowed to have one 'dealer' per exhibition. Imagine the effect that would have on exibitions given that without trade support(ie trade stands) there would not be as many exhibitions. Some exhibitions even have both dealers/tradrs and the manufacturers, all selling from the same range,

THee s a big difference between model railways and car selling. Car dealerships work in partnership with the manufacturer, and a lot of information flows between them. There are alos bigger issues with respect to warranty and recall.

 

many shops buy from wholsellers, and some model railway stuff is traded this way, with no problem. The manufacturer has no control over who buys from the wholeseller, so very likely could end up with 2 shops in same town selling same items.

Talk of the internet is a bit of a red herring. Anything that makes it harder to trade from a proper shop should be removed, instead of making it even harder.  Also people are more likely to buy the glamourous items from cheapest source such as on internet, but when it comes to the regular needs such as track, rail joiners , paint, glue then many would happily buy from a real(local) shop.  I only tend to use internet as I don't have a local shop, and curretly don't have a car, so getting , even to next town can be difficult.

I agree that in many ways the High Street is doomed, and I do wish some authorities would realise that and look at new schemes for town centres, but trouble is , on paper, High Street shops equate to money for authorities, and some can't understand that how ever much something is worth on paper, if you don't actually have those shops you are not getting the money.

I think someone has suggested, and I agre that we should be getting more people to live in towns, not further away from them. Response from some authorities is that they know what they are doing, but I don't think they do.

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Some things I have noticed.

Model shops were already closing well before the internet. Changing interests?

I remember loads in Birmingham most had gone before the net, they are obviously not the most profitable shops to run with tight margins.

Likewise electronic component shops.

(The same with pubs, closure blamed on smoking bans but were already closing in droves before any smoking bans, due to changing drinking habits.)

A good model shop with an internet presence can be successful and can also be on a high street.

Ian Allan in Birmingham closed not because of lack of trade but due to the site owner wanting to redevelop the whole block. The cost of finding another site at reasonable rent and fitting it out was not considered worthwhile.

 

EDIT High streets were probably doomed the moment the large out of town shopping centres were built.

Many high streets have little or no parking and sometimes severe parking restrictions or high charges.

With the average UK resident wedded to their car and enticed by free parking it was a no brainer.

 

Edited by melmerby
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The field and range of model railway products has expanded dramatically over the past few decades.  For a bricks and mortar only model shop to survive, it needs to hold a ready to supply, stock of all the products it knows it can sell to a walk-in customer.  That implies (actually requires) a massively larger inventory to store and finance than it needed in 1970.  Just look at the livery and number/name options of even the simplest big two RTR products.  The only way to start a B&M model shop today is with a huge monetary investment.

 

Hence the rise of build to order technology, only sold direct, from a  single central facility, or near monopoly, huge on-line suppliers, or smaller on-line specialists suppliers with a unique, legally or economically, protected product line.  They are the only economically viable solutions now.

 

Tim

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On 20/11/2019 at 10:34, rob D2 said:

I’m not sure what your point is.

 

Neither am I, especially considering my next point.

 

On 20/11/2019 at 10:49, Robert Stokes said:

You have to recognise change and adapt to it.

 

There is an irony that the OP sells products, which are not available in retail outlets,  via an online service.

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From experience I can say that the demise in hobby and shopd selling model railway products are many fold, the nternet is but one.

Others include the advancement in electronic entertainment

lack of space in new homes, rooms are not big enough, and attics are not strong enough.

Cost is another factor,

From what I've seen of customers that came in my shop the hobby is literally dying, I would say the average age of the few cutomers I had was well into the 60's, and I had only two or three regulars aged under 15.

i was told I was more expensve than certain shops in Liverpool [Widnes] and Sheffield, when I could prove I wasn't. It got to the point where I flet that if I priced something up for nothing I would get some bright spark asking me for discount.

There seems to be this trait where no matter what you price some thing at, model railway enthusiasts expect more discount, and because of this and the reasons stated above less and less model shops will sell model railways, and more will go out of business, so get used to shopping online, and when you only have a choice of two or three shops to go to, then watch out, because the tail will be wagging the dog.

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On 20/11/2019 at 05:49, Robert Stokes said:

Model railway shops, like many other types of high street shop, are closing because of internet buying. This is undoubtedly the modern trend and will only increase. You may not like it but you can't buck the trend. I don't think that all the talk about reviving the high street will succeed. You have to recognize change and adapt to it.

 

The Internet is certainly a factor, but so is the diversity of product that we now have.

 

Back in the for random example 80s, it would be easy to open a model railway shop - rents were relatively speaking cheap, 1 or 2 new items a year and almost everything permanently available to order means you didn't need a large space and could get away with a small inventory (aka small capital investment).  And for the most part everything would sell at list price, giving you a healthy margin to pay the costs and a salary for yourself.

 

In the last 20 years, things have changed.  High street rents have become unaffordable, the Internet makes it easier for a handful of retailers who took the gamble to take sales away from you, there is an expectation of discounting that eats into your margins, etc.

 

But you also can't get away without stocking inventory now.  You really have to know your market and have business sense to know what to order and stock so it sells in 3 months when it becomes hard to get, and you need the bigger premises to display that inventory (you also need a bigger space so that you are more welcoming).

 

This means it is more difficult and expensive to operate a store, and thus it has a weeding out effect leaving only (for the most part) healthier and more dedicated retailers.

 

I think it is beneficial to have physical retail stores supplying the hobby, but the changes mean that it is fewer shops but in general better shops.

 

As for the point of the original post, an insinuation that a local store failed because one of the manufacturers wouldn't supply them, I would point out that there could be many reasons for that refusal that had little to do with another nearby retailer.

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Another point touched on earlier but not really expanded upon is the change in manufacturers' production strategies.

 

Time was, as stated, when a producer would always have his xxx available for the trade to purchase and for the public to buy.  Maybe after a few years to be replaced by an equally good yyy.  Now those few years are a few weeks for most new releases.  This means the traders shelves are not going to be as full (relative to the  number of releases) as they were.  There is less to attract the casual buyer.  It is either last weeks new release or probably some slow moving dog of a product.  So what is to entice a customer through the doors?  Especially if the same offering is available from their armchair.    

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At one time it was possible to stock most items , but not only is that more difficult these days(too many, and often in short supply), but maybe shops should aim more for the bread and butter items which are not usually discounted. How often have you run out of rail joiners,paint or glue and as a result you are stuck.You can't wait for an internet delivery, so you pop down to the local model railway shop, assuming you have one and it is open.

If you are just running a shop to make money, then you are in the wrong business. Helpful friendly advice works wonders. Being honest with customrs, might upset some in the business but people tend to respect honesty and will return to a shop that doesn't try to rip them off or doesn't get stuff in you ask for, and will grumble about bad service, often to their friends who may then not use that shop.

I actualy talk topeople, and have talked to some of those involved in the issue that prompted me to post here, and on one side it was a feeling that the supplier(or  possibly the reps) could not  be bothered, and on the other, 'I am the local dealer' and (I don't want competion locally).

One reason why some companes might prefer to only deal with a limited number of shops, might be the normal practice of credit. It always eemed odd, being given one month's credit only worked once. After that you are in effect having to pay , and I would prefer to start out paying up front and then paying for each order. One reason why I have suggested the idea of a Co-op run by local  enthusiasts. It is a proven, and very successful, sustainable business model. Trouble is with this hobby, is far too many expect someone else to do it.

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I thought at least one, if not two, of the big manufacturers only sold to companies with bricks and mortar establishments. (I realise there is an issue with one of the wholesalers selling on to anyone).

 

I also thought that rents were not the problem they once were (at least outside London) and that major rates relief was due.

 

Having seen at least three, very significant retailers start much from scratch in the last twenty years, with amply stocked shops, an ability to order anything they did not have, and all with superb internet sites, there is a retail model that works. Why, for example, did yet another major retailer open a branch in Guildford just recently?

 

Having lived through around 50 years of prediction of demise of the hobby, but with it now having perhaps the largest number of suppliers ever, plus the largest number of RTR models available, ever, I despair at the doom-mongers. What recent times do tell us is that you need some business acumen to run a model railway shop these days, not like the many, less professional establishments of yore.

 

PS - what amazes me most, is Parrs of Lowestoft (which many moons ago was my local retailer), recently adopted by the daughter of the original owner. No web site, but they seem to have a thriving business, despite internet competition. She does provide a very good service, and has a good range of stock. So it can be done.

Edited by Mike Storey
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22 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

At one time it was possible to stock most items , but not only is that more difficult these days(too many, and often in short supply), but maybe shops should aim more for the bread and butter items which are not usually discounted.

 

The problem is that those items generally cost so little, and thus have so little profit, that it can be difficult paying the bills only selling those sorts of products.

 

22 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

I actualy talk topeople, and have talked to some of those involved in the issue that prompted me to post here, and on one side it was a feeling that the supplier(or  possibly the reps) could not  be bothered,

 

I have lost track of how many times Hornby management has changed recently, but there was in the not to far past a management team that decided direct sales was the solution to the financial problems and you can find comments on RMweb from shop owners about their frustrations during that period in dealing with Hornby.

 

Fortunately that has since changed with a renewed focus on retailers.

 

4 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

Having seen at least three, very significant retailers start much from scratch in the last twenty years, with amply stocked shops, an ability to order anything they did not have, and all with superb internet sites, there is a retail model that works. Why, for example, did yet another major retailer open a branch in Guildford just recently?

 

Exactly.  There is a viable way to run a shop, but you need the capital and the ability to know your market and how to run a business.

 

4 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

Having lived through around 50 years of prediction of demise of the hobby, but with it now having perhaps the largest number of suppliers ever, plus the largest number of RTR models available, ever, I despair at the doom-mongers.

 

One would think after years of proclaiming the hobby dying they would look around, notice the hobby still exists, and revise their opinion.

 

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15 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

Having lived through around 50 years of prediction of demise of the hobby, but with it now having perhaps the largest number of suppliers ever, plus the largest number of RTR models available, ever, I despair at the doom-mongers.

 

6 minutes ago, mdvle said:

One would think after years of proclaiming the hobby dying they would look around, notice the hobby still exists, and revise their opinion.

 

I think a lot of this stems from the fact that for the hobby to survive, everyone who departs for that great model railway in the sky needs to be replaced with a new entrant to the hobby.  That is a fact.  The problem is that there seems to be a perception among many of the doom-mongers that new entrants to the hobby must be children: if we can't encourage children or teenagers to take up model railways as a hobby then the hobby will be finished.  The reality is of course that new entrants to the hobby can be any age.  The reason that the hobby continues to survive is that many of the new entrants to the hobby are older individuals who have a job and are looking for something to help them relax in the evenings after work or they have recently retired and are looking for something to fill their time.  For as long as the number of people entering the hobby each year (of whatever age) matches the number who depart, the hobby will survive.

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45 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

 

 

I think a lot of this stems from the fact that for the hobby to survive, everyone who departs for that great model railway in the sky needs to be replaced with a new entrant to the hobby.  That is a fact.  The problem is that there seems to be a perception among many of the doom-mongers that new entrants to the hobby must be children: if we can't encourage children or teenagers to take up model railways as a hobby then the hobby will be finished.  The reality is of course that new entrants to the hobby can be any age.  The reason that the hobby continues to survive is that many of the new entrants to the hobby are older individuals who have a job and are looking for something to help them relax in the evenings after work or they have recently retired and are looking for something to fill their time.  For as long as the number of people entering the hobby each year (of whatever age) matches the number who depart, the hobby will survive.

spot on, one reason I don't like exhibitions having free entry for children(accompanied) , as they are not the target audience for the hobby long term, but nothing wrong in having family tickets as this feels more natural.

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45 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

spot on, one reason I don't like exhibitions having free entry for children(accompanied) , as they are not the target audience for the hobby long term, but nothing wrong in having family tickets as this feels more natural.

 

I'm not sure that I understand your rational.  Family tickets are a way of reducing the cost of admission for those with children, except that the discount on child admission can only be had if there are two parents.  That means that family tickets effectively discriminate against single parents. Ultimately, if a show is not targeting the family market then I have no issue with accompanied children being free if that is the pricing structure that the organisers choose.

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Events have had family tickets for a long time. Not always has to be 2 parents. Even with only one it can save money. Thing is , the hobby needs to target those who will sustain the hobby, and as it said above it is more likely to be those returning, or taking  it up in later years, possibly when retiring. It makes sense to market it at that group.

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2 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

spot on, one reason I don't like exhibitions having free entry for children(accompanied) , as they are not the target audience for the hobby long term, but nothing wrong in having family tickets as this feels more natural.

 

4 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

Events have had family tickets for a long time. Not always has to be 2 parents. Even with only one it can save money. Thing is , the hobby needs to target those who will sustain the hobby, and as it said above it is more likely to be those returning, or taking  it up in later years, possibly when retiring. It makes sense to market it at that group.

 

 A family ticket is generally accepted as being a reduced rate for 2 adults and 2 children, most events price them the same as 2 adults and one child, effectively having one child free.  I assume that the comment 'not always has to be 2 parents' to mean that it doesn't have to be the childs parents but a related family member. This is possible but is usually at the discretion of the exhibition, as there may be safeguarding issues with unrelated adults and children where the ticketing assumes there is a family link.

 

Exhibitions that give free entry for children obviously see it as worthwhile to do so. I have run the door on a successful exhibition for 20 years and have noted that although Dad maybe the returnee to the hobby, by bringing his son/daughter along means the spend with traders is generally increased. 

 

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On 17/11/2019 at 13:24, rue_d_etropal said:

Given that there are far fewer real model railway shops these days,

 

Do you have any numbers for this? Talking to the trade, the number of outlets isn't falling as fast as some like to say. In fact, both red and blue box suppliers are finding new outlets.

 

15 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

Talk of the internet is a bit of a red herring. Anything that makes it harder to trade from a proper shop should be removed, instead of making it even harder.  Also people are more likely to buy the glamourous items from cheapest source such as on internet, but when it comes to the regular needs such as track, rail joiners , paint, glue then many would happily buy from a real(local) shop.

 

So the low-overhead Internet can have the big purchases with a reasonable markup. High-overhead model shops can scrabble around with tiny sales and almost no profit.

 

12 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

Having lived through around 50 years of prediction of demise of the hobby, but with it now having perhaps the largest number of suppliers ever, plus the largest number of RTR models available, ever, I despair at the doom-mongers.

 

Spot on. People have been repeating the same doom-laden warnings for over half a century. The Internet has just made repeating them easier, not made them any truer. Now, I must head out to a big tin shed in Solihull where I understand there might be a few people interested in toy trains...

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5 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

People have been repeating the same doom-laden warnings for over half a century.

Yes, in the early 1960s people were telling us that slot car racing was the place to be. Throw away your trains, plastic model kits and toy soldiers. No-one  predicted that they would all be around and popular approaching 2020.

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9 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

Events have had family tickets for a long time. Not always has to be 2 parents. Even with only one it can save money. Thing is , the hobby needs to target those who will sustain the hobby, and as it said above it is more likely to be those returning, or taking  it up in later years, possibly when retiring. It makes sense to market it at that group.

 

I agree that exhibition managers need to cater for the needs of their target group and in many cases that is probably older people taking up the hobby.  However, it is also normal practise to price an event such that the target group pay more for their entertainment than those who are simply accompanying the interested party.  There used to be a soft play centre near my office where there was an admission charge of something like £8 or £9 per child, but accompanying adults were free (although there was also a time that they charged adults an admission fee of £1).  Offering free child admission to accompany an interested adult to a model railway event is simply the reverse idea: charge the target market.

 

There are plenty of museums and the like which offer free child admission.  The age restrictions often vary depending on how interesting the museum is likely to be to children.  That is why some seem to operate on the policy that under 5's are free, while others don't charge for children under 10 or 12.

 

As for family tickets, I've rarely seen family tickets that offer savings for single parent families as they are normally priced on the basis of being the same cost as two adults and one child, meaning that the second and sometimes third child are free.  Yes, the two adults don't need to be the children's parents - I visited one venue with my brother-in-law and my two children under a family ticket, but in general family tickets do not offer value for money for a single father with two children.

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42 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Do you have any numbers for this? Talking to the trade, the number of outlets isn't falling as fast as some like to say. In fact, both red and blue box suppliers are finding new outlets.

 

 

So the low-overhead Internet can have the big purchases with a reasonable markup. High-overhead model shops can scrabble around with tiny sales and almost no profit.

 

 

Spot on. People have been repeating the same doom-laden warnings for over half a century. The Internet has just made repeating them easier, not made them any truer. Now, I must head out to a big tin shed in Solihull where I understand there might be a few people interested in toy trains...

 

 I dont have any numbers  but I have experience of whats going on in Central Scotland

 

Back in the late 70s/ 80s there were 4 model shops, at least in Central Glasgow  Argyle Models, Railmail (that became D&F models), Scale Models Scotland and one whose name I forget in Cambridge street . In addition there was John Menzies that sold Hornby .  Now theres 0.   There is a very small shop in Partick , but which carries  little model railway stock so I dont really think is in the same category as these shops.    We had a shop MacKay Models in Paisley, gone . For a while there was a small dealer operating out of industrial premises in Paisley ....gone .   Going further afield , the shop in Helensborough Macs Models , gone , although I think part of the business was sold to someone in Angus.  Now the shop in Falkirk....gone , although they still organise the monthly swapmeets .   And yet I think there are possibly more people modelling railways in the area than ever before . No I dont have figures , but the hobby sustains Model Rail Scotland at SECC in Glasgow every year and more local shows than ever  Ayr,Johnstone,Greenock,Cathcart,Bonnybridge, Falkirk, Troon, Irvine.  So the market still seems to be there but no shops.

 

We hear similar stories elsewhere eg Newcastle , Manchester . So I really dont think we need numbers to substantiate what really we all know .

 

The model railway business still seems to be thriving , but it has changed and Model Railway retailers are getting hard to find . On the other hand theres the growth of the Internet , Hattons(who had huge mail order before internet), Rails, Kernow  and I think thats the trend that will continue . It may get to the stage that visiting a Model Railway Shop is a day out , something special. You can see Rails already going down that route. A day trip to Edinburgh , perhaps , to see Harburn and Model Wonderland in Lothian Road. Edinburgh appears to be my nearest large model shop now.

 

Setting up a new model railway shop would be tricky. The capital involved in getting initial stock is huge , thats if you can get what you want , because of batch manufacturing you may just have to take what the manufacturer has got . Is that whats going to sell though? Thats without considering rent, rates , salaries heating etc  Really huge barriers to entry at the moment.

 

Edited by Legend

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3 minutes ago, Legend said:

Thats without considering rent, rates , salaries heating etc  Really huge barriers to entry at the moment.

 

There seems to be an idea that high street rates have increased over the last few years when in reality for smaller shops they have reduced and in some cases are zero.

 

As an example I purchased a shop and the rates bill for the last 4 years has been zero each year.  It had 2 floors plus a basement, the retail area on the ground floor was 340 square feet, the second floor was the same. The building would have been a suitable size for a model shop. Other shops nearby which are larger are also exempt from business rates.

The increase in high st rates was/is paid by the large retailers with 1000's of square feet. 

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